Approved (shared) alts?

An old and (apparently) trustworthy player told me recently this:

To make a management avatar, you just need to send a support case to Mindark explaining the reason for it and have it approved so that if reported as an alt you have a record of it. Shop owners and Ship owners (where the shop is owned by multiple people) were the biggest reason for it since Mindark can't come up with a way to "Share" ownership of anything in this game.

Now thing is that I was not able to find any such mention in EULA or otherwise and from what I previously understood:

- having more than one avatar is not allowed; the only legal way to have a second avatar is to ask for termination of the previous one

- there is no such thing as supported "sharing ownership"; each avatar has a single legal owner (making the relation between avatar and people one-to-one: a single avatar per person, a single person behind any avatar), and while sharing the avatar is not really disallowed, it is done at own risk and as far as MA is concerned they will consider that it was the legal owner behind it at all times.

So... what's the truth?

1) Can alts be legally allowed (if requested, for legit reasons, like managing shops on different planets)?

2) Is it allowed to share your avatar (taking the risk that if the other person does something bad you are responsible)?

3) Is there any legal "shared" form of ownership (either over avatars, deeds or items)?

Please note that all questions are from a legal / rules POV, not something like "people do it for ages" or "just make a second account for your siblings, parents, kids, aunts, uncles, cousins, nephews, dogs, cats and so on".

Also please note that I don't have any stance on this; is simply a curiosity question and I think it would be best for everyone to have some clear answers that send the things back in the white/black areas, instead of leaving them in the gray one.

DoA said:

Please note that all questions are from a legal / rules POV, not something like "people do it for ages" or "just make a second account for your siblings, parents, kids, aunts, uncles, cousins, nephews, dogs, cats and so on".

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If you want a legal perspective on this, put in a support case. Asking membership won't get you what you are asking for. MA will be the only one to answer in the way you are looking for.

I guess if one was to start a company then the avatar could be owned by the company. It might work as a nice option for people who want to do shared ownership.

Companies are seen as independent entities so the accounts wouldn't be alts per se...

Sionkiewicz said:

If you want a legal perspective on this, put in a support case. Asking membership won't get you what you are asking for. MA will be the only one to answer in the way you are looking for.

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Made that thing (placing the support ticket) at the same time, but we all know that MA support are not really fast on answering (on not time critical) tickets, so I don't expect to get an answer from there fast.

That's the reason of this post, to get additional POVs in the mean time (maybe someone can confirm what that guy told me - maybe they done that in the past - sending such a ticket and being allowed, etc).

Of course, when I'll have an official answer to my ticket, I'll post that one too here, but in the mean time looking for answers from people that (tried to) did that in the past.

Well there are several approved alts in this game.
And it is legal to let someone else play your avatar.

But in all cases the risk is all yours:
-if someone else playing your avatar gives away all your stuff, it's gone and MA won't help you.
-if someone else playing your avatar gets you banned, don't expect any sympathy

There are no legal failsafes or anything.

from what i've heard down the line,

1) ive heard some players got a partly-functional alt for business purposes (MS owners, moon owners), how true this is i dunno

2) i think this was touched on a few months ago, a support case could be read as, you can share but you lose access to support if anything goes wrong

3) not as such, a planet owner is kinda sharing with LA owners, MS owners do kinda share with its staff. a company system, who could buy a joint deed, with automatic payouts would be good. could give a new deed with shares that can be sold

Harmony. said:

Well there are several approved alts in this game.
And it is legal to let someone else play your avatar.

But in all cases the risk is all yours:
-if someone else playing your avatar gives away all your stuff, it's gone and MA won't help you.
-if someone else playing your avatar gets you banned, don't expect any sympathy

There are no legal failsafes or anything.

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Thank you a lot for your answer! It clarifies things a lot!

By any chance, can you please give an example of a public case of such an approved alt?

PS: Will +rep everyone that answered, but I can't do now since it tells me I gave away too much reputation in the last 24 hours.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...vatar-Sharing-is-very-clearly-NOT-allowed-and

It was heatedly disscussed early in the year in this thread.

We can keep throwing different quotes from EULA at each other on the forums forever. Some will believe one side some the other side and in the end we're none the wiser.
We don't need lots of smart opinions, we need the official position on this. Shouldn't be too hard to do if they have a clear unequivocal answer. And if they don't answer, well, that's kinda an answer too.

And here's the answer I got from support (kinda vague if you ask me):



So how you would interpret it?

Not endorsed, but tolerated?

DoA said:

And here's the answer I got from support (kinda vague if you ask me):

So how you would interpret it?

Not endorsed, but tolerated?

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I read it as:

"If you don't use an alt to take advantage of the system, then we don't care."

What they do care about, is vague.


Rgds

Ace

Ace Flyster said:

What they do care about, is vague.

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World peace and baby seals.

DoA said:

Not endorsed, but tolerated?

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Here my question at support and the unswer :

"Hello,
as i've written in title i'm a little trader around the EU planets, but i need a permanent buyer on caly to buy sell stuff i collect.

So the question is if i can have an alt (with same name, or with "bot" in one of his 3 names) that basically stays at twin peaks just for buy stuff from other player.

Thanks

Regards

2015-11-13 18:10 Entropia Universe Support:


Hi Letale,

Thank you for your support case.

We apologies for the inconvenience but multiple accounts are not allowed, we do not condone any use of additional avatars which would lead to economical advantages over others.

Take care and best of luck.

Kind regards,
Ulf | Entropia Universe Support"



So, i understood that if your share alt gives and economic advantage is not allowed.

part of a support ticket response from several years ago:

Hi,
Thank you for your inquiry and please accept my apologies for the delay in my reply. I would like to thank you also for your link, but, unfortunately we have not bee able to confirm in our logs that the accont has been shared in previous years as the oldest logon logs from our participants are from 2008. However, please rest assured that appropriate action will be taken.

We are committed to make Entropia Universe an enjoyable experience for all and we thank you for helping us reach that goal.
Kind regards,
Tezla | Planet Calypso Support.

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I'm not sure exactly which year that that ticket was from without searching around for it (a little difficult but not impossible... the support ticket system changed a few years back and made it a little harder to find older tickets since the names are a little odd on the titles of them)... However, it kinda makes you think a bit since the above response indicates, at least to me, that alts created prior to 2008 stopped being tracked as potential alts after 2008 as there was no way to go back and track them... A major question that no one's answered yet is if they still have problems with how far back they store the logon logs... How long are they tracked today, and how far back do they go? If they erase them every couple of years, if something does go sour somewhere there's no proof for them to provide to anyone, including the police if something ever escalated to that... as for the police, see below...
-------------------------------------------------------------
Sadly, one of the individuals avatars that the above ticket is about openly admitted in open forums to sharing a gold card at one point in time in order to do some questionable activities in game such as running multiple societies, and openly admitted to creating at least 3 avatars over the years (even if they weren't all active at the same time, some of them were shown in the society terminals at one point in time as the 'founder' of those societies)... and at one point in recent years the same avatar did a service where he 'borrowed peds' from a lot of avatars, to buy high priced items, selling the items, promising to give the peds back, only to later 'log out' for about a year or so with a bunch of those peds and/or items still on his card. He claims to have paid back everyone after becoming active in game again, but since 'all trades are final' there's no way to prove or disprove that, especially if some of the avatars in question quit playing during the interim of that year period... Interestingly, in the last week said avatar has started becoming active again here in the forums, with a bunch of selling threads... (after another long vacation from entropia). Kinda makes you wonder where the funds for those items being sold today came from, doesn't it...
-------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...pport-Please&p=3043237&viewfull=1#post3043237

We are very sorry to hear about your experience. We can assure you that we will investigate your report and determine what actions need to be taken in your specific case.

Unfortunately, we can not return items or money lost due to a scam. Since all items in Entropia Universe have a real value we instead advise you to consider filing an official police report about your lost items. If the police contact us, we will cooperate with them and submit all available logs we have.
[..]

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If they don't keep the logs too long (in terms of years), it makes you wonder what 'available logs' they will give to the police in a sticky situation...

There are officially approved alternate accounts! I can't fucking believe support cannot answer the question correctly -- left hand does not know what the right is jerking?!

The original banking licenses issued in 2007 where entitled to create 5 avatars (per bank) for the purpose of managing the banks. This is from memory and cannot find the original bank license text to confirm/prove it.

Bank Banker Manager is (was) an authorized alternate avatar for the purpose of managing NEVERDIE Bank. Proof

Why the hell would a regular player need an alt avatar? If you have to do something might aswell just do it with your main avatar and stop being shady about it. Even if its in good faith an alt avatar is suspicious as hell if you ask me. The fact that is explicitly prohibited in the ToS (2.1) is just the last nail in the coffin.

Official banking and all that is another story.

Angel O2 Mercer said:

Why the hell would a regular player need an alt avatar? If you have to do something might aswell just do it with your main avatar and stop being shady about it. Even if its in good faith an alt avatar is suspicious as hell if you ask me. The fact that is explicitly prohibited in the ToS (2.1) is just the last nail in the coffin.

Official banking and all that is another story.

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If you and a friend bought a shop together, who would hold the deed? Who would stock it? Who would get the money? Ma has no way to share that deed which is required to maintain the shop.

Ace Flyster said:

I read it as:

"If you don't use an alt to take advantage of the system, then we don't care."

What they do care about, is vague.


Rgds

Ace

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Ace is correct. I have seen support cases involving multiple avatars and supports take on the issue is as long as you do not create an unfair advantage (mostly market manipulation) then it is fine. why would they care? means more peds burned. The EULA is only good if all the rules were enforced by MA and seems that isnt the case for lots of things.

I am vaguely aware that avatar consortiums exist to run avatars 24/7/365. There are others that run multiple avatars. Since this is an RCE game, I can't see any other reason for them to be doing it than to gain an economic advantage.

Since MA isn't going to do anything about it, they should just drop the farcical rules about multiple people to run one avatar or people running multiple avatars for whatever reasons.

Its stupid to have rules that are not enforced by the people who set the rules when the people who abide by the rules are negatively affected for following the rules while the people that flaunt the rules gain advantage at the others expense.

Ace Flyster said:

I read it as:

"If you don't use an alt to take advantage of the system, then we don't care."

What they do care about, is vague.


Rgds

Ace

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I guess that is kind of fair...

(I had no idea we had in game support centre now, that is awesome ).

Sionkiewicz said:

If you and a friend bought a shop together, who would hold the deed? Who would stock it? Who would get the money? Ma has no way to share that deed which is required to maintain the shop.

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Oh, of course, if you want to share something that's not meant to be shared then you are allowed to break the rules to achieve what you want.



On the other hand, a legal system to share those would be cool. But sadly we dont have it...

I think the legality of this is obvious. The general terms (EULA) is valid, but MA can do whatever they want in special cases.

To get an alt, I would think you need:

• A damn good reason, like managing something (planet,bank,..) where you want to avoid direct personal avatar responsibility, or simply sorted support requests.
• Identical verified ownership, personal or company.
• Signed agreement/NDA where you accept loosing your valuables if misused.

SnowLeopard said:

The original banking licenses issued in 2007 where entitled to create 5 avatars (per bank) for the purpose of managing the banks. This is from memory and cannot find the original bank license text to confirm/prove it.

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so, counting all of ND's other alts (including Island girl, ND studios various known and unknown avatars, etc.) we elected a whole army of Presidents for the cost of one, eh? Nicely done.

Oleg said:

Allowing Neverdie to continue as a participant as well as a partner is a big mistake.

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So the 2 links above are

1. Two members of RockStars soc happened to be the 1st ones to loot some useless crap worth absolutely nothing. Fail to see a connection to our alts problem. What did I miss?
2. IslandGirl avatar was used by ND to bid on a piece of furniture (Reddo lamp) worth 88 ped. The seller has no connection with ND or IslandGirl, no market manipulation nothing.

Now let's imagine there's some real substance behind all the accusations against ND (besides the obvious ability to come up with stupid ideas we have observed lately).
Every failed attempt trying to blow things out of proportion works against the obvious goal. After reading through few of those threads ppl develop immunity for such idiotic nonsense and stop wasting their time with reading them...

All the proffessional ND haters will prolly disagree but, well, that's how it looks like from my pov.
With the words of notorious:

CycoKick said:

keeping tina alive in a way is a good thing! no need to be like a sort of paparazzi taking screenies and making theories that are wrong most of the times.

Just let it be!

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Guys, please keep the thread clean and on-topic.

I understand that we all have problems with one person or another, more or less public, that used (or not) alts, but let's please not discuss here individual cases and show fingers against someone, but just stick with the principle - what is allowed, what is tolerated and what constitutes a banable offense.

DoA said:

Guys, please keep the thread clean and on-topic.

I understand that we all have problems with one person or another, more or less public, that used (or not) alts, but let's please not discuss here individual cases and show fingers against someone, but just stick with the principle - what is allowed, what is tolerated and what constitutes a banable offense.

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What support tells you and what is actually allowed and happens daily are two very different things... As far as the old links and things above, it's all relevant to a degree... There's a history to it all...

from a thread way back in 2007:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...vatar-Question&p=730062&viewfull=1#post730062

OK I ran into an old friend the other day - he quit PE several years ago..
We got to talking about it and he told me that he had 2 avatars when he played back then. He used to use the second avatar for extra storage room.
Now before you all start saying thats not allowed - bear in mind this point..
When he was playing the EULA stated that you could only have one avatar per email account. So since he had 2 email accounts (1 for work and 1 for home) the EULA allowed him to have 2 avatars back then.
Now the EULA says you can only have one avatar per person

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If Mindark allowed one alt per email in the past, then kept allowing those that did use/abuse that loophole to continue til today since they weren't tracking it, or let the logs that proved anything get deleted over time... it's likely that this type of thing is still going on with the individuals involved. (little bit like a ponzi or pyramid scheme, but not quite exactly the same...)

Mindark treats all avatars equally, just some more equally than others...

The more blatently the market gets abused by alts the more likely a ban is going to happen somewhere to someone, but many times Mindark is very retroactive to this type of thing instead of proactive... so unless some big fiasco happens, which is in the public's eye that causes Mindark to finally step in and do something, they don't do jack... and those that are silently abusing the system continue to do so.. quietly awaiting the time they can abuse enough to get big huge returns and cash out, gone in the night. Luckily, (I guess?), big ego folks using lots of alts usually screw up somewhere along the way and reveal their hand at the poker table since they can't keep a straight face.

It is very clear and simple. Learn law. Read the ToS. Learn your rights.

You can only have 1 account. We all agree on this.
You can let others access your account, we all agree on this.
You can access others accounts, we all agree on this.
You can thus, have your mother/brother/friend make an account, and you can use their account.

It is not an alt, however you are using multiple accounts and completely legally.

There is an account on each planet, for payout on my PEDtoClick website each made with a friends photo ID to back it up as legitimate accounts. None of them actively play and I use their accounts for payout on my website. I have access to several accounts, but have no alts. It's very clear and simple.

This is the method used for all the motherships, and many shops as well.
Alts are not allowed, you ask MA and will say that.

However, ask if you can use your brothers account, they will say yes. Issue resolved. 1 account per person, but you can use 10 persons accounts.

Mac said:

I am vaguely aware that avatar consortiums exist to run avatars 24/7/365. There are others that run multiple avatars. Since this is an RCE game, I can't see any other reason for them to be doing it than to gain an economic advantage.

Since MA isn't going to do anything about it, they should just drop the farcical rules about multiple people to run one avatar or people running multiple avatars for whatever reasons.

Its stupid to have rules that are not enforced by the people who set the rules when the people who abide by the rules are negatively affected for following the rules while the people that flaunt the rules gain advantage at the others expense.

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There are no rules about multiple people using one avatar, this 100% allowed. They simply will not aid you in the event something bad happens.

If I wanted, I could hire a team of people to play my account 24-7, that is 100% within the rules of the game. The only issue is in the event something bad happens, I am held accountable for whatever someone else did on my account, as well as MA will not offer any support for any issues that arise with the situation (someone running off with all my items).

Venture Bros said:

There are no rules about multiple people using one avatar, this 100% allowed. They simply will not aid you in the event something bad happens.

If I wanted, I could hire a team of people to play my account 24-7, that is 100% within the rules of the game. The only issue is in the event something bad happens, I am held accountable for whatever someone else did on my account, as well as MA will not offer any support for any issues that arise with the situation (someone running off with all my items).

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Thanks for the info, you have motivated me to go back and re-read the rules so I have a better understanding of them around this subject. It seems like an illogical technicality to say that one can control multiple accounts, but one can't have multiple accounts. I don't see the practical difference. It accomplishes the same thing. Therefore it would seem to nullify the rule that one can't have multiple accounts, so why have the rule. But I will re-read and think about it some more.