Info: The Unmaxed Journey (By the Numbers)

atomicstorm

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[Disclosure: I am making my own opinion based on the data. It is up to you how that influences your behavior. I did this journey full well knowing I would likely be losing a good amount of PEDs. Luckily I have land areas to help me minimize. Hope it helps.]

When I got the Improved MAKO Fal, I decided to address the question whether or not you can get away with using unmaxed weapons and my returns be similar to the maxed counterpart of the same DPP. Today, I will share with you my results since Sept 11th, 2015 and my assessment based on this data. I will also share my current struggles, including ones that might eventually cause me to no longer play.

The Preamble

Swords: L51 Swordsman Hit, L55 Swordsman Dmg
Evader: L47

The Results (By The Numbers)
All results are with the Mako only

Duration: 2015-09-01 to 2016-08-17
Highest Loot Recorded by the Mako: 1672 PED Teladon Young (L56)

Total Cycled: 656,796.50 PED
Total Return: 636,699.84 PED
P/M: -20,096.66
TT Return: 96.94%
Defensive Cost: 4,050.68 PED (0.6167%)

Stats: 550 Skill Boosts, 1942 Globals, 22 HOFs
Run Rate: 120+ 206- (36.81% Positive Run Rate)

Trend By Month



Trend By Week



Logarithmic Graph



Candlestick



For this graph, you can see it is loss trend until around June when I started approaching L95 then it became level and pivoting to a positive trend.

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Subsets

Beginning to Kill Strike

Duration: 2015-09-01 to 2016-03-17
Total Cycled: 140,574.22 PED
Total Return: 131,181.31 PED
P/M: -9,392.91
TT Return: 93.31%
Defensive Cost: 1,767.08 PED (1.257%)

Stats: 146 Skill Boosts, 401 Globals, 8 HOFs
Run Rate: 30+ 85- (26.09% Positive Run Rate)

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Kill Strike to L90

Duration: 2016-03-18 to 2016-05-16
Total Cycled: 254,074.92 PED
Total Return: 248,623.45 PED
P/M: -5,451.47
TT Return: 97.8544%
Defensive Cost: 622.52 PED (0.245%)

Stats: 198 Skill Boosts, 868 Globals, 10 HOFs
Run Rate: 41+ 55- (42.71% Positive Run Rate)

------------------------------------------------------

L90 to L95

Duration: 2016-05-16 to 2016-07-04
Total Cycled: 127,022.36 PED
Total Return: 120,985.88 PED
P/M: -6,036.48
TT Return: 95.2477
Defensive Cost: 471.15 PED (0.3709%)

Stats: 106 Skill Boosts, 336 Globals, 3 HOFs
Run Rate: 23+ 32- (41.82% Positive Run Rate)

Summary: Hurt by real bad run on Dotty where I used damage enhancers heavily.
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L95 to L100

Duration: 2016-07-04 to 2016-08-17
Total Cycled: 139,069.58 PED
Total Return: 140,200.53 PED
P/M: +412.61
TT Return: 100.2967%
Defensive Cost: 1,199.42 PED (0.8625%)

Stats: 104 Skill Boosts, 353 Globals, 1 HOF
Run Rate: 26+ 35- (42.62% Positive Run Rate)

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Full Data from the Journey

Duration: 2015-09-11 to 2016-08-17
Condition: For all swords, including the Mako. (Sparkbite ELM, Niflheim, Embras ELM, Imp Mako FAL)

Total Cycled: 1,400,052.25 PED
Total Return: 1,351,422.63 PED
P/M: -48,629.62
TT Return: 96.526%
Defensive Cost: 10,069.79 PED (0.7192%)

Markup Earned: 46,184.98 PED (103.47% Avg MU)
Final P/M: -2,444.64 PED (99.83%)

Stats: 1055 Skill Boosts, 4219 Globals, 45 HOFs
Run Rate: 234+, 419- (35.83% Positive Run Rate)

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Assertions

Assertion #1

Theory: You can use an unmaxed weapon and as long as the DPP is high enough, you will be okay.
Assessment: MIXED, Mostly FALSE
Summary: Each weapon, seemingly because of the DPP, operates like a quantity/condition slider. This is proven by a test done by Slithered and ultimately a pattern that we all recognize. Example being when you take an Omegaton Swine Deluxe and global like crazy (but still lose) or use an IMK2 and you don't global at all and do just fine. With that being said, there are 4 specific ways you lose peds with an unmaxed weapon:

Improved Mako FAL + X Amp = 3.172DPP
Total Cost Per Swing = 28.920PEC

Reason 1 and 2: Loss of Hits, Ergo Loss of Crits

Crits offset the loss from evades. Hit skill also effects the frequency of the crit skill. Also, if your weapon misses, you lose the peds from the miss. My weapon was 29pec a swing, every miss costs me that in my return. 1 miss on a 3ped mob is a 10% loss.

At L65 Swordsman Dmg and Hit w/No Rings or Buffs (2.914DPP)
- My crit rate is 1.81% instead of 2%. That's .19% of my swings not resulting in crits to offset evades (@ 2250 swings an hour, I have 40.64 crits on average instead of 45)
- My hit rate is 86.5% instead of 90%. That's 3.5% of my swings resulting in misses ontop of the evades (9%). (@ 2250 swings an hour, that's 78.75 extra misses)

PED Leakage from Misses: 22.77 PED an hour (650.7ped/HR turnover) is a TT loss of 3.5%

Reason 3: Loss of Damage

Everyone seems to miss the part of losing average damage. We focus on the loss of hits, but there are more components than just hit ability.

At L65 Swordsman Dmg and Hit w/No Rings or Buffs (2.914DPP)
- Rather than the average damage of 75% of max damage, it is 71.5%. Base DPS is lowered from 76.45 to 69.751. Therefore, I am paying the cost to generate 76.45 but only get 69.751 DPS instead. To quantify this, I would lose 6,591.46 damage per hour (Total Swings * Effective Dmg Theory * Damage Loss Rate) (2250 * 83.701 * 0.035) if I were maxed, it would be 91.74 instead of 83.801.

PED leakage from Damage Loss: 22.77ped an hour (650.7ped/HR turnover) is a TT loss of 3.5%. Now we are at a 7% TT loss. My returns from the IMK2 and Mako at this level matches this finding.

Reason 4: Enhancer Compound Effect

If you don't use enhancers, you are already at a 7% disadvantage. However, if you do use enhancers, every miss and every damage loss is compounded. You additionally do not get the full benefit of the enhancers because:

- You will burn enhancers for less hits
- You will burn enhancers to lose more damage.
- You cannot crit (accuracy enhancers) on a miss.
- The cost (because of TT and markup of the enhancer) is greater per swing.

During my journey, any time I loaded up enhancers, I always lost. I had a 0% positive run rate when using full damage enhancers. My biggest losses also came at these times.

Why do I say it is mixed? Because once I hit L85 and opened kill strike, my returns became mostly tolerable. It would be possible, with the current climate, to at least break even and sustain the skilling OR pay the TT for the skills (instead of chipping up) with the losses after markup. The advantage is only if you have a good weapon that you are growing into and you do not have any other alternatives. However, know that the further away you are from maxed, the more you must rely on high markup that might not be easily available and the emotional toll might not be worth it. For me, it wasn't. That is why I turned to a Niflheim and Embras ELM to get me to L90. After L95, the leakage was minimal enough for it to be tolerable for me. What is unclear is if being unmaxed hinders your multipliers. I found data inconclusive for this assertion and it is likely that such big hits are few and far between with a weapon with the base eco as the Improved MAKO FAL.

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Conclusion

Would I do a similar experiment again? No. This journey caused me quite a bit of stress. I think the hunting profession in general is stressful and that is for a few reasons. First, I do not have confidence in my gear. This is the only profession that I have been unable to do well. The margins are slim and that is because of major overfarming. But because it is a challenge, I will continue to see how things go especially since L95 to L100 gave near expected results. Also, there are few mobs to hunt that I consider fun. Almost all of them are on Arkadia and of course, a few of those are on my land area. I can certainly relate to the distress of players on Calypso. It's just plain dull. I found the plethora of loot from Robots recently to be a nice addition. Arkadia has similar behavior. It feels as if you are at least farming stuff instead of mobs on Calypso always having nothing as if you are just looting remnants of your own ammo except for the animal that has a gun up its ass.

Size of mobs also gives me some concern. Clearly this sword does not work well for mobs greater than 10ped. That is part the amount of time I can give to the game each day and also my tolerance for boring loots. I would like to get HOFs more often and I chose the wrong weapon and killing too low of cost to kill mobs for that to be common. Even though that seems to not be a problem for others.

All in all, I found using an unmaxed weapon, at least in the earlier stages, to be painful. To use a weapon like Gravis at L35 because it is available and cheap is foolish. Weapons such as these should not be in the game. It is far better to use a UL Piron maxed with low DPP (condition) than an unmaxed Gravis that ends up being the same DPP (leakage).

I will create a video or stream a Q/A on twitch like I did before to explain my graphs if there is enough request or there are a lot of questions.
 
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(Reserved for QA/Videos)
 
*que brains exploding....*

And also values of UL non-sib weapons dropping..

After talking to $5 extensively during the 95-100 stretch, coupled with this data, I see a lot of alarming concern in hunting generally..

It is great that players have something to look forward to if they can invest hundreds of thousands of ped and the time to get level 100.. But next to that doing well seems blatantly impossible. But if any other profession were farmed as heavily as hunting the outlook would be just a bleak.


Still.. The data published here does make me reconsider my investment in EU.. Sure the game is fun, and not everyone can profit, but if I want to just play a game for "fun" it wouldn't be EU. The potential to make real money is what drives me to play.. But this data suggest that hunting and doing well is virtually impossible without an investment I can't fathom making.
 
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*que brains exploding....*

And also values of UL non-sib weapons dropping..

After talking to $5 extensively during the 95-100 stretch, coupled with this data, I see a lot of alarming concern in hunting generally..

It is great that players have something to look forward to if they can invest hundreds of thousands of ped and the time to get level 100.. But next to that doing well seems blatantly impossible. But if any other profession were farmed as heavily as hunting the outlook would be just a bleak.


Still.. The data published here does make me reconsider my investment in EU.. Sure the game is fun, and not everyone can profit, but if I want to just play a game for "fun" it wouldn't be EU. The potential to make real money is what drives me to play.. But this data suggest that hunting and doing well is virtually impossible without an investment I can't fathom making.

No, this is TT return. There is still potential of doing good without above 100% tt return. It's just not as easy as when maxed and having Eco gear. Thats the challenge.
 
*que brains exploding....*



So thats why my head hurts :eyecrazy:
 
*que brains exploding....*

And also values of UL non-sib weapons dropping..

After talking to $5 extensively during the 95-100 stretch, coupled with this data, I see a lot of alarming concern in hunting generally..

It is great that players have something to look forward to if they can invest hundreds of thousands of ped and the time to get level 100.. But next to that doing well seems blatantly impossible. But if any other profession were farmed as heavily as hunting the outlook would be just a bleak.


Still.. The data published here does make me reconsider my investment in EU.. Sure the game is fun, and not everyone can profit, but if I want to just play a game for "fun" it wouldn't be EU. The potential to make real money is what drives me to play.. But this data suggest that hunting and doing well is virtually impossible without an investment I can't fathom making.

With explosives, the demand for resources is slim. They have to increase demand.
 
Good read +rep, I have a question.

Best choice?

Option 1: Unmaxed level 100 with decent eco when maxed (excluding stuff like imk2).

Option 2: 130% MU maxed (L) weapon.

If both end at similar eco after MU and skill level is taken into account, which one would be the best.

I'm pretty sure PED spent in MU are lost forever, but are PED leaked from non-sib weapons also lost forever?

Cheers.
 
No, this is TT return. There is still potential of doing good without above 100% tt return. It's just not as easy as when maxed and having Eco gear. Thats the challenge.

Minim is correct.
 
*que brains exploding....*

And also values of UL non-sib weapons dropping..

After talking to $5 extensively during the 95-100 stretch, coupled with this data, I see a lot of alarming concern in hunting generally..

It is great that players have something to look forward to if they can invest hundreds of thousands of ped and the time to get level 100.. But next to that doing well seems blatantly impossible. But if any other profession were farmed as heavily as hunting the outlook would be just a bleak.


Still.. The data published here does make me reconsider my investment in EU.. Sure the game is fun, and not everyone can profit, but if I want to just play a game for "fun" it wouldn't be EU. The potential to make real money is what drives me to play.. But this data suggest that hunting and doing well is virtually impossible without an investment I can't fathom making.


Surely ur brains did explode, what u wrote above makes no sense whatsover...

If anything then all the data FiveDolla collected above is for the greater understanding and people looking at this should realise how good it is possible to do!

Back to the OP:
Thanks for sharing. All that above is nothing new but explains it very very clearly to people who are still stubborn and wont listen when they are told all those little things that ACTUALLY MATTERS!

Huge gratz once again for completin this journey and sharing collected data, its a great tool for learning for everyone but especially thise who are not maxed or are stubbornly using unmaxed weapons.
I do agree to all ur assertions but multipliers, it does seem the way you say, but its smth my mind tells me is impossible. Just that bit that is hard to believe, but understably why you think so!
Then again i bet you would be able to get bigger hofs just been super unlucky!
RNG u know? ;) that little bit of quartz in ur computer...

Cheers

Soko
 
Good read +rep, I have a question.

Best choice?

Option 1: Unmaxed level 100 with decent eco when maxed (excluding stuff like imk2).

Option 2: 130% MU maxed (L) weapon.

If both end at similar eco after MU and skill level is taken into account, which one would be the best.

I'm pretty sure PED spent in MU are lost forever, but are PED leaked from non-sib weapons also lost forever?

Cheers.


Option 2 - always.
Peds are not lost, they go into other players pocket, while on option one you are paying more than u should on lost hits and most importantly dmg!!
 
Good read +rep, I have a question.

Best choice?

Option 1: Unmaxed level 100 with decent eco when maxed (excluding stuff like imk2).

Option 2: 130% MU maxed (L) weapon.

If both end at similar eco after MU and skill level is taken into account, which one would be the best.

I'm pretty sure PED spent in MU are lost forever, but are PED leaked from non-sib weapons also lost forever?

Cheers.

Option 2. For option 1, it appears peds are leaked into the pool for others to get. I believe the same is true for regen and some armor decay. These generally get paid off as a higher global rate but that's you just getting those peds back. I need to test that and I will. This is just an observation.

Option 2.. while the mu is 130%.. not all guns decay the same. For high MU guns, find a good amp to absorb the decay. Same is true for high MU mindforce chips. That's what the B series implants are for. This option is also good for the economy. You can also farm your own guns or craft for that matter.

You can't complain about the economy and then avoid option 2 whether by not buying or not farming.
 
Option 2. For option 1, it appears peds are leaked into the pool for others to get. I believe the same is true for regen and some armor decay. These generally get paid off as a higher global rate but that's you just getting those peds back. I need to test that and I will. This is just an observation.

Option 2.. while the mu is 130%.. not all guns decay the same. For high MU guns, find a good amp to absorb the decay. Same is true for high MU mindforce chips. That's what the B series implants are for. This option is also good for the economy. You can also farm your own guns or craft for that matter.

You can't complain about the economy and then avoid option 2 whether by not buying or not farming.

I don't think I ever complained about the economy :)

Thanks for your answer, makes sense I just wanted to know your opinion after all the data mining you have made.

:thumbup:
 
Thanks for providing your data, must be the most extensive ever produced :)
 
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Thanks for providing your data, must be the most extensive ever produced :)

Playing devil advocate, the only issue I could see with the data:

1) I think you switched to using a mod restoration chip during the results, I just wondered whether your early results could be slightly effected by a higher defense %.

2) You didn't use ares ring at start, and then switched to much better rings - aug ares and summer ring - at the end?

3) Using L and UL sib weapons during the test - m83 during it as pre-damager - may have 'bleed' into the results.

1 - yes, 0.5% tt change

2- yes. Gear changes are indicated on the graph as a circle with a G. However, those changes are after kill strike.

3 - only until April. Using the m83 improved results. Was used the most during gold rush. After the change, I did not use any predamager and only the cheapest weapon to use for 1 shot tagging. From 12% of my cost in run to 1.93%.
 
Thanks for the reply.

------------------------------------------------

Beginning to Kill Strike

Duration: 2015-09-01 to 2016-03-17
TT Return: 93.31%
Defensive Cost: 1,767.08 PED (1.257%)

L90 to L95

Duration: 2016-05-16 to 2016-07-04
TT Return: 95.2477%
Defensive Cost: 471.15 PED (0.3709%)

------------------------------------------------

Considering your early results had 0.9% extra defensive costs and no good ring - compared to L90-L95 - the early results are quite impressive at being only 1.9% less TT compared to 90-95. I am guessing 90-95 was a bad loot period, comparing it to killstrike-90.

Was the start of migration. First two weeks of June were bad for everyone. I also was doing eviscerators.. and those are high regen.
 
i wouldnt say its impossible to do good below lvl 100. im doing quite good right now on 450 ish hp mobs with kinetic 5 TEN chip. thats 2.96 base dpp + limited ares ring. healing with adj resto and naked but even with armor decay and heart rank 6 this mob gave me good results as i got an average of 105% MU on total loot. thats quite insane nowadays. need to do a bit more testing though if it gets stable. right now im at around 4k kills... when i got more time ill finish the 10k mission and see where it goes.
 
Huge gratz once again for completin this journey and sharing collected data, its a great tool for learning for everyone but especially thise who are not maxed or are stubbornly using unmaxed weapons.
Soko

I'm not sure the results explicitly suggest it's a bad idea to skill up with high DPP unmaxed weaponss.
 
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I'm not sure the results explicitly suggest it's a bad idea to skill up with high DPP unmaxed weapons, but it does prove his returns improve as his DPP and Level does; which we would all expect. It's difficult to decode whether the TT improvement is due to higher: DPP, Level on Weapon, or a Bit of Both. We'd need someone to do the exact same test with a SIB weapon at say 2.950 and compare the TT returns to the Mako to say which option is better to skill up with. I don't think anyone has ever produced such results with a SIB gun from level 50-100. Additionally: skill pills may effect TT return, as you are receiving more TT of skill per mob and it may slightly lower TT ped return; if someone replicated the results but didn't use skill pills the whole way.

Skills do not have a TT value. They are worth 0 TT.
 
i wouldnt say its impossible to do good below lvl 100. im doing quite good right now on 450 ish hp mobs with kinetic 5 TEN chip. thats 2.96 base dpp + limited ares ring. healing with adj resto and naked but even with armor decay and heart rank 6 this mob gave me good results as i got an average of 105% MU on total loot. thats quite insane nowadays. need to do a bit more testing though if it gets stable. right now im at around 4k kills... when i got more time ill finish the 10k mission and see where it goes.

This thread isn't about low dpp maxed weapons.. which is what you are using or about returns for people under L100.
 
True, I should have said a higher amount of skill per mob. I think it's highly unlikely skill pills / bonus has any effect on how a mob loots, but I can't discount it.

It doesnt. I ran a lot of 30% and 100% pills during this time.
 
I'm not sure the results explicitly suggest it's a bad idea to skill up with high DPP unmaxed weapons, but it does prove his returns improve as his DPP and Level does; which we would all expect. It's difficult to decode whether the TT improvement is due to higher: DPP, Level on Weapon, or a Bit of Both. We'd need someone to do the exact same test with a SIB weapon at say 2.950 and compare the TT returns to the Mako to say which option is better to skill up with. I don't think anyone has ever produced such results with a SIB gun from level 50-100. Additionally: skill pills may effect TT return, as you are receiving more TT of skill per mob and it may slightly lower TT ped return; if someone replicated the results but didn't use skill pills the whole way.

It suggests exactly that. No matter what ur dpp is on any weapon, maxed, unmaxed high or low dpp.
Its not something that 5$ has just discovered and the tread is not about that. Also it was told once by MA in their developer note that being maxed is the way to go. Skills matter- there shouldnt be argument about that!
About skill pills and skills - as 5$ said - skills have no tt. However skill pills do! But instead of some voodoo math to reduce ur tt loot if u gain more skills it could do contrary but GL finding out if 0.01 ped of skill pill tt is returned in tt loot or not.
 
It suggests exactly that. No matter what ur dpp is on any weapon, maxed, unmaxed high or low dpp.
Its not something that 5$ has just discovered and the tread is not about that. Also it was told once by MA in their developer note that being maxed is the way to go. Skills matter- there shouldnt be argument about that!
About skill pills and skills - as 5$ said - skills have no tt. However skill pills do! But instead of some voodoo math to reduce ur tt loot if u gain more skills it could do contrary but GL finding out if 0.01 ped of skill pill tt is returned in tt loot or not.

Mindark said being maxed was important and DPP was.
 
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Mindark said being maxed was important and DPP was, but that was general advice and may not be applicable to guns like Improved Mako and Imk2. I'd be surprised if someone using vanilla SIB gun at 2.95 - without EST or focus blow items - could get a much higher TT return rate than 5$ did from level 50 to killstrike; when he was only really using Mako without big crit buffs. Maybe I go off topic, but I was attempting to discyss about his returns and what they may indicate; not drawing any firm conclusions just raising some questions.

Before the rings, I had 95% tt with a niflheim and x amp. Only had imp ares.
 
Mindark said being maxed was important and DPP was, but that was general advice and may not be applicable to guns like Improved Mako and Imk2. I'd be surprised if someone using vanilla SIB gun at 2.95 - without EST or focus blow items - could get a much higher TT return rate than 5$ did from level 50 to killstrike; when he was only really using Mako without big crit buffs. Maybe I go off topic, but I was attempting to discyss about his returns and what they may indicate; not drawing any firm conclusions just raising some questions, not trying to be argumentive or 'rain on his parade' :).

Ok i understand you want to discuss and i have no clue how 5$ feels about it but one thing u are right - u are going off the track. Just there you agreed being maxed is what matters as per MA anouncement years ago but then you say it may not be the case? How can it be not the case when it is? :)
Not attacking you buddy, just saying whats been told and aproved by MA. I am
Maxed on imk2. I have used it a fair bit both maxed and unmaxed, i have my logs but there is nothing to prove. It just is as MA has said. Skills matter for last time :)
Lets have a cold beverage and cheer to 5$ for being on stubborn bastard on his road to profit!

Cheers
Soko
 
Ok i understand you want to discuss and i have no clue how 5$ feels about it but one thing u are right - u are going off the track. Just there you agreed being maxed is what matters as per MA anouncement years ago but then you say it may not be the case? How can it be not the case when it is? :)
Not attacking you buddy, just saying whats been told and aproved by MA. I am
Maxed on imk2. I have used it a fair bit both maxed and unmaxed, i have my logs but there is nothing to prove. It just is as MA has said. Skills matter for last time :)
Lets have a cold beverage and cheer to 5$ for being on stubborn bastard on his road to profit!

Cheers
Soko

Until I sort out the technique, have a plan of action, and am comfortable with mob choices, I will never profit. For this reaaon, I'm not even playing today.
 
Interesting, so would suggest Mako is just as good a weapon to use for TT returns when level 70-80ish and not maxed.

This is the part that I was mixed on. This seemed to be the case for me. I never fully understood what past loots in crafting and mining impacted my hunting returns. I just know that I'm incapable of hitting anything that new people and others shooting low mobs (like the 3k Argo young yesterday) do rather often. It's always a matter of trying to keep head above water. We will see how it goes post L100. I do know that I'm not very optimistic that much will change.

My lifetime hunting returns are very dismal. Much of that is from the rapeage if the aakas keys a couple years ago. The solo keys are better now but every run was always 70 to 75% tt return every time. And I did 650 keys. I would have to share my returns by excluding those runs.
 
If you don't use enhancers, you are already at a 7% disadvantage.
Any chance you could elaborate? Is that at tier 10? How are you calculating that exactly? Does it take enhancer MU into consideration?
 
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