We Need a System for Loaning items or deeds

In Entropia often people loan each other items. Often this works with people who have a good trust based agreement or people who put up collateral and then return the object later. However there is a problem il try and explain with an example:**
**Last year I owned a shop for a period of time. At one point I had several people interested in renting it. However there was no way for me to Loan it to them. There was an option on the estate terminal which said estate manager which could only be changed by transfering the deed. Of course this could have problems for both players as only way I would be comfortable parting with the deed would be for collateral and then someone who wants to rent a shop most likely doesnt have enough collateral or they would own a shop themselves surely.**

My solution or proposal: Why not introduce a rent or loan window. Just like the trade window but you can set a time period between 1 and 30 days. The person who starts or opens the trade window lets say Person 1 is the person who owns the propertsets the time frame of 1 - 30 days.y. The person who wants to borrow the property is person 2. Person 1 who opens the window places an item or deed into the window and Person 2 window is the charge for the loan. Whatever player 2 places in the window becomes the permanent property of person 1.
The Item being loaned automatically goes back into storage of person 1 or perhaps at a collection point when the time of loan expires.. In this way people could safely loan each other items for ped or for free with the security that their item will be returned by default. A rented item should be untradeable and bound for the duration of the time set in the transaction. Like ordinary trades it would be up to the individuals to agree on the terms but with the security of a sound deal.

This idea would open up the idea of renting things like shops, apartments, space ships, mining tools , guns , armor sets and perhaps clothes.

Other details/ features I would have in mind to avoid problems:
** for estate rentals all items in the estate is returned to the storage of the owner automatically if they rent their property and when a rented property deed is returned to the owner the renters property is returned to their own storage.
**Mothership attachments owned by the owner is returned to storage if a spaceship deed is rented. The person renting must have their own attachments. Any attachments added by the renter would be auto returned to their storage when the spaceship deed is returned to its owner.
**Only UL items, spacecraft deeds, and Other property deeds can be rented (CLDs AUDs and Compet deeds should not be rented. and Limited items should also not be rentable)
** an estate owner who wants to rent their shop or apartment with the furniture would have to transfer the furniture through the rent window system as well as the deed as items in the estates would be returned to owners storage.

I think it would be a good idea for the community to get together to try and bring about the development of such a rent system. It would be of great value to the economy and possibly add value to owning property and equipment.

Please do share your thoughts,
The Mental Bull

This has been suggested before, this will be suggested again. Don't hold your breath.

The Mental Bull said:

Please do share your thoughts,
The Mental Bull

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequences

Whilst it sounds a great idea for a loaning system to be implented which hundreds of us would use regularly, the above 'Law' would undoubtedly cause serious issues.

That is probably why we dont have a secure loaning system at the moment.




Further reading: Explosive ammo crafting

Well

I do not think a loan system would be good. I haven't thought about it extensively, but the first thing that comes to mind is that many parts of the EU system function (I guess mainly the economy?) function based on the fact that you must own what you use, or find some way of owning it temporarily to use (collateral). I think the argument that all trades are final and thus makes loaning risky in way holds no water but I am in the mindset that if the collateral does not meet your needs if the trade is indeed "final" you should not have lent the item.

I agree with Mega on this, I think the unintended consequences (greatly, imho) outweigh the positives. I do not favor a loan system being implemented above and beyond the "pawn shop" capabilities the banks have.

MA will not alow that. You will no depo xxxx peds to buy f.e. mod fap if u can loan one safely. Thats why this RCE is so much RCE like banks are like RL banks in this game ;P

Yes, but with deeper thought's i would say no.

It will decrease the value of many high end items, less money will be deposited.

not a good idea... on the surface, sounds good, but will just lead to even more monopolies in game than we already have with the major 'fund' teams doing all the bidding on big end of year sales, etc.

50000th thread on this subject.

When it becomes better to not use the items that you own, the game is dead. End of story.

Here is a perfect reason NOT to have a loan system.

krogfan said:

...and since I CAN play without this Im afraid it has to go

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This sales thread I quote is a perfect example. Folks sell that which they may or won't use.

BUT be honest, if you could rent all the UL items you loot or buy, with the item always returning safely to your inventory when the rent period was done...

Would you EVER sell anything that had play value?

Multiply that simple truth by however many people play this game and you'll see very quickly that it'll turn into RENTropia very quickly. No medium/high end item would ever be sold again. Not when 100% safe income is to be had by simply owning, but NOT using it.

Oleg said:

End of story.

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No it's not. It's only your opinion.

JohnCapital said:

Here is a perfect reason NOT to have a loan system.



This sales thread I quote is a perfect example. Folks sell that which they may or won't use.

BUT be honest, if you could rent all the UL items you loot or buy, with the item always returning safely to your inventory when the rent period was done...

Would you EVER sell anything that had play value?

Multiply that simple truth by however many people play this game and you'll see very quickly that it'll turn into RENTropia very quickly. No medium/high end item would ever be sold again. Not when 100% safe income is to be had by simply owning, but NOT using it.

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I agree, no Rentropia.

The principle was always that each gamer should fend for themselves.

I agree that a proper system for lending/borrowing stuff would reduce potential for social hacking or scamming but as has been suggested before - not lending stuff in the first place reduces that risk to zero.

On that note, I can also imagine a system with contracts for having others help you sell stuff as well but in my very personal opinion, if you can't put the time in to even sell stuff, you're not worth the game income. Use that auction. 'Work' opportunity for beginners I guess but I feel that they too should play the game.

It feels static and stagnant. Let there be new MM looting instead, enough to support the population?

I've been told by MA way back in the distant past, a loan system will NEVER be implemented.

For me it would make no difference if there was a loan system or not.

Oleg said:

50000th thread on this subject.

When it becomes better to not use the items that you own, the game is dead. End of story.

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Depends on how it is implemented. In another game I play on the side, there is a safe loan system and works fine. However it is rather expensive to loan an item, so in the end it is more eco to own the item yourself. In that game, the loan system is now mainly used for very rare items. Other than that it has little impact on the games economy.

Loan system sounds a good idea but when you think about it you see lot of negative points.

Ubber items will never be sold, it will be like a deed for the owner who will keep it and request an high price for renting it.
When avatar A sell item to avatar B, B need may be to deposit. And it is not sure A will withdraw (he may spend this money IG). So at the end it is more money cycling inside EU.

If you authorize loan then B will not deposit so much. Less money cycling inside EU.

MA should more think about a virtual funds system (like Divinity, etc...) to allow many players to invest together on some specific deeds, items.

Mr-Joey said:

Yes, but with deeper thought's i would say no.

It will decrease the value of many high end items, less money will be deposited.

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I agree with this comment but feel the loan system should be implemented regardless. In the real world we have proper loaning systems and it drives the economy, essentially the entire capitalist economy is built on the loaning of money/land/items etc. Therefore we should have a proper loaning system in our RCE as well...

Also regarding depositing. I might not be willing to depo £10K to buy a MM but hundreds of people might be happy to depo £100 to rent a MM for a month... So I think it might balance things out. At the moment these high end items only pay for themselves in good decay and the ability to gamble on high end mobs but with a rental system these items become more valuable because they provide the owner with a revenue stream rather than just a ped sink. (renting allows us to turn liabilities into assets).

If MA do a half job then it will negatively impact the economy, if MA work with proper economists to get this system implemented and implemented fully it should work well. It works well in the real economy.

Nalia said:

Loan system sounds a good idea but when you think about it you see lot of negative points.

Ubber items will never be sold, it will be like a deed for the owner who will keep it and request an high price for renting it.
When avatar A sell item to avatar B, B need may be to deposit. And it is not sure A will withdraw (he may spend this money IG). So at the end it is more money cycling inside EU.

If you authorize loan then B will not deposit so much. Less money cycling inside EU.

MA should more think about a virtual funds system (like Divinity, etc...) to allow many players to invest together on some specific deeds, items.

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Uber items would be sold if loaning them proved to be lucrative.

~CHOPPER~ said:

No it's not. It's only your opinion.

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When people found out that you could rent hangars (read: space ships) relatively safely (by creating a middle alt), back way Before VU10, then hangar price Went from around 33-60k ped to 133k ped. And for the passengers, the cost of a trip Went from 15 ped, or 20 ped roundtrip using same service, to 25 ped/jump; because officially they had to gain back the rent cost (100 ped/day 500 ped/week) the hangar owners who had paid >100k ped for one had to charge to breakeven. At the same time, because it was relatively easy to provide services, we started to get the "cartel" with people who loudly would protest if any other pilot would provide more competetive sevice and advertised it in Twin Peaks. One of the cartel pilots (an alt) was apparently even locked because of his "bad language".

The only ones I guess really profited on it was those who would sell their hangar at 133k ped (and maybe later, at Vu10, could buy a mothership for 70k ped). And those who had an hangar since Before and could enjoy the cartel pricing. There were a few that at first offered flights at the old price, 15 ped, but they thinned ut because of the harassment from the cartel.

MA later removed the "rentability" for hangars, but the high prices remained.

Because all pilots wanted to get as much profit as possible, or possibly just wanted to survive the cost, typically most of the spacechips were "stuck" at the asteroid, because the ships did make a stop at Crystal Palace (which had a return teleporter) and then continuing for the asteroid, meaning they would fly there with empty seats while they didn't want to leave asteroid with any empty seats (unless a passenger was willing to pay for the empty seat). I could add there was a "pilot queue" on asteroid aswell.

An item lending systme can be double-edged: On one hand it enables you to lend out a low-level item to a friend you don't know that well. On the other hand: It enables those who practically have stopped playing but still have a good Collection of high-end items to lend them out for profit. So, instead of people buying (L) weapons from hunters (for instance), high end players would rent high tiered uberweapons from someone who would just cash out the profit for it. And, typically if yuo have a nice item, you would hold on to it and if you would get a nicer item you would sell it; but now "you" would keep it instead and cash in the rent (and withdraw monthly as you wouldn't need to do anything ingame). And if MA would create a renting system, they would probably add a fee to it, and then it's likely that the fee would be set for those who lend out for profit rather than those who want to let a friend try a Sollomate Outbacko.

Sure a renting system would, theoretically, allow "anyone" to try out the "terminator", but on the other hand the pricing would probably be some 1000 ped/day. Also, with a renting market, there is no guarantee that the gun you want to rent at a certain occasion is free (or the cost to rent it could be set to 10 000 ped/day during an event day). And, that 1000 or 10000 ped is peds that most likely will leave the game in ~60 business Days.

On the one hand I would like to see such a system. But on the ohter hand the possible impact on the L weapon/tool/armor market and all its attached markets could be such a significant one (due to the fact that there are alot of UL items around with respect to the current player base) that it would be more of a harm.

So better not

Regards

Isaac

I would much rather see a Cash on Delivery mail-system that is only available to gold card users and has a processing time of 24-48 hours ebfore clearing.

no need for this.!

aia said:

When people found out that you could rent hangars (read: space ships) relatively safely (by creating a middle alt), back way Before VU10, then hangar price Went from around 33-60k ped to 133k ped. And for the passengers, the cost of a trip Went from 15 ped, or 20 ped roundtrip using same service, to 25 ped/jump; because officially they had to gain back the rent cost (100 ped/day 500 ped/week) the hangar owners who had paid >100k ped for one had to charge to breakeven. At the same time, because it was relatively easy to provide services, we started to get the "cartel" with people who loudly would protest if any other pilot would provide more competetive sevice and advertised it in Twin Peaks. One of the cartel pilots (an alt) was apparently even locked because of his "bad language".

The only ones I guess really profited on it was those who would sell their hangar at 133k ped (and maybe later, at Vu10, could buy a mothership for 70k ped). And those who had an hangar since Before and could enjoy the cartel pricing. There were a few that at first offered flights at the old price, 15 ped, but they thinned ut because of the harassment from the cartel.

MA later removed the "rentability" for hangars, but the high prices remained.

Because all pilots wanted to get as much profit as possible, or possibly just wanted to survive the cost, typically most of the spacechips were "stuck" at the asteroid, because the ships did make a stop at Crystal Palace (which had a return teleporter) and then continuing for the asteroid, meaning they would fly there with empty seats while they didn't want to leave asteroid with any empty seats (unless a passenger was willing to pay for the empty seat). I could add there was a "pilot queue" on asteroid aswell.

An item lending systme can be double-edged: On one hand it enables you to lend out a low-level item to a friend you don't know that well. On the other hand: It enables those who practically have stopped playing but still have a good Collection of high-end items to lend them out for profit. So, instead of people buying (L) weapons from hunters (for instance), high end players would rent high tiered uberweapons from someone who would just cash out the profit for it. And, typically if yuo have a nice item, you would hold on to it and if you would get a nicer item you would sell it; but now "you" would keep it instead and cash in the rent (and withdraw monthly as you wouldn't need to do anything ingame). And if MA would create a renting system, they would probably add a fee to it, and then it's likely that the fee would be set for those who lend out for profit rather than those who want to let a friend try a Sollomate Outbacko.

Sure a renting system would, theoretically, allow "anyone" to try out the "terminator", but on the other hand the pricing would probably be some 1000 ped/day. Also, with a renting market, there is no guarantee that the gun you want to rent at a certain occasion is free (or the cost to rent it could be set to 10 000 ped/day during an event day). And, that 1000 or 10000 ped is peds that most likely will leave the game in ~60 business Days.

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Actually sounds like a positive change to me. It's a way to provide ROI on hard to sell rares. However, I have to ask myself, is this how the auction system appeared to the devs when they created it? That didn't turn out so well, and this has similarities.

Lefty said:

is this how the auction system appeared to the devs when they created it? .

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Ah, auctions. Good point... if lending existed amount of auctions would go way down... Auctions are a form of income for the PP and MA, so uhm, no, not gonna happen.

Quote from the old affiliate program website before it was taken down a few years back:

Another source of income are fees and commissions attached to the in-game auction and player's shops. Every sale on the auction and shops produces a sales commission that also gets shared 50:50 between Mindark and the Planet Partner.

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Lefty said:

It's a way to provide ROI on hard to sell rares.

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If you take an item such as a mod merc, you will most able be able to sell it.

Most likely not as much as when you originally bought it if you bought it at "all time high" (say 2009); on the other hand not unlikely you will get back what you paid for it if you were among the original looters (say 1000 ped). Or, if you were one of those who bought a second-hand "duped" mod fap. Or if you bought a land area as they were originally released (say 12000 ped).

But it's not only top-items that's hard to sell; consider for instance fap-90. (EK2600 was cheap for a while but has gone up a bit, most likely because of reduced gold drops at same time as gold is more profitable to use for ship upgrades.) Back in VU9 I bought a (V) heal chip and (V) Electric attack chips; those are now Worth a fourth or so of the cost by then; and it's not really "rares" (well they're not common but not top items like mod merc). But, while someone could make a business renting out mod fap and (high tiered) mod merc, I doubt lesser level items like heal(V) chip would have a "renting market".

So, I don't Think items like mod fap isn't hard to sell - to rent it out rather than to sell can just be a way to get an income stream out of an item the same way a land owner gets an income stream from miners. And the way the economy works, getting an net income stream that is destined for withdrawal is paid by all other players, one way or Another.

For some reason, I don't see it's likely that someone who have a Collection of high level items would rent them out, and use the income to buy sweat from beginners; if they did, they probably wouldn't have been into the high level item collector Group. Those who got rich, and aren't depositing, got rich by "smart playing" and by being savvy in trading, possibly with intent to get Money IRL; not to be nice to other players or help the game as a whole. Of course there are those that are high level and want to contribute to the game in a positive way; but I don't Think it's them who primarily would be interested in renting out item for a profit.

aia said:

If you take an item such as a mod merc, you will most able be able to sell it.

Most likely not as much as when you originally bought it if you bought it at "all time high" (say 2009); on the other hand not unlikely you will get back what you paid for it if you were among the original looters (say 1000 ped). Or, if you were one of those who bought a second-hand "duped" mod fap. Or if you bought a land area as they were originally released (say 12000 ped).

But it's not only top-items that's hard to sell; consider for instance fap-90. (EK2600 was cheap for a while but has gone up a bit, most likely because of reduced gold drops at same time as gold is more profitable to use for ship upgrades.) Back in VU9 I bought a (V) heal chip and (V) Electric attack chips; those are now Worth a fourth or so of the cost by then; and it's not really "rares" (well they're not common but not top items like mod merc). But, while someone could make a business renting out mod fap and (high tiered) mod merc, I doubt lesser level items like heal(V) chip would have a "renting market".

So, I don't Think items like mod fap isn't hard to sell - to rent it out rather than to sell can just be a way to get an income stream out of an item the same way a land owner gets an income stream from miners. And the way the economy works, getting an net income stream that is destined for withdrawal is paid by all other players, one way or Another.

For some reason, I don't see it's likely that someone who have a Collection of high level items would rent them out, and use the income to buy sweat from beginners; if they did, they probably wouldn't have been into the high level item collector Group. Those who got rich, and aren't depositing, got rich by "smart playing" and by being savvy in trading, possibly with intent to get Money IRL; not to be nice to other players or help the game as a whole. Of course there are those that are high level and want to contribute to the game in a positive way; but I don't Think it's them who primarily would be interested in renting out item for a profit.

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Points taken.

been suggested many times and as people have said the down sides are to strong to ever implement it.

The only way I see this (maybe) working is if the system still required a collateral and the renting fee would go to MA. And quite a hefty fee at that. though, how to determine the collat I have no idea. If it's up to the players it's not gonna work. But still, probably more harm than anything.

Regards

No


























.

However, we could use the idea for something else instead.
You can browse (almost) all items on the market, look at their stats, compare them. Why not add an option to test them?
The fee should be time based and high enough to make it pointless to use for anything but a short test run. Maybe even include a temporary change of the related skills where appropriate.

There's some really nice tools and weapons in the game. Most ppl will never hold or even see em. If they knew, who knows, maybe someone would make it their goal in the game to someday use em.

However, we could use the idea for something else instead.
You can browse (almost) all items on the market, look at their stats, compare them. Why not add an option to test them?
Clothes, armors, weapons, tools...
The fee should be time based and high enough to make it pointless to use for anything but a short test run. Maybe even include a temporary change of the related skills where appropriate.

There's some really nice tools and weapons in the game. Most ppl will never hold or even see em. If they knew how it feels, who knows, maybe someone would make it their goal in the game to someday use em.