Menu
What's New
By:
Filters

10k+ mobs & item loot? Don't like it

Aio said:
I'd much rather have a 1.0 probability shooting 14.3 Sand Kings as an "uber", than 476.1 Sand Kings as a noob, based on your math, ZPF - even if the theoretical risk is higher.
Click to expand...

You don't get 1.00 probability this way.

If you have ~0.07 chance in one attempt, 14 attempts would give you 1 - (1 - 0.07)^14 ~= 0.64 chance. (Note it's the chance of getting that ESI at least once, you can also get several, but that's already binomial distribution)
 
Last edited:
Olegs issues aside, I see the shared loot strategy for individuals much the same as solo and team mob strategies.

You have to grind exclusively at a rate you can maintain somewhat indefinitely.
The difference being that volatility is much higher which requires a slower rate on any specific budget than it would require for solo/team hunting.

(assuming somewhat of an average over 100+ kills)
Shared Loot = extremely volatile.
Solo = somewhat volatile.
Team hunting = less volatile.

Obviously the more volatile the activity you pursue the larger the bankroll you need for the same DPS.
Which also means,
Obviously the more volatile the activity you pursue the lower your DPS needs to be for the same bankroll.

While those seem to be two sides to the same coin there is a difference.......
You are always (usually) going to loose in the long run even once everything is averaged out, therefor keeping the same DPS and a higher bankroll will net you a greater loss than keeping the same bankroll and lowering your DPS for shared loot mobs.

Either way though, you have to pursue them religiously day in and day out every chance you get or you would be better off solo or in team.
 
Advising people to use smaller weapons during shared loot is a strategy I hear often.

That this advice is so widely advocated and used should indicate there's a loot distribution issue.

Shouldn't the largest mobs require everyone use their best gear not some best, most using worst?
 
JohnCapital said:
Advising people to use smaller weapons during shared loot is a strategy I hear often.

That this advice is so widely advocated and used should indicate there's a loot distribution issue.

Shouldn't the largest mobs require everyone use their best gear not some best, most using worst?
Click to expand...

Would you advice someone who has a 1k ped bankroll who deposits 1k ped per month to do multiple 1k ped runs on 10k hp mobs with a 100dps gun per day?

No.
They could very easily be out of ped on the first day of playing with that style. Perhaps the first week, but certainly without extreme luck they wont last the month till next deposit.

The strategy is no different with shared loot mobs, it is just greatly magnified.

They do however have the added bonus of being scalable for every single player. You can choose your dps (cost per hour) because one person does not greatly effect the kill speed or total loot. It does change your own outcome though which is what you as an individual is working towards.
 
JohnCapital said:
Shouldn't the largest mobs require everyone use their best gear not some best, most using worst?
Click to expand...

They kinda do. People were dying constantly left and right last time I did Sand King. It was a massacre. Everyone had to keep TP chipping or flying back to the oasis constantly. Hence why I switched to my higher DPS weapon to help out. Did not want to be there all day :dunce:

It's all about the numbers... If you have 200 people, you could theoretically take him down with average/newbie guns. I don't see a problem with that. Except I guess if you're Oleg, it means tanking the economy :cool:
 
JohnCapital said:
(Fictional numbers, but you get the idea)
Folks decay 4k into a huge shared loot mob, and the loot is a measly 75% return (3k), which is bad enough.

BUT over half of that loot is an item that goes to one player, leaving less than 1.5k to go back to the others usually in the form of ammo/shrapnel.
Click to expand...
´
That's the problem with Kong on Rocktropia, and (at least Before) the smuggler mobs in Arkadia underground during event. At a lesser scale; two different people could shoot at same shared mob creature, it globals - but as the loot was just a single (L) melee amp, player A gets the melee amp (that probably will end up in TT anyway since it's (L); and the other shooter gets absolutely nothing.

Or for the kongs; typically they pay out about 50% of their optimal loot. Then, once in a while most of the loot (in terms of TT value) goes into a single ESI or something; the player who got the ESI will be very happy but the rest will just continue to go broke. Meanwhile, what a normal player really hunts kongs for, is the chance for an item like UFO (42 ped TT) or Legend fragment (say 1 ped TT)... I have to say though that shared stackables is more common now than Before.

What's really sad is when it COSTs 500 ped to kill a zombie kong, it globals with say 250 ped, and 200 ped of it is a single item and the rest 50 ped is shared with the rest of the hunters. say 5-10 of those "under average" zombie kongs, and most normal hunters are broke. ND said that he would/had removed the ESIs from the ZK:s, but besides from that I don't Think he can do anything for the loot swings.
 
aia said:
´
I have to say though that shared stackables is more common now than Before.
.
Click to expand...

I have noticed this as well.

The chances are pretty decent that you will eventually loot stackables with low TT like Liver oil or map fragments, or even nano adjusters. The more variation in the items dropped the better your chances at hitting 'something'.

The majority will lose money unless the mob HOFs much higher than the cost to kill. We all go in knowing this (I would hope). IMO it's a small price to pay for the fun experience of shooting giant mobs with 100 other players.
 
narfi said:
Would you advice someone who has a 1k ped bankroll who deposits 1k ped per month to do multiple 1k ped runs on 10k hp mobs with a 100dps gun per day?

No .
Click to expand...

But same player can do team hunts ising that gear with much less chance of getting hosed.

Or did you disagree with my assessment of the difference between team and shared loot hunting?
 
JohnCapital said:
But same player can do team hunts ising that gear with much less chance of getting hosed.

Or did you disagree with my assessment of the difference between team and shared loot hunting?
Click to expand...

Well.. assuming you are hunting the same mob in either scenario:

In shared loot you are killing them more eco (more overall dps so less regen, and armor decay costs are split between everyone so they are minimal), plus you can kill way more mobs in a much shorter time window.

Higher # of mobs killed means more stable loot since you will hit more HOFs/Globals than if you were in a team of only 3 or 4 people.

Whether or not you do well is up to luck in either scenario with such a small bankroll. But as was discussed earlier in this thread, there is no social pressure in shared loot events. So it's all up to personal preference I suppose. I think of it as team hunting where I can come and go as I please/afk as much as I want yadda yadda so I find it relaxing :laugh:
 
JohnCapital said:
Or did you disagree with my assessment of the difference between team and shared loot hunting?
Click to expand...

Not at all,

narfi said:
Shared Loot = extremely volatile.
Solo = somewhat volatile.
Team hunting = less volatile.
Click to expand...

I do however disagree with your conclusion.

Just because a specific activity is not what you or I like personaly does not mean it needs to be 'fixed'.
It just means that we have decided that its not something we want to do or it is not something that is economically or mathematically feasible for us as individuals.

I do not enjoy hunting puny mobs with tt weapons. That doesn't mean it should not exist.
I can not afford a high end UL mining amp. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.
I still haven't tried to learn how the harvesting system works. That doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.
I no longer own a Mothership. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.
I don't have the time to grind shared loot events in order to see more even returns for such a high risk activity. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.
etc... etc.... I think you get my point.


Edit: I am not saying it doesn't need to be fixed, I am just stating that it doesn't need to be fixed because you or I want it to be.

Disclaimer: I have looted UL guns and high TT ESIs doing shared loot mobs in the past when I did have the time and bankroll for such activities.
 
ZPF said:
Higher # of mobs killed means more stable loot since you will hit more HOFs/Globals than if you were in a team of only 3 or 4 people.
Click to expand...

Problem: Of those more hofs/good loots on shared mobs, how many will be shared with you by the person it drops too?

narfi said:
Edit: I am not saying it doesn't need to be fixed, I am just stating that it doesn't need to be fixed because you or I want it to be.
Click to expand...

Not saying it needs to be fix due to my personal distaste. There are activities ingame I've done that I still try to advocate improvements on.

Seems you and I are saying the same thing, but having a communication issue, is all. :)
 
BTW, does anyone besides me remember the history of how shared loot came to be?

Years ago, there was an event involving massively huge boss bots, that even a full team of 12 had trouble killing.

In fact the boss bots were so huge, you had multiple teams of players shooting it.

However, only the team that did the most dmg got all the loot. All the others (teams, single shooters, etc.) got squat.

I even recall a soc rejoicing over turreting one or two boss bots and pissing EVERYONE off.

Complaints occurred of course.

So, the next event. Poof. Shared loot was invented.

Adjustments were made.

And here we are today.

So shared loot was in response to MA making a boss bot so huge, no team could kill it, and the "support shooters" got hosed 100%.

Today, shared loot allows the main shooters to get hosed a large portion of the time, in favor of the smaller shooters. Just not a great improvement to me.
 
The term "Shared Loot" by MA is a contradiction to what really happens to all who join in killing the mob.

When decent items, those of higher % of the total loot, drop from these mob, they are rarely shared by all who participated in killing it. Only the scrap loot is shared by the rest and a lucky few are rewarded with higher % of the loot because of items in it. This is not fair, shared treatment, to all who helped kill the mob. And the argument that those who do most of the dmg get the Lions share is not fair when an item is looted that won't be "Shared"

15 people kill a high HP "Shared Loot" mob, which has a 1K ped hof, and 1 item in the loot has a 500ped TT value, which goes to 1 avatar and the other 14 people get an even split of the remaining 500 ped, 35.71ped each. Did the 1 lucky player really do 1/2 of the total damage to be rewarded with the item? doubtful and highly unlikely, but... anything is possible.

To be a truly "Shared Loot" mob, items must be omitted so that a "fair" share, based on the dmg done is realized by all.

And, IMO if I only get 500 ped of oil from the 1K HOF example above, which I didn't have to kill all by myself, it's still 500 ped. Maybe there's no mu on the oil but that should be the trade off of killing a "Shared Loot" mob. If the example was a 10K HOF or 100K HOF, are you really going to complain about 5k or 50K in oil's or even shrapnel? probably not.
 
People's ideas of "fairness" make me sick, honestly. Is this a sign o' the times? [Insert rant using real-world political terms.]

You get a fair chance to loot something big, not a guaranteed share. If you can't wrap your mind around that, stay away from there and keep hunting things your shoesize. If all I could hope for was ordinary stackables, I would never point my gun at Sand King, Zombie Kong, huge Oratan Lancers or the likes. I make up my mind how much I'm prepared to lose for having fun before I enter such an event. It is often exceedingly short when this point is reached, I may have left a jaded comment here and there, but I never questioned the concept.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ZPF
JohnCapital said:
Today, shared loot allows the main shooters to get hosed a large portion of the time, in favor of the smaller shooters. Just not a great improvement to me.
Click to expand...

I agree - shared loot is a great thing! (Though, I know ubers hate it.)

My only objection is when a single high TT item is the major part in the drop in the loot, when the total drop from that specific mob isn't great (or when there is a number of mobs in a row that returns 50% or less).

I mean, if a mob that COSTs 500 ped to kill gives a 250 ped loot, and 200 out of the 250 ped is a single item; yielding 10% return for most of the shooters. So in other Words, it's (for me) more a question how the loot is divided for below-average "drops". If it's a "hof" with 2000 ped drop, then a 200 ped item doesn't have that big impact.

For non-shared mobs uneven loots with high TT items is less of an issue because team normally split higher loots within the team.

As someone wrote, if a high TT item, that doesn't trigger a "rare" global, drops in a team then everyone in the team can see the item; but if its dropped from a shared loot only the looter "sees" it - for the rest of the shooters it only appears as the loot is "crappy" as the shooter might only see 2 peds Worth of ammo and shrapnel from 20 ped ammo in his loot window.

Personally, I Think it might be nice if ESIs over 20 ped TT would trigger a "rare" global. (ESIs below 20 could qualify as an ´uncommon´ loot; not rare) (No i haven't looted any ESI lately, not even <20 ped lol)
 
Last edited:
sighlentz said:
And, IMO if I only get 500 ped of oil from the 1K HOF example above, which I didn't have to kill all by myself, it's still 500 ped. Maybe there's no mu on the oil but that should be the trade off of killing a "Shared Loot" mob. If the example was a 10K HOF or 100K HOF, are you really going to complain about 5k or 50K in oil's or even shrapnel? probably not.
Click to expand...

Yes, I would complain if the mob was full of TT loot. Where is the pay off for shooting a huge-HP mob, with the risk that entails, added to the even greater risk that I may not get the item in the first place?

I may aswell go hunt 6k HP mobs solo, which I'm perfectly capable of doing, to see the same frequency of swirls of TT crap.

San said:
People's ideas of "fairness" make me sick, honestly. Is this a sign o' the times? [Insert rant using real-world political terms.]

You get a fair chance to loot something big, not a guaranteed share. If you can't wrap your mind around that, stay away from there and keep hunting things your shoesize. If all I could hope for was ordinary stackables, I would never point my gun at Sand King, Zombie Kong, huge Oratan Lancers or the likes. I make up my mind how much I'm prepared to lose for having fun before I enter such an event. It is often exceedingly short when this point is reached, I may have left a jaded comment here and there, but I never questioned the concept.
Click to expand...

This is exactly correct.

aia said:
As someone wrote, if a high TT item, that doesn't trigger a "rare" global, drops in a team then everyone in the team can see the item; but if its dropped from a shared loot only the looter "sees" it - for the rest of the shooters it only appears as the loot is "crappy" as the shooter might only see 2 peds Worth of ammo and shrapnel from 20 ped ammo in his loot window.

Personally, I Think it might be nice if ESIs over 20 ped TT would trigger a "rare" global. (ESIs below 20 could qualify as an ´uncommon´ loot; not rare) (No i haven't looted any ESI lately, not even <20 ped lol)
Click to expand...

Everyone knows exactly when an item drops, it's obvious (if I'm running 10% damage, and I get 1ped from a 500 ped global...). Why should this be announced to everyone? If you were to loot, say, a Tiger Harness solo, it wouldn't trigger a "rare". Why should this happen in a shared?

We already have enough "rare" shit dropping. ESIs aren't rare. Shopkeepers aren't rare. Beacon 11111's aren't rare.

OMFG YOU LOOTED AN ADJUSTED ARTEMIC RING! FUCK YEAAAAH! MU = 10ped.
 
Warp your head around this. You are a solo hunter hunting one creature that also has a shared loot version. Now let's imagine, you are solo hunting this creature on your own, maybe 2 to 3 others also hunt them solo. Yet on the shared version there are 10 hunters shooting it.

The system decides it is time to drop an item. Where do you think the item will drop ?
I can guarantee you it will drop on one of the shared hunters.
 
Mariko Ninja said:
Warp your head around this. You are a solo hunter hunting one creature that also has a shared loot version. Now let's imagine, you are solo hunting this creature on your own, maybe 2 to 3 others also hunt them solo. Yet on the shared version there are 10 hunters shooting it.

The system decides it is time to drop an item. Where do you think the item will drop ?
I can guarantee you it will drop on one of the shared hunters.
Click to expand...

Still missing the point that this is no different to those 10 hunters being in a team and doing the same thing, or those 10 hunters each individually hunting the same mob.

If the HP and the mob is the same, then your item chances per kill are the same. Just because there are a higher frequency of the shared mobs being killed, doesn't affect your chances per mob.
 
I only see one problem with making it all into readily divideable loot - the major mobs are used for introducing (or reintroducing) very good gear. If the juicy prize at the end goes away, where's the incentive to do a big mob at all?
 
Last edited:
Aio said:
Still missing the point that this is no different to those 10 hunters being in a team and doing the same thing, or those 10 hunters each individually hunting the same mob.

If the HP and the mob is the same, then your item chances per kill are the same. Just because there are a higher frequency of the shared mobs being killed, doesn't affect your chances per mob.
Click to expand...

Ah but you do miss the point.
With 2 hunters the change is 50% for each of them looting the item.
With 4 it goes down to 25%, now do the math. ;)
 
Mariko Ninja said:
Ah but you do miss the point.
With 2 hunters the change is 50% for each of them looting the item.
With 4 it goes down to 25%, now do the math. ;)
Click to expand...

So your argument against shared mobs is against other people playing the game? You'd prefer that if you choose to hunt a mob, you and only you can hunt it?
 
Last edited:
Mariko Ninja said:
Ah but you do miss the point.
With 2 hunters the change is 50% for each of them looting the item.
With 4 it goes down to 25%, now do the math. ;)
Click to expand...

Wrong math.

With team, chance of getting paid for big drop = 99%
With Shared chance of getting paid for big drop = 0%
 
An argument against getting items in shared loot? Be careful what you wish for.

 
Aio said:
So your argument against shared mobs is against other people playing the game? You'd prefer that if you choose to hunt a mob, you and only you can hunt it?
Click to expand...

No that is where you are wrong, I never asked for that. However, you claim the item drops on the mod and not the individual player. While completely missing the evidence, suggesting this is not true, staring right in your face. Don't worry, I missed it too at first. It's all here right on PCF. You just have to think a bit harder, search do your analysis. Items drop in the individual player as member of at team, shared loot or solo hunter.

JohnCapital said:
Wrong math.

With team, chance of getting paid for big drop = 99%
With Shared chance of getting paid for big drop = 0%
Click to expand...

Sorry JohnCapital, read what I wrote above.
It's funny how Mindark dropped some huge hints in the past years and hardly anyone noticed them.
 
Mariko Ninja said:
No that is where you are wrong, I never asked for that. However, you claim the item drops on the mod and not the individual player. While completely missing the evidence, suggesting this is not true, staring right in your face. Don't worry, I missed it too at first. It's all here right on PCF. You just have to think a bit harder, search do your analysis. Items drop in the individual player as member of at team, shared loot or solo hunter.



Sorry JohnCapital, read what I wrote above.
It's funny how Mindark dropped some huge hints in the past years and hardly anyone noticed them.
Click to expand...

This isn't the case, but believe whatever you want.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top