Polite mudslinging is still mudslinging

Let's be real for a second.

If you're diminutizing an individual with condescending language it makes you no better than somebody who basically tells you to go fuck yourself, and in some ways makes you worse.

Why?

Because you dont have the courage to actually say what you mean while the other person does. Instead you are hiding behind rhetoric to make yourself seem intellectual when in reality all you're being is an asshole.

Agree or disagree?

I for one am not going to be 'polite' to somebody who's only purpose is to talk down to me. That's a waste of my time. They can go fuck themselves.

I beleive that your approach shows a lack of creativity (and possibly intelegence). However it can be effective at the proper times.

Usually (for the sake of Internet arguments) both parties or sides are "enjoying" the drama rather they are willing to admit it or not.

"Go eff yourself" looses points on creativity as well as (perhaps more importantly) reduces the ability for others to understand your argument. The other issue with this approach is that it will usually end with a locked or moderated discussion depending on where it takes place.

"If" you truly do not enjoy the drama then you wouldn't be posting in the first place.

*I have no idea what your rant is about, but I do enjoy the drama as well as sparring between true intellects as well as a good ridicule that goes over the head of its antagonist/victim

Edit: Truth is the "go eff yourself" guy has lost by getting emotional. Nothing funnier than watching someone say that in a live chat, then rant for a bit then say they don't care. Then when they get no response they continue to rant.

What Narfi said.

I hate political correctness because it's usually dumb (and dumb is dangerous, see what's happening to Europe lately).
There's some rules you have to follow to be able to continue speaking. That's common sense.




Edit: looking back to the thread OP is referring to I think the worst part was getting bagged by the smarter opponent.
Aio is very intelligent and this makes her a formidable enemy. I feel much safer now as we're on the same side of the barricade.

Sometimes the opponent is too strong or uses a tactic you don't want to use. Only way not to lose then is to not fight. If you decide to "fight" you have to adapt to your opponent's tactic. In the ancient China and Japan they said - The real masters can take a weapon from their opponent and defeat em using their own tactic.
I would rephrase this for a modern reader - the real loser is the one who blames the opponent for his defeat.

I guess its two different situations, If you have a side of an argument and you want to show that you are right, then yes at the point where you would say that, you would have lost. But I think he is referring to simply speaking your mind rather than trying to sound intellectual, or leave what you say open to interpretation.

Me personally, the people I like in the game and in real life are the ones who say exactly what they think, you always know where you stand with them.

TBH, I'm a fan of politically correctness.

I do believe you have to speak your mind (and some of you prolly remember that just a couple weeks ago I did stand for my believes basically against the whole community, while getting attacked from pretty much everyone and receiving a few hundred negative reps over that subject alone), but I think you have to do it in an argumented and civilized manner and, most important, don't forget that you're not fighting/arguing with the other guy(s), but with their ideas and arguments.

In the moment when you get emotional or when you fall back to insults (even if the other guy started to do so) you already lost (and not even in "competition" with him, but in "competition" with yourself). Is not about acting like you're more intelligent and reasonable, but about just being more intelligent and reasonable. Also, there may be a cultural thing, but I really hate people that use a strong language thinking that makes their arguments stronger... it really doesn't.

Yes, I do appreciate the direct approach. At least I know who I and what I am dealing with - don't sugar coat it.

Your question seem have intention to cause just another hate thread where everyone will mumble own personal truth without trying to discus or at least hear what other have to say.

You cant expect to have good discussion if you tend to group forum participants witch do not blindly follow your truth and have slightly different view into "not modern mindset", "whiners", "exploiters", "not smart", "fu..youself", "to be ignored", "not enough educated and experienced as you are director of many functions", "except you every one is poor because only you have 3000 usd comp", "not enough forgiving as you use engineer to fix your music for 4 moth so EU participants should forgive bugs present 6 years etc", "nobody to discuss with on this forum".....

If something have to be polite then it should be from each sides and with big dose of patience.

A)I loose respect for people if they continually resort to the use of swear words. IMO it weakens any stance or argument.

b) I FUCKING hate fuckers that are fuckin politically correct all the damn time. They can go die in a hole for all I care. CUNTS!

I choose A

I think both approaches have their place within an argument. There are times where the art of telling someone off in such a way that they feel the need to thank you is handy and when just plain telling to shut the fuck up because no one wants to listen to your ignorant, teen-age bullshit anymore is the better choice.

At my age, something really has to grab me to go either path. I personally could care less about most of the Drama on here.

If someone is openly sparring with you and is honest about they are not on your side then if they do clever insult I will laugh even if it is against me. People I have no time for are those who pretend to want to further understanding on an issue but really are just trying to cleverly put you down or use trickery and diplomacy to misdirect the community to gain advantage over you.

Dont care how an honest people express themselves so long as they authentic. Certainly leaving out bad words will be inclusive of more people wanting to engage the discussion but really most important thing above all is honesty and integrity.









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DoA said:

TBH, I'm a fan of politically correctness.

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Yes, there must be a difference between public and private space. Agreed 100%. This is why we try to behave to some extent (and avoid things like flamebait video clips/gifs and demotivationals). We use words and try to get our point across. Swearing for emphasis isn't too bad but is it likely to drive your point home with the recipient less or more than a few clear phrases?

Respect is earned, not given.

My approach shows the level of respect that has been earned.

Fifth... you're pissed because I outsmarted you on another thread like, yesterday. I was not gentle in that response. I was persistent and logical in the face of many people implying I was an idiot (as is pretty normal when folks dont want to understand what you're saying but dont really have a useful response). Your response is basically the kind of stuff I'm referring to. You've got some cute rhetoric, but your main purpose here is to boost your own self esteem.

Yoshii gets it. Honesty and integrity. I respect those things, and while I think some folks on this thread are speaking more from personal preference and inference, I wont ridicule them for it because that's their honest opinion. They dont deserve it. I will however say that my grounds for that conclusion is (among some other statements) that I "do not enjoy drama". I never said anything about drama on this thread. This threads topic is "Polite mudslinging is still mudslinging." Not "drama sucks." I could give a hoot about drama. It is simply a fact of existence. Going there takes the thread off topic. This topic is a critique of a community that endorses passive aggressive communication as an acceptable means of exchange.

As for a lack of intelligence, well... everyone has their opinion on this forum. As I'm often fond of saying "I dont give a shit." I know that upsets some people to hear, but so what? I honestly dont care about your fragile egos nor do I have any respect at all for language barriers. As a toddler I understood that "Gosh" was a replacement for "God" and "Darn" was a replacement for "Damn." I remember asking my mother why God didn't understand those words if God knew everything. She said "God doesnt like those words." I thought that was stupid. God shouldnt like the sentiments behind the words. The sentiment does not change simply because you say "Poop" instead of "Shit" or "Frack" instead of "Fuck". You're still talking about the same thing! The words themselves are just noise, after all. It was at that point I think that I started to have doubts about religion and societal norms. I didnt know it at the time, but I had identified a fundamental hypocrisy in society. That people use language as a way to control others. Rude (honest) language was not allowed, but the very rude sentiment of diminishing another individual (through convincing others of the speakers erudition versus their more base opponent) was actually highly encouraged and seen as a sign of sophistication.

Hannibal was right to destroy Rome.

But I digress. Words are a tool used to convey a sentiment. The sentiment I wish to convey is being appropriately conveyed: handle at your own risk. After 19 years in MMO space and over 20 in online media, I know how people are online. I dont like it, and I wont play by the same rules you do. Call it whatever you want.

(on this topic, I used the word hoot as a nod to another persons sensibilities. I hope they noticed and appreciated it. again, using words as tools.)

Finally, no, I'm not trying to start another hate thread (the implication is that I go around starting hate threads. I dont. I expose ignorant and shallow thinking. I dont expect that makes me alot of fans. Nor does it enure people toward praising my virtues. It in fact encourages people to severely dislike me, because it is human nature to want to lash out. I'm comfortable with that. I have plenty of real life friends and dont need friends made of pixels who arent really friends at all, just folks who may see advantage in pursuing an interaction with me). I'm trying to force people into a moment of introspection. Just a brief moment. If it even lasted half a second I got what I wanted out of this discussion.

I expect a level of defensiveness and finger pointing to result from this. It's a good thing I could care less what folks think of me, because many are sure to scapegoat me before they take a good look in the mirror.

I think that takes care of everything on this thread.

I rather painstakingly outlined every single thought for folks to digest on the off chance that somebody actually might be interested.

That folks are not, however, wouldnt surprise me.

Magyar_Republic said:

Respect is earned, not given.

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This is a prime example of politicaly correct Bullshit.

Yes you must earn respect.
No it is not acceptable to be disrespectful to someone you do not think deserves it. Once you do that you have lost all rights to respect yourself and are just a hypocrite.

It's just a pet peeve of mine, but, " I couldn't care less" is how the saying goes.

Saying " I could care less" implies that you do care.

well the only thing about you that i can see is that you start posts to swear around and tell people what a piece of shit they are when they dont say "fuck off"... you know... people evolved on the conversational level so there is no need to be rude. if you are so much of a better person and so much smarter than anyone else then why dont you just let them talk and mind ur own business?

this fits here i guess :
“Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us wordy evidence of the fact.”
― George Eliot

Magyar_Republic said:

Fifth... you're pissed because I outsmarted you on another thread
...
your main purpose here is to boost your own self esteem.

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You outsmarted me? Why is it that I always seem to miss the most important parts lately!

Anyway, I'm not here to boost my anything, I'm here for fun.
Statements like that don't qualify as smart or fun in my book. Improve or go back to ignore list.

narfi said:

This is a prime example of politicaly correct Bullshit.

Yes you must earn respect.
No it is not acceptable to be disrespectful to someone you do not think deserves it. Once you do that you have lost all rights to respect yourself and are just a hypocrite.

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Who said anything about being disrespectful of somebody who has not earned respect?

All respect is earned, Narfi. That includes the negative levels.

Since we're having trouble communicating, I fully understand what you are implying.

No, I am not being disrespectful of people who are innocent. I'm being disrespectful of people who I believe are being very disrespectful to others in the first place.

They may not like the mirror, but when I come out against somebody in what can be perceived as a rude way, they are getting a nice look at the exact behavior that they are engaging in towards another.


Oh, Fifth. You're probably missing the 'good parts' because you're too busy filtering through that ignore list of yours figuring out whether Tuesday is a good day to be offended by somebody. Feel free to put me 'back' on it. You really dont matter to me at all.

Ignore lists... lol. If you cant take somebodies opinion and read through it, even if you dont like it, you're a weak minded fool.

Pot, Kettle, Black?!?


Rgds

Ace

Ace Flyster said:

Pot, Kettle, Black?!?


Rgds

Ace

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Not quite. I'm not polite with my mudslinging. With me you get honest dirt. I dont try to convince you its potpourri.

Outside of all the flaming in that thread, I think it was a very productive and insightful discussion, and I hope ya'll don't let a bit of verbal roughhousing stop you from continuing to speak your minds!

Someone that argue or disagree with me, but talk to me in a proper manor, I can have big respect for. But as soon as someone pulls out the keyboard thug language, then I know they're simply unintelligent and further discussion is not needed. I just sit back and enjoy that I won the debate and that my opposition had nothing left to come with other than profanity.

ZPF said:

Outside of all the flaming in that thread, I think it was a very productive and insightful discussion, and I hope ya'll don't let a bit of verbal roughhousing stop you from continuing to speak your minds!

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It's meant to be.

I started off with a very simple point on purpose. Folks are more honest when they have a door left wide open for them to offer their own interpretation into a topic. You get a window into how they think.

I expounded upon my point on page 2, after some folks had said their piece, so that folks might have an opportunity to reflect on their initial interpretations, if they were so inclined.

e-lite said:

Someone that argue or disagree with me, but talk to me in a proper manor, I can have big respect for. But as soon as someone pulls out the keyboard thug language, then I know they're simply unintelligent and further discussion is not needed. I just sit back and enjoy that I won the debate and that my opposition had nothing left to come with other than profanity.

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I suppose that all depends on the definition of keyboard thug language.

Many views here are traditional. A 'bad' word means a bad person. That sort of garbage.

I think that's a lie that society has taught us. Nice words over a cruel sentiment do not make a person a nice person. A 'bad' word over an honest sentiment does not diminish a persons honesty, either.

I'll share with you my definition of a keyboard thug, just for perspective.

Magyar's keyboard thug: A passive aggressive person who's polite verbage belies a vindictive and/or cruel sentiment.

Why are they a thug? Because not only are they denying the recipient of their discourse an opportunity for honest discussion, but they are also denying that recipient opportunity for clear rebuttal, since any rebuttal will be met with some sort of denial.

Unless it's an online mmo forum where are topics debatted nobody cares about anymore as soon they browse another site polite speech is a needed tool to gain public sentiment. However this dosn't apply to PCF because whatever you write here , the impact on your real life circumstances is almost zero.

But if you have an argument with someone else over a serious topic, with your real name on the stake and a audience that can affect your life i strongly suggest polite speech. Example you present your buissnes plan to the board and someone is trying to downtalk your ideas and question your reasoning and calculations.

If you reply with haha youre a dumb ass, go fuck yourself and back out of my presentation you have already lost.
Sugar coating is only one side of the same dice , you also need justification and legitimation for any argument you present. If you fail to guide the other listeners into your thought construct and make them find your argumentation reasonable you have lost before you started.

being honest and blunt make it so much more easy to read your thoughts and intentions and make it easy to form a counter and lay bricks into your way of argumentation. However since nothing is on the stake on pcf nothing of this matter and nobody remember anything said a month ago anyways.

In the real life you should always be polite, sugar coat your speech and make it hard to read your real intentions. You should also not hesitate to strike against any oposition if you can gain an advantage out of it and get away with it. If you are not a humble person you should learn to act like one , life is all about acting and how you look to everyone else and whats their opinion of you. Even if anyone suspect you are a different person as long they have no proof you will get away with anything.

Fiona Simmons said:

In the real life you should always be polite, sugar coat your speech and make it hard to read your real intentions. You should also not hesitate to strike against any oposition if you can gain an advantage out of it and get away with it. If you are not a humble person you should learn to act like one , life is all about acting and how you look to everyone else and whats their opinion of you. Even if anyone suspect you are a different person as long they have no proof you will get away with anything.

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Not always true. Most office trashtalk results from this kind of duplicitous behavior. The folks in my office actually like me because I'm honest and forthright. I'm known as the 15 minute meeting manager because I get folks in there, we say our piece, there's no grandstanding or ego massaging. If there's a problem folks know that raising their hand and saying "It was my responsibility. I should have done better" will actually get them points and respect, while hiding and trying to pass the buck has actually resulted in me firing people on the spot.

It's also resulted in me calling out my peers on the board when they get wishy-washy or start trying to pass blame and walking out of the meeting. Those board members, by the way, are not members anymore. I still am because people ultimately respect action more than they respect double talk.

My entire 18 year professional career has been based on me saying "Here's a problem. Can we discuss a solution?" and not hiding my intentions or demeanor.

I'd consider an office where you have to lie and shield yourself all the time to be a very toxic environment. I'd either overhaul it or find another job, but that's just me. I'm the kind of person who does that sort of thing. Not everyone can or should be.

Magyar_Republic said:

It's meant to be.

I started off with a very simple point on purpose. Folks are more honest when they have a door left wide open for them to offer their own interpretation into a topic. You get a window into how they think.

I expounded upon my point on page 2, after some folks had said their piece, so that folks might have an opportunity to reflect on their initial interpretations, if they were so inclined.



I suppose that all depends on the definition of keyboard thug language.

Many views here are traditional. A 'bad' word means a bad person. That sort of garbage.

I think that's a lie that society has taught us. Nice words over a cruel sentiment do not make a person a nice person. A 'bad' word over an honest sentiment does not diminish a persons honesty, either.

I'll share with you my definition of a keyboard thug, just for perspective.

Magyar's keyboard thug: A passive aggressive person who's polite verbage belies a vindictive and/or cruel sentiment.

Why are they a thug? Because not only are they denying the recipient of their discourse an opportunity for honest discussion, but they are also denying that recipient opportunity for clear rebuttal, since any rebuttal will be met with some sort of denial.

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With keyboard thug I mean "fuck you" and such narrow minded vocabulary. As soon as a discussion leads to that, I know exactly who I am dealing with, and debate is won.

Like the discussion we are having now, is quite enjoyable in my opinion. We don't agree, but we still use a respectful tone towards each other.

e-lite said:

With keyboard thug I mean "fuck you" and such narrow minded vocabulary. As soon as a discussion leads to that, I know exactly who I am dealing with, and debate is won.

Like the discussion we are having now, is quite enjoyable in my opinion. We don't agree, but we still use a respectful tone towards each other.

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We do disagree. I dont think its narrow minded at all. It's a tool just like any other set of words. If all it takes is a curse word to end a debate, I'm of the opinion that a debate never really took place to begin with. Instead what took place is a one sided discussion of one upsmanship where replies were only considered in order to find the holes in them, and then attacked on that level rather than substantively.

Here's an example of a non substantive pseudo-debate. You'll probably be familiar with it and have a bit of a laugh.

PlayerA: This patch is silly and stupid. Here's what they should have done.
PlayerB: This argument is actually kinda dumb. Here's why.
PlayerC: You have no life! Some of us do. Your reason is troll troll.
PlayerA: You're a windbag. What do you know about such and such patches anyway?
PlayerB: Actually, I am a tech developer.
PlayerC: Well, my official title is "Business Development Manager." You may know something about tech, but I know about business. Know your role.
PlayerB: Well, since we're talking titles, I have that title too.
PlayerC: You are a dick waving idiot.
PlayerB: Whoa there? Did you just take it there? Fine. Fuck off, dude.

Player C is a dishonest individual. They attempted to undermine an argument with a credentials race, and then when they lost that credentials race called another person a name for it.

Yet player B is going to be viewed as the problem because player B dared to say the word fuck?

Can we agree that there is inconsistency in using a dogmatic approach toward language as a method of problem identification and resolution? To me its a bit of a post hoc ergo proctor hoc argument.

You swear, therefore you lose.

Lol maggy got owned and is sad

So glad you made this thread Magyar!

Too many nice people have been ensnared by vicious, deceptive, manipulative wordsmiths who can make a thing whatever they like by clever wording that has no bearing on truth, fairness or justice.

When I meet such people in pvp I dont bother with words bad ones or otherwise!










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Venture Bros said:

Lol maggy got owned and is sad

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Ahh, the old Rusty Trombone.

If it werent for you, a reach around would be only a reach around!

Yoshii Lem said:

So glad you made this thread Magyar!

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Yeah, its been really interesting hearing different peoples opinions on it.