How big is a decent hunting sample?

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Johan Roadkill Deadmeat
I think we've all pretty much agreed upon that with a large sample and good setup enough you will hit around 95% returns.

BUT how much are we expected to cycle before we see results and how should we measure it?
Rounds?, kills?, turnover?

I've recently chipped all my melee and started using Kholukar Glacier Sword and trauma amp I to regain some skills.
I'm at 9.4hit/dmg ish and sword should be 2.870dpp maxed according to Entropedia but you can't add trauma amp so it should be a bit better but not sure how much.
However I'm also tracking realtime DPP from chatlog depending on misses, this is an example from one round:
=====================================================
Mob hunted: argonaut
Weapon used: Glacier Sword
Weapon cost: 97.02 //this is the full usable tt so weapon and amp cost are constant
Amp cost: 9.89
Heal cost: 0.41
Armor/Plate cost: 0.96
Loot return: 78.72
======================================================
Eco: 2.87754DPP //with amp I'm around the eco of the maxed sword
Defence: 1.28145%
Missrate: 13.227% //usually miss is about 11% so eco should be a bit better than dissplayed
Hits taken: 165
Round cost: 108.28
Return: 72.7004% / -29.56

Now I've done 20 rounds about 50/50 on big corn/small argo and 9 rounds were done with Maxed Dominax Mamushi(on corn),
This means the constant (full weapon+amp) varied in tt but not by that much and corn has less HP too.
full round mamushi =93ped ish
full round glacier = 108ped ish

Now I think 20round, 2000+peds is a decent sample for a 250-300hp mob to determine how well you're doing and that you should be around 95% at that time however I'm at: 87.9835 %

So the question is:
How many rounds are we expected to do is 20 not enough? (A round on a big mob obviously has a bigger turnover)
Or is it simply a matter of turnover devided by mob hp?
Or do you start seeing results after a certain amount of mobs killed?

only 20 rounds in I'm obviously far from done but if this would've been say scip I'd be broke because I don't have the buffer and the same would apply to any noob hunting argos.

TLDR/summary: I think the lootswings are too great to sustain the noob population that do not have 3K peds to spend on 300hp mobs
 
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lootswings are too great to sustain the noob population that do not have 3K peds to spend on 300hp mobs

Well "Spending" and "cycling" are two different things.

If you start with 700 PED, and get ~80% return on your first hunt,

Then cycle the 560 PED, ~80% return again

Then cycle the 448 PED, ~80% return again

Then cycle the 358.40 PED, ~80% return again, leaves you with 286.72 PED.

But you just cycled over 2k PED. Hopefully you would hit some globals somewhere in between here.

You don't need 3k PED to cycle 3k PED. You just have to sell your loot in between hunts and not have insanely bad luck (I think 80% is reasonable).

The main advantage of a larger bankroll is being able to hold onto/stack your loot higher and wait for ideal opportunities to sell for markup.

Lootswings are fine how they are imo. In fact I think they are fairly "child-proof" compared to the old days.

Auction fees are the biggest threat to newbies imo... Pushing them to feed everything into the TT, even with constant 90% returns they are bleeding PED because they are not squeezing out any markup via auction.
 
Well "Spending" and "cycling" are two different things.

If you start with 700 PED, and get ~80% return on your first hunt,

Then cycle the 560 PED, ~80% return again

Then cycle the 448 PED, ~80% return again

Then cycle the 358.40 PED, ~80% return again, leaves you with 286.72 PED.

But you just cycled over 2k PED. Hopefully you would hit some globals somewhere in between here.

You don't need 3k PED to cycle 3k PED. You just have to sell your loot in between hunts and not have insanely bad luck (I think 80% is reasonable).

The main advantage of a larger bankroll is being able to hold onto/stack your loot higher and wait for ideal opportunities to sell for markup.

Lootswings are fine how they are imo. In fact I think they are fairly "child-proof" compared to the old days.

Auction fees are the biggest threat to newbies imo... Pushing them to feed everything into the TT, even with constant 90% returns they are bleeding PED because they are not squeezing out any markup via auction.

All true specially auc-fees.. but we should consider the fact that not everyone wants to deposit 70$ in to a game just to afford the swings of low level mobs... where's the incentive to progress when you're not even mid lvl and you need 500$ just to get stacks big enough to sell on Auc

(I might add that I think that I have bad luck which is probably why I'm at 88% returns after 2K on small mobs with low defence and decent eco...so my view of really bad lootswings might be biased towards my own experience)
 
All true specially auc-fees.. but we should consider the fact that not everyone wants to deposit 70$ in to a game just to afford the swings of low level mobs... where's the incentive to progress when you're not even mid lvl and you need 500$ just to get stacks big enough to sell on Auc

(I might add that I think that I have bad luck which is probably why I'm at 88% returns after 2K on small mobs with low defence and decent eco...so my view of really bad lootswings might be biased towards my own experience)

The auction fees are a problem. That's why I recommend my disciples to hunt mobs that have decent markup on things that you can stack fairly quickly (like hides on Arkadia). You can even sell these in trade chat sometimes without needing auction.

If you focus on the most popular mobs (Iron mission mobs) on the most popular planet (Calypso) the majority of your loot will be ammo and shrapnel anyway, you don't even need auction :rolleyes:

The $500 bankroll is not really necessary, but it helps you stack the things that are very difficult to auction such as extractors and paints. IMO it's only fair that the players who invest more have at least some small advantage like this.

Mining as a newbie is also fantastic on Arkadia as most of the servers have a very simple resource distribution (for example the desert is mostly Gazz/Zinc whereas if you go to Calypso every server has 10-20 different resources so you will never be able to stack them without a bankroll.

So my point is... there are options out there for small bankrolls; it's not so bad to justify redesigning the loot system (again).

And let's not forget team hunting! It's such a great option for newbies. You can hunt way more mobs which means hitting way more multipliers, and the hunt becomes much more eco (less heal/armor decay, less mob regen, etc).

I know some people like to do everything solo, but that is their personal choice and they should accept the consequences.
 
How much horsepower does a car have?
 
slightly offtopic but:

Take my last 4 runs as an example and lets pretend 300ped was all I had:
64.258% -> 300 is now 192.77
56.9931% -> 192.774 is now 109.87
60.0943% -> 109.87 is now 66.02
72.7004% -> 66.02 is now 47.99

427.64 peds cycled and 48peds to show for it in less than 4 hours and no way are you able to save any stacks.
You'll never be able to hunt anything bigger than punies without a reserve 10x as big if you're hunting hardcore for a week and it's only low lvl mobs

where's the incentive to progress for casual players if you need 10x the usual monthly subscription fee for a normal game just to handle 7 days of hunting noob mobs

I'm not saying EU should become a normal game or be expected to play like a normal game but sometimes the swings boarder on the extreme... it gets boring as feck with 70% 10 hunts in a row
 
I think we've all pretty much agreed upon that with a large sample and good setup enough you will hit around 95% returns.

Of course not all people agree with this figure (i already explained why this is not possible, but i am tired and i do not want to argue anymore).

But, let's imagine we agree on that. What does it means ? What does really means 95% return ?

Imagine the 2 following situations

SITUATION 1 : RICH PLAYER A
Player A has 100 000 peds. He buys 80 000 peds ammos and keep 20 000 peds for repair. He goes for a huge hunt. He should come back with 95% so 95 000 peds

SITUATION 2 : LITTLE PLAYER B
Player B has only 10 000 peds (not so bad, most of players have not so much). So according you we have 95% average return.
He goes with 10 000 peds ammo (he keep a little part for repair), he come back with 9 500 peds
he goes with 9 500, he come back with 9 025
he goes with 9 025, he come back with 8 574
etc ...etc ...
After 14th run he goes with 5 133 and he comes back with 4 877 peds

Total cycle he made for 14 run is more than 102 000 peds but he loose more than 50% of what he had at start
Versus the player A who cycled also 100 000 peds but loose only 95% of what he had.

Of course you may notice that both loose same amount (around 5K peds). But one loose 95% and the other one loose 50%

So that's why i ask : what do you mean with your 95% ?

If you mean 95% is the average return on each run than you see that there is a real gap between people who have large amount of money vs people who have little pedcard, it has no sens.

If you mean 95% of the total of all cycle till your avatar started to play inside entropia, it means that most of people have to deposit only very little value time to time. And according all what we read on most chat/forums : lot of people deposit and loose a lot.

I am just curious to understand what do you mean with 95% ??
 
Of course everyone mean 95% of what you SPEND. If you spend 500 two times its counted as 1000 total and 950 ped of those gets back. I won't argue on the number but I have a lot higher than this.
 
Of course everyone mean 95% of what you SPEND. If you spend 500 two times its counted as 1000 total and 950 ped of those gets back. I won't argue on the number but I have a lot higher than this.

So MA take 5% on all deposit and that's all forever ? i can't believe it works like that. I can't also believe that because as soon as you deposit in this game MA has to pay 20% of VAT if you are based in Europe. So if what you said is true it means MA risks to loose 15% on each deposit.

And i am certainly a very bad player, i deposited many thousands dollars in this game and today i have only few thousands peds available :)

NOTE : i do not cry, i love this game and i am pleased of any deposit i made here :) I just do not trust some figures.
 
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So MA take 5% on all deposit and that's all forever ? i can't believe it works like that. I can't also believe that because as soon as you deposit in this game MA has to pay 20% of VAT if you are based in Europe. So if what you said is true it means MA risks to loose 15% on each deposit.

And i am certainly a very bad player, i deposited many thousands dollars in this game and today i have only few thousands peds available :)

NOTE : i do not cry, i love this game and i am pleased of any deposit i made here :) I just do not trust some figures.

MA don't take 5% of your loot, they take a % of the decay/ammo used and return the rest to the lootpool. The VAT is a different story, probably clever accounting avoids the brunt of that
 
MA don't take 5% of your loot, they take a % of the decay/ammo used and return the rest to the lootpool. The VAT is a different story, probably clever accounting avoids the brunt of that

Last time we talked about this on this forum people explained me that they mean it was 95% on each run ... now people explain it is 95% on the total we spent till we started this game... So this is one more reason i do not believe this 95% theory as the way they calculate it changes depending on the question we ask.

P.S. "MA don't take 5% of your loot" : I said 5% of the deposit (considering that their is some players who deposit only to hunt/mine and never invest or spend money somewhere else, 5% loose means they loose 5% on the total deposit they made, i do not believe that). If i said somewhere "5% of loot" plz consider it was a typing mistake, i am talking only on the % return versus ammo/decay spent.
 
Cycle 1 Million ped over 1 year and you should have 90%+ TT return.... easy :)
 
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Last time we talked about this on this forum people explained me that they mean it was 95% on each run ... now people explain it is 95% on the total we spent till we started this game... So this is one more reason i do not believe this 95% theory as the way they calculate it changes depending on the question we ask.

P.S. "MA don't take 5% of your loot" : I said 5% of the deposit (considering that their is some players who deposit only to hunt/mine and never invest or spend money somewhere else, 5% loose means they loose 5% on the total deposit they made, i do not believe that). If i said somewhere "5% of loot" plz consider it was a typing mistake, i am talking only on the % return versus ammo/decay spent.

Sry, I took the claim of 95% loot against 5% MA as been the same calculation. I don't think they'd take 5% of the deposit (but might take some in $ conversions by giving a lower rate than offered, plus some webshop purchases have fees on top), the decay/ammo will work out enough(crafting is probably a different system as there is no decay) , plus when people withdraw, i'm guessing VAT is refunded, lessening the VAT impact.

I don't believe in a 90-95% hardline figure either, but as long as you don't hunt with massive defence costs, uneco, it should be obtainable, I sit at 96.6% TT over 281k Cycled
 
So MA take 5% on all deposit and that's all forever ? i can't believe it works like that. I can't also believe that because as soon as you deposit in this game MA has to pay 20% of VAT if you are based in Europe. So if what you said is true it means MA risks to loose 15% on each deposit.

And i am certainly a very bad player, i deposited many thousands dollars in this game and today i have only few thousands peds available :)

NOTE : i do not cry, i love this game and i am pleased of any deposit i made here :) I just do not trust some figures.

could be right but how many players depo and withdraw after 1 run :laugh:

imo its easy if you are depo 1000 peds, you can cycle 20000 peds on 95% untli you are broke. so MA get's 100$ from you minus taxes makes roughly 70$ to run the business
 
Honestly I find that my returns are all over the board if I don't bring enough ped to kill at least 100 mobs of whatever I'm hunting.

Back when I hunted ambu with 250-300 ped I was dipping below 80% and never recouping it. 700 ped ammo or more and I'm right around 90-95% most runs
 
Last time we talked about this on this forum people explained me that they mean it was 95% on each run ... now people explain it is 95% on the total we spent till we started this game... So this is one more reason i do not believe this 95% theory as the way they calculate it changes depending on the question we ask.
Now people explain? Where is this "now"? Who was it, give me a quote.

I don't read every last post but I have never seen a post claiming something so stupid.
It means you deposit 100 ped, make one run, lose 5 ped and after that all the runs will always be 100% return until the end of the time. If you don't immediately realize it's a total nonsense it simply means 5th grade math is too hard for you and quite frankly for your own good you shouldn't be allowed to handle any money IRL without a custodian.
I'm not very good at math, calculating taxes and understanding how it all works is way out of my league but I have no problem understanding simple things like how to calculate return %. I suppose I'm not a total idiot then. :scratch2:

Yes OK, there's been posts where ppl announce they figured out this is NOT how it works and then accuse everything and everybody why isn't it working this way... which is universally stupid ofc.

Similar but slightly more complex problem is reusing looted ammo. You buy 100 ped ammo, use it all up, get 90 ped ammo back, then immediately reuse this also, get 81% back, reuse this too, get 73 ped back. So you actually cycled it 3 times (you actually did 3 runs, not 1). And then those ppl put all their loot and remaining ammo in TT and calculate the %. And then they say "Screw the logs! I know how to measure my loot, I'm not an idiot! My return is 70% and everybody who has more than that is a crook or chosen avatar."

Not saying that's how those 60-70% returns always appear but it happens more often than you think...

Anyway, I've no idea what's the overall average return in this game. Doubt it could be anywhere near 95% when using unmaxed uneco gear, while making short runs (in terms of # mobs killed). For those people it must be way lower. If you can do whatever using whatever and never burn your fingers as a result, what's the point in trying to learn the game and try to play smarter? If anything goes the whole game's pointless, dontcha think? ;)
 
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I take a more relaxed view: the first time I lost 7k hunting mid level mobs and mining without amps in one session, I simply quit. There is no lootswing or bell curve or impossible figure that can make up for that.

I chat and hang out and play small sessions and try the new mission things and talk about the days of yore before the UL weapons were effectively removed and sabakumas looted undies and that's it.
Oh, I did buy ten boxes :) Shame I didn't wait to buy them until I'd checked out some random punter twitch streamer opening 500 without getting anything tradable.

I'm not making excuses for this game.
 
Now people explain? Where is this "now"? Who was it, give me a quote.

I don't read every last post but I have never seen a post claiming something so stupid.
I

Of course everyone mean 95% of what you SPEND. If you spend 500 two times its counted as 1000 total and 950 ped of those gets back.

So as i am stupid and idiot mathematics guy when i read this i understand that it is 95% of all what i spent ... If there is any limit sorry it was not said.

I don't read every last post

You should have ;-)


*********************************************************

Anyway the problem is many people claim they have 90% or 95% or whatever % return, but what does it mean really ? Nobody use the same method to calculate anything, so nobody is really able to compare any figure.
 
Yes OK, there's been posts where ppl announce they figured out this is NOT how it works and then accuse everything and everybody why isn't it working this way... which is universally stupid ofc.

.............

Similar but slightly more complex problem is reusing looted ammo.

.............

Not saying that's how those 60-70% returns always appear but it happens more often than you think...

Anyway, I've no idea what's the overall average return in this game. Doubt it could be anywhere near 95% when using unmaxed uneco gear, while making short runs (in terms of # mobs killed). For those people it must be way lower. If you can do whatever using whatever and never burn your fingers as a result, what's the point in trying to learn the game and try to play smarter? If anything goes the whole game's pointless, dontcha think? ;)

Mostly agree with you on that points
 
You should have ;-)
I asked for this mysterious elusive quote, but you didn't show me anything. You should have... ;-)
Anyway the problem is many people claim they have 90% or 95% or whatever % return, but what does it mean really ? Nobody use the same method to calculate anything, so nobody is really able to compare any figure.
Right, now try to muddy the waters... Let me make it perfectly clear. There's only 2 kinds of players, idiots who have no idea how to calculate anything, and those ppl who do it right. Those two groups, nothing else. Everyone who's showing their results in public logs uses the exact same method. OK, some people only show TT returns, some prefer TT+MU, some display both. That's it, all the variety there is. Is ist too confusing? You can use the correct method as well and compare your results. It's not a rocket science, even I can do that... :)

Why is it a problem that there's ppl who have 95%+ returns anyway? Why does it somehow offend you? There has to be a reason. Think about that... :smoke:
Should the immense investments in skills and gear some people are making to achieve these results NOT have any effect at all? Why would they invest anything then?

Mostly agree with you on that points
It's a relief you didn't take my criticism personally. It indeed wasn't meant to be.
 
So as i am stupid and idiot mathematics guy when i read this i understand that it is 95% of all what i spent ... If there is any limit sorry it was not said.

I really really didn't think it was possible to misunderstand my post and thought I was pretty clear with my example and everything. Why are you mixing in deposits at all? I don't care where you got the peds or who you got them from. What if a friend gave you the peds how would that be counted then? I can only laugh :D Will try again tho

-Do not even think about where the peds came from
-You go hunt for 500 ped exactly and you take a a break.
-After the break you hunt for another 500ped.
-You have now spent 1000ped if this was not clear for some reason. Still do not mix in deposited or whatever those peds came from in the first place, not significant at all. You have spent 1000ped on hunting that's what happened here.
-Of those 1000ped you get 950ped back.
-If a friend give you 50ped because he feels bad for you it's back to 1000ped and you can go out again expecting the same return again 95%.
-If you don't have that friend you will come back next time with a little over 900 ped and so on until your ped card runs out.
-To the extreme you can say that from each click of your gun you can expect to get 95% of it back in loot. The more you shoot the higher your cost is in peds but the % is the same. The biggest loser is the one shooting the most ^^

I hope this was crystal clear but so I thought last time to so idkn :scratch2:

*the 95% is just an example. This is not a accurate number.
*this is only TT return and doesn't tell anything about the markup.
 
If we buy PED's with RL currency right now from webshop we get 95% of our money value!
I'm sorry to say, but returns in game for a regular player in current time, isn't near there nor even 90%.
I don't take the "spend a million PED" post, as a serious answer ofc If that is the point, EU is not going anywhere and soon we will remember it as a sweat memory.
 
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