EP Economics Question

MA has some costs (with servers, employers, etc) which are more or less fixed; that means that, if the total in-game turnover would not be above a critical level, they would have to either:
a) take a bigger cut of all cycled money to afford to cover the costs, lowering the return rate all over the board for all of us
b) close the game / company

EP BP gamblers (because I can't really call them crafters) do some serious cycling, so they pay a fair share of those fixed costs that MA has, allowing us to keep having a game to play; that's what I think their role is and, if you ask me, I think is a pretty important one.

DoA said:

EP BP gamblers (because I can't really call them crafters) do some serious cycling, so they pay a fair share of those fixed costs that MA has, allowing us to keep having a game to play; that's what I think their role is and, if you ask me, I think is a pretty important one.

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True, and lets take a little deeper look into it.

Pre Explo BP, many miners claimed that they always break even on MU (mainly paid by gamblers clicking mining amps on condition, which went directly into TT after craft).

Now exactly these gamblers click Explo from TT and don´t have to pay MU to miners who coould play for free due to nice MU on comon finds.

It became harder for miners to break even with MU, because less MU exists, so more miners have to go back to depositing.
Its still possible to break even on mining with MU, experienced miners who know where and how to find the good MU still manage that, but its a lot less of them who succeed with it than in old days.

Due to much cheaper amps (caused by oversupply of metal residue from Explo crafting), more miners started to gamble themselves (using the cheap big amps) trying to hit the big one (break even vs TT).

For MA this is a win win situation.

Crafting gamblers still generate the same if not higher turnover
Miner gamblers generate a higher turnover using big amps
Less miners manage to break even on MU, so they have to deposit every here and then (more depositors)

Same for hunting, as the crafters which gambled with clothes (mainly hunted resources needed for that) now do it on explo.
Less hunters manage to break even with MU.
More gamblers in hunting chasing the ATH on though high HP mobs, leads to more deposits here aswell.

So from the basics, MA did exactly what was needed to let them survive and make more money (have more depositors).

But a lot people did quit because they wanted a economy driven by crafting, where the options to break even are not that hard to find.
Personally I would prefer a real economy driven by real crafting, but MA is lightyears away from that.

GoNi said:

But a lot people did quit because they wanted a economy driven by crafting, where the options to break even are not that hard to find.
Personally I would prefer a real economy driven by real crafting, but MA is lightyears away from that.

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I also want that (an economy driven by crafting), but truth is that what we had before was not an economy driven by crafting, we had an economy driven by gambling (crafting); basically the gamblers were asked that on top of their bill (which we all pay to MA) to pay miners and/or hunters bills too (via markup, allowing said miners and hunters to break even).

EP crafting didn't destroy the MU, it just bringed it at the normal values given by supply and demand from current players (not gamblers) population.

Yup I concur with both posts above.

What MA really needs to do is stimulate the economy in other ways.

Reduce (L) Weapon drops

Stop with the upgrade missions (this is a short term short sighted boost to markup that will hurt the economy in the long run)

Introduce more BPs that will have a strong consistent demand (ie: NOT PIRATE FLAGS NEVERDIE)

ZPF said:

Stop with the upgrade missions (this is a short term short sighted boost to markup that will hurt the economy in the long run)

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Not necessary a bad thing.
If they stop dropping the items that could be upgraded, it is a way to reduce existing numbers of UL gear, what would be healthy for a real L economy driven by crafting.

But look at reality:

Today robot attack at Pandora, boss dropped a Millitary to Skorp (gz Skorp "again")

Obviously there is no intention to reduce UL and shift whole system to L.

As long it is this way, you are right.

In a way the A.N.U.B.I.S upgrades on ark might help as all the upgrades are for crafted L weapons. Now as that was just released and is bound to be adjusted in future vu it is hard to see where that experiment will go. If this is successful it may be adopted on more planets. Now MA needs to find other ways to make more crafted items useful to the economy while maintaining their own revenue stream as some crafted L upgrades are not enough to fix the problem. As of right now ep is somewhat vital to MA and if they manage to fix the other problems may not even need to change as it is mostly a closed loop that helps keep them in the black and makes residue as well as some drops needed for upgrades (gems) more affordable.

GoNi explained it well, but I wanted to add the following.

Before EP BP's existed, crafters had in a way a privileged position in the tree main professions. The bought the loot from hunters and miners to craft the weapons and tools those hunters and miners needed. Basically crafters were in the position that they could dictate MU on crafted items, not saying they did though. Looted weapons and armor countered this for the hunters, but what about the miners ?

It is clear for me now that Mindark want MU to be as low as possible, so players can cycle more peds while skilling. E.L.M weapons is a good sample of Mindark lowering the MU. I know many would not agree with me but let's look at the regular EWE LC-240 (L) and the E.L.M version. The regular EWE LC-240 (L) has a maximum tt of 156peds with an MU of around 117%. The E.L.M version has a tt of 1ped and at the moment I think an MU of around 800%.

Mindark saves for every E.L.M version looted, 155ped on a full tt regular version. Even when the E.L.M version gets sold at 800% or 80peds on auctions, Mindark has taken de MU out of the game already. But the neat part is, that they also took the MU of one regular version out of the game.

Because I believe Mindark want MU as low as possible, at least for now, I doubt the EP BP's will be removed any day soon. Don't forget, Mindark has now also to pay all PP's and revenue to CLD holders.

Mindark has a company to run and will do everything to keep it going. For us it may be a game or an investment, for Mindark it is bread on the table an paying all the bills. The ones that can make the game strong again and more successful are the players, us.

Mariko Ninja said:

Before EP BP's existed, crafters had in a way a privileged position in the tree main professions. The bought the loot from hunters and miners to craft the weapons and tools those hunters and miners needed. Basically crafters were in the position that they could dictate MU on crafted items, not saying they did though. Looted weapons and armor countered this for the hunters, but what about the miners ?

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What??
Miners are the ones that have the easiest of the three, you have very low markup cost when you are mining, the probes are no markup and any markup is on the equipment is tiny compared to the total cost. If you want, you can my without any markup cost at all. Crafting is a hell of markup on a lot of resources (that goes the miners) that resources needed to craft, making it hard to get your money back.

The good thing about EP I and II is that it gives low level crafters something to create that can be done in small amounts without having to deal with auction MU, particularly as small quantities of goods often have very high MU.

If I have 50-100 ped from sweating or depositing it can be cycled many more times because I can avoid paying MU as traditionally one might have when crafting filters/dampers etc. Even as the ped flow drops below 5-10 ped one can continue to cycle without raising their cost per click.

Having said that EP IV probably went a little too far.. If something is costing 20 ped per click it probably shouldn't be a TT food component and probably should require interaction with the wider market through the purchase of materials.

To improve the economics of the situation I might suggest that the time per click becomes dynamically related to the TT of the finished product and the number of materials required. In that way manufacturing EP IV should take 1000 times longer than a click of a EP I, after all one is manufacturing 1000 times more EPs.

This might be applied to all crafting to reduce to massive supply/demand indifference.

I think you missed the whole point of the question here because the question was - How can something that only requires a level 15 skill.

valentin said:

I think you missed the whole point of the question here because the question was - How can something that only requires a level 15 skill.

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Level 15 gambler? Hehe
I don't think there is need of level requirements for gamblers, just maybe age requirements - 13 y.o. (youngest player allowed?) still too young to be allowed in my point of view for gambling on EP.

Agree with DoA, EP crafting isn't crafting due to it isn't any service (EP "crafters" are not communicating with market; directly). True crafters are producing something what have demand on market - anything else is gambling/solo fun making.

Do not need to bash (scold?) MA for we have EP craft:
1. It's independent economy and impacts outer world just indirectly (jealousy, greed, whiner lowers activity of all players). (btw you could see what it will cost you on this craft just looking to success rate opening blueprint. If it shows for you say 82% - it means 18% of TT you burned will go to MA). Will they (MA) use it (profit from EP) to support EP crafters or any other habitants/activities in EU - that's on their good will. +rep to DoA, Svarog (sry if I missed to read every post)
2. We should respect different view point - if ppl pick to gamble on their own risk. That their way they have space and rights for. They do not get into your pocket - are communicating just with TT and MA. MA have seen there is demand for such activity and introduced that - see how it is loved by EP "crafters". Good step. There is no command how to use that new "technology", whether you deal with it like with innocent baby just born and gonna donate something for grow or you will act with it as with whore which asks high price for the service - I just picked two extraordinary as an example - but you are free to pick your own opinion - it's virtual reality - means ocean for your imaginations. Do not get stuck on one you don't like, just pick healthier - you are builder of your mood . I'm on first and, so, respect EP crafters. Not for just attention to baby born but also for care about all of us . I know some ppl are not gamblers and use it just for "Hey, guys and gals, I'm around and alive! Having some fun."
3. EP 1, 2 (3,4) are fair for skilling. Miners use TT probes, hunters - TT ammo, both use repairs at no markup on their skilling up, why crafters to skill up should pay markup on their skilling? Thanks to MA for that fair offer to crafters.

I will second to many - we should not have illusions that removing EP craft markups will grow up and will be healthier. There are other reasons for state we reached [major is unL gear is stopper of flow - communication isn't through market - hunters/miners deal just with repair terminal]. Opposite will happen for sure without input of EP crafters.

My respect to ppl who have their fun with EP.
And, sir Fforest, I hold my hand up - I'm not jealous for some1 succeeded 6 digits . I'm open for your friend request in game and discussions about EU economy (though time is money - not always I'm that rich ).

valentin said:

I think you missed the whole point of the question here because the question was - How can something that only requires a level 15 skill.

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LOL

Look at comparable other BPs (nobody crafts these days)

Example:

Madox III

TT in: 21,20 PED

Its LVL 3 weapon BP - that needs even less skill than Explo IV at same turnover rate

The only difference, is that there is MU on the resources needed for Madox III, while Explo Materials have no MU.

It was already that way befor Explo IV that crafters could gamble high with nearly no skill

Most popular gambling BP befor Explo - Level 2 Finder Amplifer - its damn level 1 BP (does that need skill) ????

Come on

I hunt a bunch, mine somewhat lesser, craft very rarely.

It's cheaper for me to get L weapons, and cheaper for me to get L amps when mining.

Since it's cheaper, I am hunting more, mining more, compared to last time. So EP crafters, having brought helped to bring down the price of L gear (either directly or indirectly) are helping me to do more for less.

Without the EP crafters, both would be somewhat to alot more expensive in mu.

Of course MU for loot has generally dropped, but so has my costs. So I don't find this to be an issue for me.

Anyway if MA takes off a fixed % off everyone (on average), as profit / covering cost, those who cycle the most end up paying the most. Am happy that EP crafters are helping to reduce the burden on the others in defraying MA's expenses.