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Space PVP War!

Was Xane's ban justified?

  • Yes

    Votes: 29 38.2%

  • No

    Votes: 36 47.4%

  • I don't know

    Votes: 11 14.5%
  • Total voters
    76
Xane

Xane

Old Alpha
Banned
Joined
Jan 11, 2012
Posts
717
Location
USA
Society
Nebula Virus Elite
Avatar Name
Kane Xane Crossing
Four Pirates including my self attacked and almost destroyed the Kronan on 2016-08-24 at calypso space station.

They ran into the safe zone before we could completely destroy and loot them. After several more attempts they continued to run back into the safe zone before being destroyed. 15 minutes of battling wasted.

We decided that the best way to take them down would be by launching a warp mine to bring them out of warp farther away from the safezones. So I sent my crew out to the warp gate to drop the mine and wait for them. I of course had to hold them from warping while my crew got into position and drop the warp mine. Once they had deployed the warp mine I disengaged the Kronan and joined my fellow Pirates for the slaughter. This probably took five minutes.

Fast forward two days later my account is locked for disrupting their warp drive!

I don't understand why all these space PVP game mechanics are even in the game, each time I get banned I find a new way we are not allowed to use them.

The reason support gave me for locking my account was "without the intention to PVP"!!

Four pirates shooting non stop four 10 minutes while they keep running into the safe zone, that's not PVP intention!?!?!

Dropping a warp mines to bring them out of warp and loot them, that's not PVP intention?!?!

Give me a break, if anyone had any dreams of some epic space battles those dreams are being eroded. Logout all by itself has almost completely removed any intensive pirates would have to attacked a Mothership. Now we can't even do it for fun or else risk getting banned.
 
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Would like to hear the other site. I don't trust what PIRATS tell!

I can't believe, that only a normal space fight with warp mines causing a bann. There must be more.
 
This brings us to one of the great philosophical dilemmas of MMOs...

If they don't shoot back, is it really "PvP"? :laugh: (I could be wrong, maybe they shot back)

I'm fairly certain if one player in a quad is repeatedly shot down trying to leave a space station they can report the avatar for abuse/harassment.

So I suppose this is the same thing from MA's perspective. Constantly assaulting the same ship (that's simply trying to get from point A to point B) for 20-30 minutes with your buddies seems to lean more towards a personal vendetta than the spirit of PvP.

Sort of like Corpse-camping in traditional MMOs like World of Warcraft.
 
trance said:
Would like to hear the other site. I don't trust what PIRATS tell!

I can't believe, that only a normal space fight with warp mines causing a bann. There must be more.
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There is not much more to it than that. From the Kronan's perspective they got attacked and it was clear they were going to get destroyed so they flew back to the safe zone, this happened several times. Then finally it was just me left attacking and disrupting their warp for five minutes.

They(Kronan) can claim my intentions were not to pvp but they know in reality there are multiple scenarios in which it is acceptable for one quad to disrupt their warp sequence. Example...waiting for reinforcements to arrive......dropping a warp mine....etc

On the support side of things they know exactly what our intentions were as they could see our chat conversations, and it is support that has established what is allowed concerning disrupting warp flight.

So for me to get banned for this is completely contradictory to what has been established.
 
ZPF said:
This brings us to one of the great philosophical dilemmas of MMOs...

If they don't shoot back, is it really "PvP"? :laugh: (I could be wrong, maybe they shot back)

I'm fairly certain if one player in a quad is repeatedly shot down trying to leave a space station they can report the avatar for abuse/harassment.

So I suppose this is the same thing from MA's perspective. Constantly assaulting the same ship (that's simply trying to get from point A to point B) for 20-30 minutes with your buddies seems to lean more towards a personal vendetta than the spirit of PvP.

Sort of like Corpse-camping in traditional MMOs like World of Warcraft.
Click to expand...

First they were trying to shoot back. Second they were not shot down repeated, they ran back to the safe zone repeatedly. If they had stayed in the PVP and defended themselves we would have looted them and that would have been the end of the fight.

Some ships have a high SI and it takes time to destroy them....especially if they run back to the safezone and fully repair. Are you saying there is a time limit on how long we can attack a ship?
 
In other news, North Korea almost orbited a 5 kilo satellite.


...almost
 
Xane said:
First they were trying to shoot back. Second they were not shot down repeated, they ran back to the safe zone repeatedly. If they had stayed in the PVP and defended themselves we would have looted them and that would have been the end of the fight.
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The point is in both situations the player(s) are being specifically targetted and constantly engaged by another player(s) relentlessly. You could have simply found someone else to shoot at, but you didn't.

At the end of the day "harassment" is subjective and MA decides the guidelines. It's a bit of a stretch, but we don't know what the exact report against you was. Is it possible they pointed out a long term trend of similar behavior against them?
 
ZPF said:
The point is in both situations the player(s) are being specifically targetted and constantly engaged by another player(s) relentlessly. You could have simply found someone else to shoot at, but you didn't.

At the end of the day "harassment" is subjective and MA decides the guidelines. It's a bit of a stretch, but we don't know what the exact report against you was. Is it possible they pointed out a long term trend of similar behavior against them?
Click to expand...

OK let me explain this little bit. With a MS with the SI such as the Kronan one single quad cannot reasonably hope to destroy it on their own. So it takes many Coordinating together(a group effort and investment) to bring down a MS of that size. So yes during this battle we are focusing all our efforts towards destroying this ship and constantly shooting at just that one ship taking it's SI down to zero and looting it. This is how space pvp works concerning a MS. There is no rule that says if you fail to destroy they are now free from any pvp.

You are right about the possibility of them pointing out my long term actions against them. I have been punished in the past for simply disrupting their warp as retaliation for them trying to police us in space. This is how these boundaries for disrupting a warp have been established and explained to me.

Having said that I have followed the rules given to me and still I'm getting punished.
 
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I really like the sound of space battles and the one you talk about seems epic, but engaging in them should be optional for all parties involved.

By making the attack you are ruining the enjoyment of another participant who is trying to innocently travel to another part of the universe, which is (arguably) against the EULA.

I can't see how any pirate can make an attack without breaking this...
 
A pirate complaining about being made to walk the plank :)
 
Its MA who decides if the rules have been broken or not, not you. You said yourself that you prevented warp for 5 minutes allegedly while a warp mine could be laid at the warp gate. MA clearly thought that this was excessive and amounted to harassment regardless of the reason. By the way, I say allegedly because there are at least two caly warp gates. How did you know which one to mine?
 
matthew said:
I really like the sound of space battles and the one you talk about seems epic, but engaging in them should be optional for all parties involved.

By making the attack you are ruining the enjoyment of another participant who is trying to innocently travel to another part of the universe, which is (arguably) against the EULA.

I can't see how any pirate can make an attack without breaking this...
Click to expand...

Not that I am on the side of pirates but PVP space is made to encourage pirating and by it's very nature pirating is a one sided affair. (people don't agree to be pirated, generally).

Also as Xane says to take down a MS is going to involve a lot of planning and repeated attempts and warp mines (harassment). This is the nature of pirating.

So if MA are now saying that 'pirating ' is against EULA then they really have to remove PVP from space or make an option available as to whether or not you participate in pirating PVP when in space.
 
Looks like you are getting shafted Xane. its my opinion that those harassment rules dont apply in pvp space and if a MS wanted to they could have easily defended itself by shooting you down. In this case rather waste ped by doing a normal activity (shooting on mothership guns) they save ped by complaining. Perhaps next time lead with the warp mine?
 
krazykat said:
MA clearly thought that this was excessive and amounted to harassment regardless of the reason.
Click to expand...

This is not what MA said, please take the time to read my first post.

Xane said:
The reason support gave me for locking my account was "without the intention to PVP"
Click to expand...

They said nothing about harassment or my actions being excessive, they simply said my intentions were not to pvp. Which is obviously incorrect.

krazykat said:
By the way, I say allegedly because there are at least two caly warp gates. How did you know which one to mine?
Click to expand...

What does that matter, even if we put the mine at the wrong gate what were our intentions?
 
Xane said:
This is not what MA said, please take the time to read my first post.



They said nothing about harassment or my actions being excessive, they simply said my intentions were not to pvp. Which is obviously incorrect.



What does that matter, even if we put the mine at the wrong gate what were our intentions?
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No they don't say it was excessive or harassment. But just sitting there and putting in a shot every time the ship tries to warp and to continue to to do this for 5 minutes IS harassment. and as I said before, its MA's interpretation that counts, not yours
 
matthew said:
I really like the sound of space battles and the one you talk about seems epic, but engaging in them should be optional for all parties involved.

By making the attack you are ruining the enjoyment of another participant who is trying to innocently travel to another part of the universe, which is (arguably) against the EULA.

I can't see how any pirate can make an attack without breaking this...
Click to expand...

Thing is, Space is PVP, there is a warning when your entering and that is your agreement to partake in PVP. Giving an option is the end of motherships, warp drive and space. Yeah we all hate Pirates, but they create risk that in turn helps Mothership owners, Taxis and stops all loot been taken to caly or ark and destroying small planets already weak economy.
 
Back in the day pre certain MS changes I would agree that this could be classed as harrasment but the playing field is rather more even now when it comes to mothership defence .
So Im at a loss as to why there was no real space battle here . :scratch2:
 
krazykat said:
No they don't say it was excessive or harassment. But just sitting there and putting in a shot every time the ship tries to warp and to continue to to do this for 5 minutes IS harassment. and as I said before, its MA's interpretation that counts, not yours
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I'm not arguing that this isn't MA call, I'm trying to point out that MA has contradicted them selves in this situation by locking my account. They have stated that you can disrupt a MS warp if your intentions are to PVP and one example they gave me was you can disrupt a warp ship if you were waiting for reinforcements to arrive and attack. This example falls perfectly inline with what took place on this occasion. I was disrupting their warp specifically waiting for my crew to arrive at the warp mine so we could engage them in PVP away from the safezones.

The mechanics to do this are ingame and have been for a long time, MA's main concern when using these mechanics is that your intentions be PVP. It should be obvious to anyone especially MA who has access to our soc chat logs of us coordinating the warp mine drop that this was PVP intention.

And yet my account is still locked I am very curious to see what MA's explanation for this is.
 
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Xane said:
I'm not arguing that this isn't MA call, I'm trying to point out that MA has contradicted them selves in this situation by locking my account. They have stated that you can disrupt a MS warp if your intentions are to PVP and one example they gave me was you can disrupt a warp ship if you were waiting for reinforcements to arrive and attack. This example falls perfectly inline with what took place on this occasion. I was disrupting their warp specifically waiting for my crew to arrive at the warp mine so we could engage them in PVP away from the safezones.

The mechanics to do this are ingame and have been for a long time, MA's main concern when using these mechanics is that your intentions be PVP. It should be obvious to anyone especially MA who has access to our soc chat logs of us coordinating the warp mine drop that this was PVP intention.

And yet my account is still locked I am very curious to see what MA's explanation for this is.
Click to expand...

Oh I see well MA will say that as you were on your own at current location then you did not intend PVP, only if your 'friends' were present could you intention PVP, at leaST it IS MY GUESS GIVEN THE DYNAMICS OF THE SITUATION. yOU COULD NOT INTEND pvp AT THE GIVEN MOMENT YOU DEPLOYED THE MINE. bUT TO BE FAIR IT IS ALL SEMANTICS AND IT SOUNDS TO ME AS IF YOU PLANNED pvp WHICH i WOULD HAVE THOuGHT WAS INTENTION ENOUGH. (sorry caps)
 
voom said:
Oh I see well MA will say that as you were on your own at current location then you did not intend PVP, only if your 'friends' were present could you intention PVP, at leaST it IS MY GUESS GIVEN THE DYNAMICS OF THE SITUATION. yOU COULD NOT INTEND pvp AT THE GIVEN MOMENT YOU DEPLOYED THE MINE. bUT TO BE FAIR IT IS ALL SEMANTICS AND IT SOUNDS TO ME AS IF YOU PLANNED pvp WHICH i WOULD HAVE THOuGHT WAS INTENTION ENOUGH. (sorry caps)
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If that is what they end up saying then I would reply:

Your provided example of one quad disrupting a MS to wait for reinforcements being OK contradicts this new statement, I was doing exactly what you said was OK to do in regards to disrupting a warp.
 
Xane said:
If that is what they end up saying then I would reply:

Your provided example of one quad disrupting a MS to wait for reinforcements being OK contradicts this new statement, I was doing exactly what you said was OK to do in regards to disrupting a warp.
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Maybe I missed something, where does MA say that one quad disrupting a MS warp is Ok?, or is this the 'fact' that is causing the controversy?
 
For real dont see any thing here can be consider harass
if someone realy play old stly games (ultima online , lineage 2 or something more hardcore pvp) know about safezone pvp , you can sit out safezon and wait you target many time you want , target run back to safezone to prevent get killed and looted and is going happen over hours in cases , special if you carry on valuable things (remid in entropia a joke since you can logoff with loot and dont matter) and its not consider harass

Harass usual consider if you killed one guy and keep kill same guy even you looted his multiple time in short timeframe (usual 10min) in this case he only delayed service because he want destroy kronan and kronan keep back to safe zone

Sorry mindark and pve paladins but guys are wrong its why i agree with someone in the post said remove space and put a tp with fee to hangar owners if you go do this kind crapy please dont make waste my time fly between empty space or useless content
 
voom said:
Maybe I missed something, where does MA say that one quad disrupting a MS warp is Ok?, or is this the 'fact' that is causing the controversy?
Click to expand...

It's not actually stated publicly anywhere...this is something that was said to me from support after I was previously locked for disrupting a warp ship. There kind of like rules that get made up as they need them. But regardless of how the rules come about once they establish them I kind of expect them to hold true.
 
Vadio said:
For real dont see any thing here can be consider harass
if someone realy play old stly games (ultima online , lineage 2 or something more hardcore pvp) know about safezone pvp , you can sit out safezon and wait you target many time you want , target run back to safezone to prevent get killed and looted and is going happen over hours in cases , special if you carry on valuable things (remid in entropia a joke since you can logoff with loot and dont matter) and its not consider harass
Click to expand...

I remember my days on Tibia (all world is a PVP zone except housing and storage zones) when a PK spree started basically you were stuck in SZ and they would line up outside the exit waiting for players to either blindly walk out or try to make a break for it.
 
Back in the day when quads were allowed total freedom to stop warping with no intention to pvp this is what happened to me.

I was on a privateer that was to warp from Arkadia to Rocktropia.
I dont remember why there was conflict between privateer owner and another player.
The other player took pot shots at us all the way to Rocktropia. So what should have been a warp turned into a trip lasting more then 2 hours.

My understanding is this is why rule was brought in about there must be intention to pvp if you disrupt warp.

There is currently now a lot of confusion. For example Varyag was play fighting in training ground with a mothership where there was no looting it was just play fighting. Apparently because we did not ask ??permission?? to pvp said ship inspite of the tons of free skills they got from it they saw fit to cry to mind ark saying Varyag disrupted their gameplay and is a bully and they posted video on youtube going wah wah Varyag is a bully.

So now im honestly confused about the state of space pvp.
Have instructed my crew does not matter if it play fighting with no looting we dont do nothing like that again ever im fed up with the politics, deception, misinformation, spies, lies and slander. You do not have to be a pirate to be reviled for doing pvp in space.
 
Xane said:
It's not actually stated publicly anywhere...this is something that was said to me from support after I was previously locked for disrupting a warp ship. There kind of like rules that get made up as they need them. But regardless of how the rules come about once they establish them I kind of expect them to hold true.
Click to expand...

Yes I would agree that they should hold true, but if this was said by one member of support, it is possible that another may disagree, particularly if a case is presented before them ( which I don't know if it was or wasn't in this case) Therefore, I would think that MA need to make rules of engagement for space PVP public and stick by them.
 
All I can say to this is: +REPx1,000,000,000 to MA for this.
 
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