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10k+ mobs & item loot? Don't like it

JohnCapital

JohnCapital

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John Teacher Capital
Not mad at any players. Just mad at the situation.

(Fictional numbers, but you get the idea)
Folks decay 4k into a huge shared loot mob, and the loot is a measly 75% return (3k), which is bad enough.

BUT over half of that loot is an item that goes to one player, leaving less than 1.5k to go back to the others usually in the form of ammo/shrapnel.

Sure, that person w/ the item is happy, but everyone else? Toasted.

Team hunts
  • Only those invited count
  • you see exactly who loots what
  • Social pressure to share good loot
  • Easy to screenshot names in team list, to know who to share with

Shared Loot
  • Anyone and everyone, even people you don't like
  • What dropped? Who looted it? Who knows.
  • There's actually social pressure to HIDE if you looted something good
  • Who was there, in case I want to share? Who was barely even shooting? F*ck if I know. (I suppose I can click the "nearby" list and screenie that, hoping they ALL were shooting. :rolleyes:)

BIG difference


Possible fix:
IF you have mobs that are intentionally too big for a 12-man team to kill, then please fill its loot with stackables.
  • combat token
  • BTAU or similar (rare amt)
  • midastree boards
  • heart oil
  • etc. etc

There are nice MU stackables that can be offered in controlled amounts for stupidly large uber hofs involving 40 people. Items are NOT a way to make all involved happy.
 
Absolutely agree. They made tokens that can be converted into weapons and stuff. Perfect system for shared mobs. I don't get it why they don't use it?
 
If they overdo it on the combat tokens the markup will crash real quick, since these events can be farmed so often/easily.

I think gambling for items is the major incentive for the people that show up to these things.

Gambling for a big fat HOF full of stackables doesn't sound too bad, but we all know these things HOF really small numbers most of the time...

I was shooting shared Mulmun yesterday with Bukin's and grabbed 2x Vacuum Flux Generators from a 700 pedder. That's 50 PED. Maybe filling these up with a mix of low/high TT stackables could be a good middle-ground.
 
Shared is Gamble, especially if you got high DPS, either you loose your ass off or you win.

If you don't like shared mobs, Don't shoot them !!

Only oils etc in loot on shared would be quite boring though.
But maybe they could drop the frequency of the (L) high TT weapon drops a bit.
 
JohnCapital said:
Sure, that person w/ the item is happy, but everyone else? Toasted.
Click to expand...

Yes, but they knew what to expect beforehand and they came exactly in anticipation of becoming that person. I always assumed that the way it works is the reason why people participate in shared loot - a kind of social form of crafting on condition: bad loot, bad, bad, supergood, etc.

Also, the reasons you listed as advantages of Teams over Shared are the reasons why some people don't like team hunting, especially the need of splitting. It's fine if it was agreed upon beforehand, but somehow splitting has become an unwritten rule for team hunting - or suddenly becomes a rule along the way, depending on what exactly was looted :D
 
What I don't like is this kind of social pressure. It's outright stupid. The system distributes impartially, and someone gets lucky. That's the reason why anyone gambles at all. And if you can't gamble responsibly, just don't. If you expect a fixed output/input rate instead of a chance, why would you play at all if you know it can ever only be below 100% by a margin a whole company has to live off?
 
I kinda disagree with this.

There's all forms of mobs in EU now - punies for the brand new, a plethora of low-mid level mobs with associated iron's or daily's on them. There are mobs which you can solo at a high level / cost (eg Warlocks), slightly higher HP mobs which are perfect for a team (Vanguard bosses) and then the ultrahigh HP mobs like the gate defenders, sand king etc which are only realistic in a shared group.

You're not forced to hunt any of these, it's your choice. With the shared mobs, you always run the risk of someone grabbing the big ESI or (L) melee, but that's the extra gamble you take.

I hunt the big shared mobs to loot items. I wouldn't hunt them if the drops were just stackables, because I may aswell do that myself, more efficiently, solo.
 
Don't really see the point of doing shared mobs if only stackables are in the loot table for the mob.
 
KijkkiJikki said:
Don't really see the point of doing shared mobs if only stackables are in the loot table for the mob.
Click to expand...

this yes,there is no point in doing shared if only low mu stackables drop
the chance to loot an item like big esi is what lures us in
 
OK, now I get it. So that's why they abandoned the token system. Fair enough, if ppl like it I'm good.

It's actually pretty impressive how fast all these alternative options were tested until they found the one most ppl prefer. Democracy without the voting cabins. They can do it if the want! :)
 
OK so reading comprehension is a difficult skill for some of you. I mention:
JohnCapital said:
There are nice MU stackables that can be offered in controlled amounts
Click to expand...

And you complain about low MU oils in shared loot.

When I clearly mentioned HIGH MU stackables.

However, I get that many of you seem to want to gamble on "all or nothing" type of loot situations. I get that some folks like that choice.

Personally? Not a fan.

Yes, I've done them rarely, mostly for the social aspect of playing w/ so many players in one place. And may do so rarely in the future.

But in general, not a fan of "all or nothing" loot, which is where this game seems headed towards, more and more.
 
LightStar said:
Shared is Gamble, especially if you got high DPS, either you loose your ass off or you win.

If you don't like shared mobs, Don't shoot them !!

Only oils etc in loot on shared would be quite boring though.
But maybe they could drop the frequency of the (L) high TT weapon drops a bit.
Click to expand...

I can confirm. For example on shared mulmun I use foeripper T8+rage50 I get a lot of the kill points, however a lot of the time on 300+ ped hofs I get 1 ped of shrapnel... Is that fair? I don't think so. It doesn't make sense. But that's how it work . I wasn't there for loot. I was there to do the mission chain for pecs on the ped.

Having high DPS does increase odds of getting the item but it is no guarantee you will get any thing. This I'd I think many ubers shy a way from shared mobs as you can do very poorly despite being the biggest spender.
 
Most shared mobs are available as unshared aswell.

If you don´t like the system of shared, you can stick to the unshared, maybe solo or in team.

Well the wave bosses like sandking or kong don´t exist unshared.

On the other side, if I take a look at my sandking loots:
Items 0
Sharpnel and ammo, tons of it
Tokens a lot - always happy if I get that instead ammo/shrapnel

I like shared loot, especially for option to loot a nice item, without the need of sharing.

Let me explain why:
Have been in a Soc team (sharing items was agreed on befor) and we looted a really nice item (in the 5 digit MU).
We had to sell that item, because nobody could afford to pay out the others and keep the item.
We won pure PED but lost a really nice item to someone who could afford it, that sucks.

If such an item drops in shared loot mob, you can keep it for your own without any discussion or pressure.
That way you can get the items you can´t afford to buy from the market. Chances are low, but better a low chance than no chance.
 
JohnCapital said:
OK so reading comprehension is a difficult skill for some of you. I mention:


And you complain about low MU oils in shared loot.
Click to expand...

How long exactly do you envisage "high MU loot" existing, if shared loot mobs dropped it? :girl:

If you're not a fan of the mobs, don't shoot them, it's pretty simple.
 
fluske said:
this yes,there is no point in doing shared if only low mu stackables drop
the chance to loot an item like big esi is what lures us in
Click to expand...

And the lopsided returns keeps people out.

Nothing like doing a ton of damage on a mob and getting 20% returns because the mob drops items (pirons) and you strike out.
 
Aio said:
How long exactly do you envisage "high MU loot" existing, if shared loot mobs dropped it? :girl:

If you're not a fan of the mobs, don't shoot them, it's pretty simple.
Click to expand...

This game is mostly incapable of keeping high MU because people are either purposefully manipulating the mu to crash or rise the mu or deliberately undercut by large % for impatience. Without considerable demand on resources, it never recovers. But that's another story I guess.
 
Aio said:
If you're not a fan of the mobs, don't shoot them, it's pretty simple.
Click to expand...

Choosing not to shoot those mobs doesn't safeguard me from their economic/balancing impact.

It's not as simple as some people would have us believe.
 
Oleg said:
Choosing not to shoot those mobs doesn't safeguard me from their economic/balancing impact.

It's not as simple as some people would have us believe.
Click to expand...

Please highlight the specific difference of economic impact between a 20k HP shared mob and a 20k HP non-shared mob.
 
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Aio said:
Please highlight the specific difference of economic impact between a 20k HP shared mob and a 20k HP non-shared mob.
Click to expand...

I am curious on this as well
 
Aio said:
Please highlight the specific difference of economic impact between a 20k HP shared mob and a 20k HP non-shared mob.
Click to expand...

Firstly, most of this (imo, and I think the OPs) is to do with mobs that only exist as shared loot (Sand King etc).

Secondly, for large mobs which do exist as both shared and non-shared (like the uber Mulmuns currently spawning, for example) there's a clear difference in accessibility. Shared loot allows for a much greater volume of such mobs to be killed, and thus a higher volume of their loot entering the market.
 
Oleg said:
Firstly, most of this (imo, and I think the OPs) is to do with mobs that only exist as shared loot (Sand King etc).

Secondly, for large mobs which do exist as both shared and non-shared (like the uber Mulmuns currently spawning, for example) there's a clear difference in accessibility. Shared loot allows for a much greater volume of such mobs to be killed, and thus a higher volume of their loot entering the market.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong but I believe sand kings loot table is nearly identical to normal rextellum which are already hunted in propensity. I highly doubt removing the king would boost MU on that loot in any noticeable way.

Accessibility is a curious argument. But there is such a high variety of shared loot events available that I would think the impact on markup would be negligible.

And I just don't see how 15 newbies shooting at every shared loot mulmun event with low dps guns is going to tank markups.

I would hope most players are willing to sacrifice a 1% hit to animal liver oil for the sake of the fun/social aspect of events.
 
Oleg said:
Firstly, most of this (imo, and I think the OPs) is to do with mobs that only exist as shared loot (Sand King etc).
Click to expand...

Can't see how the mob name makes a difference, only the HP.

Oleg said:
Secondly, for large mobs which do exist as both shared and non-shared (like the uber Mulmuns currently spawning, for example) there's a clear difference in accessibility. Shared loot allows for a much greater volume of such mobs to be killed, and thus a higher volume of their loot entering the market.
Click to expand...

Well you're very much over-egging this. It's not like a wave of 40 noobs can take down a mulmun ascended - they'd all get minced in 30 seconds. So there is no accessibility difference there - yes these noobs can tag along to a high-end player, but that requires a high-end player to be there.

In addition, the reason you see such a high turnover on these shared mobs is the ease of spawns (mulmun are spawning 250m from a TP), globally advertised boss mobs (Mulmuns are attacking Fort Zeus) and a "flavour of the month" scenario. Global advertising is shown on most wave mobs too - you see a shared Rex glob, you know the sand king is in action.

Let me parse down the point I'm making even further:

What is the economic difference between 50 people shooting 1 shared mob with 20k HP, or 50 people shooting 50 normal mobs with 400 HP?
 
ZPF said:
I could be wrong
Click to expand...

Yes, you are.

Aio said:
Can't see how the mob name makes a difference
Click to expand...

As are you.

Aio said:
What is the economic difference between 50 people shooting 1 shared mob with 20k HP, or 50 people shooting 50 normal mobs with 400 HP?
Click to expand...

That a 400 HP mob drops massively different loot (types, not just amounts) than a 20k one, obviously.
 
Oleg said:
Yes, you are.



As are you.



That a 400 HP mob drops massively different loot (types, not just amounts) than a 20k one, obviously.
Click to expand...

Great. You're wrong is a wonderful economic explanation.

Robots have the same droplists over all maturities and types barring a few special items. Sand King is the same as a Rex. Raging daiki Bull is the the same as a daikiba. Mul shared are the same as the non shared.

Lets face it: You prefer to hunt solo mobs so you think another form of mob is bad. John's original post was about the annoyance of doing most of the damage and missing out on the items, which is annoying but if you do them long enough it evens out or there's the option of not doing them. Your annoyance is about a personal issue as there is no sound argument to "it as an adverse economic impact".

Personally the more people hunting the better, if it's through shared then fine by me.
 
When Mindark introduced Shared loot, my gut feeling told me to stay the hell away from them.
However, curious as a girl can be, I tried them a few times.

Needles to say, my gut feeling was right.
If it was up to me, I would remove all items from Shared loot.
 
Heh another person that now understands the large shared loot mobs suck ass.....

I always lose my ass hunting them, splits are not right. I go in trying and using best I have and get shit returns and there always seems to be some person running around with a TT noob gun looting the big ESI or some high TT value item and I get shit amount of oils and shrap or ammo that doesn't even cover 60% of what I dumped in.

System has been broke since inception and main reason I hate participating in them and only do so when dragged by other soc members.
 
If you like to go team hunting without the item malarky, consider a trip to Next Island.
 
In an infinite time span, it would even out.. but that's a fallacy.. you either get screwed or screw others... there isn't a middle ground.
 
atomicstorm said:
In an infinite time span, it would even out.. but that's a fallacy.. you either get screwed or screw others... there isn't a middle ground.
Click to expand...

If you shoot with a small gun you can minimize the chances of screwing yourself :wise:

How about some basic math so everyone has a reference point:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bukin's Spare Rifle does approximate 3 DPS.

Hypothetical situation:

Sand King, 1 Million HP.

10 newbies using Bukins: 30 DPS

10 players with average guns: 400 DPS

10 players with huge guns/mod ares/blah: 1000 DPS

Let's assume he drops a full ESI, along with 1000 PEDs of Shrapnel.

It would take about 11 min 39 seconds (699 seconds) to kill Sand King with 1430 DPS.

Approximate Damage distribution:

Ubers: 699,000
Average players: 280,000
Newbies: 21,000

ESI:

Each newbie player has a 0.021% chance to get the ESI.

Each uber player has ~6.99% chance.

Average player has roughly a ~2.8% chance

Shrapnel - 1000 PEDs total

Ubers: 699 PED Shrapnel or 69.90 Each
Average players: 280 PEDs Shrapnel or 28.0 Each
Newbies: 21 PEDs Shrapnel or 2.1 each

Costs - Assuming 2.90 DPP across the board (Ubers have more, but will most likely take higher armor decay, etc)

Each uber player spent about: 241 PED

Each average player spent about: 96.50 PED

Each newbie spent about: 7.24 PED

So as an uber player, you are risking 29% TT return or 171.10 PED loss for a 7% chance at a full ESI.

As an average player, you are risking 29% TT return or 68.50 PED loss for a 2.8% chance at a full ESI.

As a newbie player, you are risking 29% TT return or a 5.14 PED loss for a 0.021% chance at a full ESI.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some newbie math from a newbie hunter! Hope I wasn't too off on anything. Also obviously this is a WORST CASE scenario in terms of Sand King putting out lopsided loot.

Obviously, if everyone used Bukin's, Sand King would not be possible. Accessibility for low level players is 100% dependent on how many high level players show up that can put out major DPS / tank the boss for more than a few seconds.

Are they doing this out of the kindness of their own hearts? Maybe! :eek:
 
Last edited:
I'd much rather have a 1.0 probability shooting 14.3 Sand Kings as an "uber", than 476.1 Sand Kings as a noob, based on your math, ZPF - even if the theoretical risk is higher.
 
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