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Should ALL trades be final?

Should ALL trades be final?

  • Yes

    Votes: 40 61.5%

  • No - I want to be able to loan items securely.

    Votes: 25 38.5%
  • Total voters
    65
matthew

matthew

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Joined
Mar 4, 2007
Posts
2,768
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England
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freelancer
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Sir Matt Copping
I am interested in hearing peoples views on whether all trades should be final or not?

My point is if there is clear evidence of a verbal (or in this case a text based conversation) which shows that the intent of the transaction is to be merely a temporary loan of the item in which both parties have agreed too - should the trade be final in the eyes of MA.

I'm not talking about chat logs but print screens of the conversation which are harder to falsify and also MA probably keeps official chat logs which of course we cannot access to falsify. Modifying the trade window to provide an option for loan and loan duration would be enough to hard code evidence, the loaner could then receive a proof of loan in the same way that the bank loans work.

Either MA could have the final decision to confiscate the item and return it to its original owner or a randomly selected jury could. If an official system was in place the item could automatically return when the loan period expires.

In my personal opinion the fact that "all trades are final" and that there is no system for the loaning of personal items, seriously restricts the potential opportunities that EU offers and generally negatively impacts the growth of the economy.

I am interested to hear other others thoughts on the subject :)
 
Oh I love the jury idea! Then we are starting to talk about a real virtual world, a real community with trial , judged by your peers and consequences! Rather than be at the mercy of ma. Of course might be completely impractical but sounds fun!
 
Loaning systems, we asked that many years.
 
Alainax said:
Oh I love the jury idea! Then we are starting to talk about a real virtual world, a real community with trial , judged by your peers and consequences! Rather than be at the mercy of ma. Of course might be completely impractical but sounds fun!
Click to expand...

thanks for the post :)

I really agree, if we want to be a self governing world then it is important we self govern justice and consequence and in some respects set out our own "rules". If we want a loaning system then we should be free to implement that system ourself if MA is not prepared to do the coding work.
 
I guess we've had enough trouble with virtual politicians lately to even think about virtual lawyers. :laugh:

A fully automated system would probably nice, although:
  • for it to happen, MA needs to develop a basic item lock system first- it's been asked for for how many years?
  • the interface must be completely different from trade interface, to avoid any confusion.
 
Haruto Rat said:
A fully automated system would probably nice, although:
  • for it to happen, MA needs to develop a basic item lock system first- it's been asked for for how many years?
  • the interface must be completely different from trade interface, to avoid any confusion.
Click to expand...

more than 10 :)
 
"All trades are final" have been proven wrong on many occasions.

"A loan system" already exist in the form of ingame banks.

Food for thoughts.


Conclusion :

All trades already are not really final.

Loan system already exist and could be expanded.
(Ingame Banks need to be able to do business tho).
 
i would like to loan a fap but i cant afford the collateral cost.

so i agree with a loan sistem between players.

this is a way to create new jobs .
 
Implementing a loaning/renting system would be cool.

But if you use trade window and agree to the 2nd confirmation yes you authorized the trade to be final. The second window makes sure you have your collateral and it can't be removed before you accept the trade. If you do a personal agreement without collateral that is no-ones problem besides yours and the person you traded with. MA nor anyone else should even care about the politics of that transaction. MA should only care if error occurred in trade and item was lost because of bug glitch.
 
matthew said:
I am interested in hearing peoples views on whether all trades should be final or not?

My point is if there is clear evidence of a verbal (or in this case a text based conversation) which shows that the intent of the transaction is to be merely a temporary loan of the item in which both parties have agreed too - should the trade be final in the eyes of MA.

I'm not talking about chat logs but print screens of the conversation which are harder to falsify and also MA probably keeps official chat logs which of course we cannot access to falsify. Modifying the trade window to provide an option for loan and loan duration would be enough to hard code evidence, the loaner could then receive a proof of loan in the same way that the bank loans work.

Either MA could have the final decision to confiscate the item and return it to its original owner or a randomly selected jury could. If an official system was in place the item could automatically return when the loan period expires.

In my personal opinion the fact that "all trades are final" and that there is no system for the loaning of personal items, seriously restricts the potential opportunities that EU offers and generally negatively impacts the growth of the economy.

I am interested to hear other others thoughts on the subject :)
Click to expand...

First of all you have put two totally different things in same idea. One is trading (ALL TRADES MUST BE FINAL - it is impossible for MA or any JURY to have 100% confidence that it really happened like one party is claiming it did, no screenshot, is valid enough, (You provide screenshot, other participant says you called him in real life and made a bet which you lost and you agreed outside of game that you can keep the item)) If trade takes place, be ready that other participant doesnt give the item back.

About lending system to be had, i agree this could be beneficial for all parties (But also it could possibly lead to situation where it is even harder for regular joes to compete in events, all top 10 places are gained with lent Terminator or something like this).

Trading system SHOULDNT and COULDNT be used for lending items. If just a screenshot or chat log or whatever proof is needed for trade to be reversed i have plenty of ideas how to get back my spent peds and also to keep the items (specially if you manage to contact the player outside the game, and even if not, there are quite a few scenarios i can come up with, which would make the other party look like a scammer)
 
I sent this support case in back in 2015 with my idea for a loan system.



2015-06-11 09:49 You wrote:


Hi Support
While I am sat here patiently awaiting the next VU ... (space cough space )

I was thinking about something that you may have been asked for in the past and that is an item loan feature.

However my suggestion may be different, in that no item will actually have a loan feature on it by default , this will have to be requested from you by the owner and you place a charge to do this of say 1000-5000 ped. (this would avoid frivious loaning and probably a lot of support work)

The modified item then when traded has a checkbox ( is this a loan? ) and a time period for the loan.
Once the loan period expires the item returns to its owner.

Also make it VERY obvious within the trade agreement that a item loan is what is taking place , not a normal trade.

The loan modification would not be tradeable , ie if the item is traded and it is not a loan just a normal trade then the loan feature is lost and would have to be re requested by the new owner.
Additionaly an item on loan would not be tradeable by the person borrowing it
Click to expand...

They of course responded with the normal response.

Side note : was it really back in 2015 space upgrades were expected / promised.
 
MA do not want to implement loan items system and will never happen.
Its from start that players asked for soc storage where leader can recall any loaned item back from actual user even if is he offline.
Systems witch could work is already developed and used for banks, for space ship etc but MA don't want to implement it for loaning or borrowing or for society storage.

We have also avatar bound items, non tradable items, items witch cant be sold in TT an more so there are many ways and code to do it already in game, also any new item generated by game have unique id.
 
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The trade terminal will gladly loan you L items these days... and gladly pay you tt value on the loaned item when your loan period is done. (in other words, watch what you are asking for or about, as it may be interpreted the wrong way... Asking for no trades to be final is one way of asking for the TT to be removed all together in the eyes of someone somewhere)
 
We will never have or had "final trades" even if MA told that we have few times and they will never do any coding so we can have save loaning system because with save loaning is les money to MA because we dont need to buy so much and put in money in the game to be able to buy all the items we need.:wise:
 
whiteknut said:
First of all you have put two totally different things in same idea. One is trading (ALL TRADES MUST BE FINAL - it is impossible for MA or any JURY to have 100% confidence that it really happened like one party is claiming it did, no screenshot, is valid enough, (You provide screenshot, other participant says you called him in real life and made a bet which you lost and you agreed outside of game that you can keep the item)) If trade takes place, be ready that other participant doesnt give the item back.
Click to expand...

I understand your point and will address it.

Under the current system if I wish to lend someone an item and all parties agree to the lending conditions, I must still transfer this item via a trade using the trading system. In the case that the item isn't returned then I believe I should be able to petition MA or a jury to have that item manually returned. However under the current system "all trades are final" in which case MA/Jury would throw my case out because the transaction was committed via a trade.

If there was an independent loaning system then I could use this and the trading system could remain with "all trades are final" (this would be the ideal solution). However we do not have a lending system and so we are forced to use the trading system to facilitate lending.

We must work within the confines of what we have, we have a trading system but we do not have a leading system. Relaxing the condition of "all trades are final" would allow the trading system to be used as a secure lending system.


As you say there can never be 100% confidence that the proof of the lend is valid but then there can never be 100% confidence in anything. This is why we have juries of 12 that carefully consider the evidence and return the best possible judgement which is accepted as final. Sometimes they might make mistakes but we must trust that on the whole their judgement will be good.
 
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No. There should be a 90-day satisfaction guarantee or your money back. Especially on PED sales.
 
Alainax said:
Oh I love the jury idea! Then we are starting to talk about a real virtual world, a real community with trial , judged by your peers and consequences! Rather than be at the mercy of ma. Of course might be completely impractical but sounds fun!
Click to expand...

Right now you are not at mercy of MA because they don't get involved at all. But if OP has his way, you might end up at the mercy of the jury. Instead of cold predictable machine of MA you get a bunch of people with feelings that can be easily manipulated.

Now imagine a situation. You happily sell some item to raise money for some other item. Next day the guy who bought your item outcries on the forum that the trade should be reverted because he was higher than dunkel markup very tired after a full day of helping old ladies cross the street, otherwise he would never buy a rugaritz-textured bodystocking for 10k peds, because it's an ounce of crack which he would rather have right now, even though he loooves bodystockings, and now feels devastated (that you better believe, if you only could have seen him yesterday). With whom jury will side, you think, a respected social worker or a peddler of decadent lingerie? :D

Jokes aside, trades should not be final, but it should all be automated. Delayed auction listing, locking of freshly traded items for 2-3 minutes with an option of trade reversal and so on, no fallible humans involved.
 
Who honestly believes they can design a LOAN system that:

  • Won't be used to TRICK newbies, thinking they are buying items super cheap, only to find they lose them within a few days
  • Won't be used to TRICK drunk players, who oh, I dunno, are the kind who accidentally TT'd big items instead of repairing them.
  • Won't let someone trade/TT/sell the loaned item before it must be returned
In short, can't be used to cheat any more then current P2P trades are these days. Otherwise, we're simply trading one system complained about for two.

EDIT:
And YES, all trades should be final.
 
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All TRADES should be FINAL--The banks provide a loan service now though it is nowhere near what it should be. Either fix the Banks loan service to allow for timed loaned items OR provide a separate estate for purchase with these capabilities but without the ability to "Pawn" an item--meaning a rental shop only.
I don't think this is something they should just allow any player to have the ability to do via the current trade system. I think it should be something you have to invest for, manage, and be held accountable for.

The Rental shop owner can then provide collateral for those items he doesn't own but wants to rent out from others. I fear if you give this ability to all players--we will have players that automatically set this up so items change hands between 3 guys playing 24 hours a day in 8 hour shifts--this would push demands (and MU) way down.

By doing it through a shop you can have the rentals but maintain the demand to own.
 
I liked the idea of a loan system, until someone (can't recall who) pointed out that all the top guns would never be sold and held by the 1%. most of the top items are looted by the same people and it would be more beneficial to loan these instead of selling them, and then in turn would cause the MU to rise due to less supply, benefitting them further. This could end up with you having to Loan, use (L) or loot yourself.
 
I think the problem with rentals is that they would potentially lower MU. Now we are not saving up to buy a 2k ped item because we can just wait and rent it for a few peds. The demand to buy drops, the price drops, etc. The banks are mislabeled because they are really pawn shops - when I was noob I was excited that maybe I could make some interest if I deposit peds :). So then, aside from retail demand dropping, the price of bank deeds would also be affected as well as their income. Also, players are generating peds from the same item over and over and not going out to craft more or hunt for more.
 
Svarog said:
Right now you are not at mercy of MA because they don't get involved at all. But if OP has his way, you might end up at the mercy of the jury. Instead of cold predictable machine of MA you get a bunch of people with feelings that can be easily manipulated.

Now imagine a situation. You happily sell some item to raise money for some other item. Next day the guy who bought your item outcries on the forum that the trade should be reverted because he was higher than dunkel markup very tired after a full day of helping old ladies cross the street, otherwise he would never buy a rugaritz-textured bodystocking for 10k peds, ....
Click to expand...

Yes yes I hear you... but Judge Bonnie has a ring to it don't you think? Could make a hit TV show.... :laugh:

;)

In all seriousness, we grow ever closer to a real community, with real world problems. MA will struggle to maintain a one size fits all approach to all situations. Impartiality is hard to find withing the general public never mind a smaller sample player base - however there should be some consideration given to the idea of a peer council having a voice in such matters.
 
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Death penalty would be so easy too

just put a magnet where the account info resides
 
Iam the only one who like that all trades are final ? I like simple rules that are easy to understand. Be aware, any exeption from a rule will be used against you at some point.

If i do a deal i want to be secure that the deal is done and i can move on without being afraid i have to take back the item or paying back the money. Also, what others said, if we get a secure loan system some items wont be available anymore for purchase because it will become a buissnes to rent them out and like all things that can create money in EU prices will skyrock for those items. This can't be in the best interest of the bigger part of our community.
 
Damn bad idea fairies are out again.

Use the bank.. it's what it's for.
 
xXSqUaLLXx said:
"All trades are final" have been proven wrong on many occasions.

"A loan system" already exist in the form of ingame banks.

Food for thoughts.


Conclusion :

All trades already are not really final.

Loan system already exist and could be expanded.
(Ingame Banks need to be able to do business tho).
Click to expand...


exactly, rather than an independent loan system it would be neat if bank could act as an escrow service in this case.
 
Any evidence of agreements can be falsified.

A separate loan system should be developed that looks different to trading.

Also item lock option on any item to prevent accidental trading/loaning/TTing/Auctioning.
 
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