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Space PVP War!

Was Xane's ban justified?

  • Yes

    Votes: 29 38.2%

  • No

    Votes: 36 47.4%

  • I don't know

    Votes: 11 14.5%
  • Total voters
    76
as i am not sure if i have met you personally yet i am not sure if hacking is correct. although im around 100% sure that you use at least the speed bug / exploit as i have not met ANY pirate yet that has not used it as it is the only way for a pirate to get up to another quad wing which would otherwise be out of reach. so i will definitely call you an exploiter.
 
Me Really Never said:
as i am not sure if i have met you personally yet i am not sure if hacking is correct. although im around 100% sure that you use at least the speed bug / exploit as i have not met ANY pirate yet that has not used it as it is the only way for a pirate to get up to another quad wing which would otherwise be out of reach. so i will definitely call you an exploiter.
Click to expand...

and can you offer any proof of this?
 
Me Really Never said:
as i am not sure if i have met you personally yet i am not sure if hacking is correct. although im around 100% sure that you use at least the speed bug / exploit as i have not met ANY pirate yet that has not used it as it is the only way for a pirate to get up to another quad wing which would otherwise be out of reach. so i will definitely call you an exploiter.
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racist :) too short
 
It is mentioned in this thread that a warpship service "naturally is given more consideration" when putting in a support case.
Not sure what is meant that it is natural for some players to get better consideration then others for reasons having NOTHING to do with merits of support case sent.

Also it is mentioned that if you dont want to fight you are not obliged to.
We can all agree it is your choice within rules to do as you will in this game.
Some players fight back when pirates attack. Some players run instead of fighting.
What most players DONT do is whine and cry to Mind Ark each time they get in space fight or running from it.
The concern some players have is the money and time that is wasted on bogus support cases.
You dont want to fight? Fine dont fight. But PLEASE stop sending in support cases whining about something which is allowed in the game. If you think it is bad idea to have space pvp then ask Mind Ark to change their laws instead of harassing players who are following Mind Ark rules.

Totally in support of idea of teleporting to other planets. Many players want it and probably not hard for Mind Ark to implement it.
 
mg Joda VVV said:
racist :) too short
Click to expand...

using unfair methods to steal from people and enrich oneself is pretty much the description of a pirate.

and there were numerous times where i was flying with my quad in a straight line when a pirate (different times, different pirates) was following me and shooting at me all the time but not hitting me. after a few minutes he got close enough to finally hit me. both flying in a quad with the same speed and the distance getting shorter to get in range to get shot is pretty much obvious use of speed bugs / exploiting. this micjack guy is one of them and as you are big buddys with him i highly doubt that you dont use his "tricks" as well. you can try to fool people and lie to them that you dont use it but well... being a liar and fool people is pretty much one of the "skills" of a pirate as well per definition.
 
Me Really Never said:
using unfair methods to steal from people and enrich oneself is pretty much the description of a pirate.

and there were numerous times where i was flying with my quad in a straight line when a pirate (different times, different pirates) was following me and shooting at me all the time but not hitting me. after a few minutes he got close enough to finally hit me. both flying in a quad with the same speed and the distance getting shorter to get in range to get shot is pretty much obvious use of speed bugs / exploiting. this micjack guy is one of them and as you are big buddys with him i highly doubt that you dont use his "tricks" as well. you can try to fool people and lie to them that you dont use it but well... being a liar and fool people is pretty much one of the "skills" of a pirate as well per definition.
Click to expand...

So no proof then got it. FYI you flying in a straight line means nothing. You can fly straight and I can fly completely out of sight and out of shooting range, then at the right time fly back in sight, back in shooting range and kill you. No exploits needed.
 
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Me Really Never said:
using unfair methods to steal from people and enrich oneself is pretty much the description of a pirate.

and there were numerous times where i was flying with my quad in a straight line when a pirate (different times, different pirates) was following me and shooting at me all the time but not hitting me. after a few minutes he got close enough to finally hit me. both flying in a quad with the same speed and the distance getting shorter to get in range to get shot is pretty much obvious use of speed bugs / exploiting. this micjack guy is one of them and as you are big buddys with him i highly doubt that you dont use his "tricks" as well. you can try to fool people and lie to them that you dont use it but well... being a liar and fool people is pretty much one of the "skills" of a pirate as well per definition.
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racist means because you think if he is a pirate ,you judge him by using exploits , because, you think all pirates is same :)

and you talk about pirates as a people kind , that use unfair methods to steal from people, i do not see any unfair method used in this thread.
 
Xane said:
So no proof then got it. FYI you flying in a straight line means nothing. You can fly straight and I can fly completely out of sight and out of shooting range, then at the right time fly back in sight, back in shooting range and kill you. No exploits needed.
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then explain me the physics besides that please. when object a flys a straight line at a certain speed and object b can fly with up to maximum the same speed as object a and object b is behind object a considering obejct a's destination then it is impossible for object b to ever reach object a without increasing its speed. if you do know other physics then me please explain it to me.
you may not know this but a straight line is the shortest connection between 2 points.
so yes. without exploits it is not possible.
 
Me Really Never said:
then explain me the physics besides that please. when object a flys a straight line at a certain speed and object b can fly with up to maximum the same speed as object a and object b is behind object a considering obejct a's destination then it is impossible for object b to ever reach object a without increasing its speed. if you do know other physics then me please explain it to me.
you may not know this but a straight line is the shortest connection between 2 points.
so yes. without exploits it is not possible.
Click to expand...

Knowing how to do these things is what makes me good at my craft. I'm not obligated to share the details with you, besides it wouldn't be in my best interests to give up my secrets :)
 
you just marked yourself an exploiter. i described to you how something is physically impossible without exploiting and you said you can still do it. but well. i knew it from the start anyway... thx for the confirmation though. i hope you get your well deserved perma ban.
 
Xane said:
Knowing how to do these things is what makes me good at my craft. I'm not obligated to share the details with you, besides it wouldn't be in my best interests to give up my secrets :)
Click to expand...

That sentence really makes you sound like you have knowledge of some exploits :dunce:
 
XarcX said:
That sentence really makes you sound like you have knowledge of some exploits :dunce:
Click to expand...

Anything can sound how you would like it to if you just take it out of context. I would suggest you read the post I made just previous to the one you commented on, specifically the last three words.
 
exploiting is not really a secret as everybody knows u r just spamming the map key with the right timing. otherwise it is, like i stated, physically impossible. That means that it is, in fact, not possible. and as you dont want to say how else it should be possible or how you bend the laws of physics in a non exploiting way we have to assume that you are exploiting to do so.
 
Me Really Never said:
you just marked yourself an exploiter. i described to you how something is physically impossible without exploiting and you said you can still do it. but well. i knew it from the start anyway... thx for the confirmation though. i hope you get your well deserved perma ban.
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The way mindark made vehicles and avatars move allows strafing which in a 3d environment can increase your potential speed along a 'perceived' straight line.
Also keep in mind that your 'straight' line might change altitude in space, which means you throw away speed if you dont utilize 'strafing'.
Of course you can argue that an avatar or vehicle should not be able to strafe without their forward speed being considerably reduced, but i guess many players wouldnt like that during hunting planetside either.
 
i dont know but when i put automove on and dont ever touch the controls again i should be travelling in the same direction at maximum possible speed, as there is zero change of direction.
And strafing to increase their speed has been said to be an exploit (said by MA) and there have been people being banned thanks to that.
 
Me Really Never said:
i dont know but when i put automove on and dont ever touch the controls again i should be travelling in the same direction at maximum possible speed, as there is zero change of direction.
And strafing to increase their speed has been said to be an exploit (said by MA) and there have been people being banned thanks to that.
Click to expand...

There used to be a way of strafing in opposing directions which would lead to higher forward speed in the past, though i think that got fixed some years ago - atm if one pirate spots your flight vector and notifies another pirate further out that way im sure its not considered an exploit if that pirate starts traveling to the same target but uses strafing to catch up to you sideways.
 
John B Knight said:
There used to be a way of strafing in opposing directions which would lead to higher forward speed in the past, though i think that got fixed some years ago - atm if one pirate spots your flight vector and notifies another pirate further out that way im sure its not considered an exploit if that pirate starts traveling to the same target but uses strafing to catch up to you sideways.
Click to expand...

well in the cases i described though it was the same guy following me on the same straight line for a few minutes ( 2 or 3) until he catched up and got in range to shoot me. that shouldnt be possible should it? so either if you use strafing or the map key to increase ur speed it is an exploit.
 
Me Really Never said:
well in the cases i described though it was the same guy following me on the same straight line for a few minutes ( 2 or 3) until he catched up and got in range to shoot me. that shouldnt be possible should it? so either if you use strafing or the map key to increase ur speed it is an exploit.
Click to expand...

If his 'straight' line is in an slight angle to yours and he closes the angle by strafing it is still possible.
I get what you are saying that its wiered and looks like its an exploit, but then its mindark coding after all and they have left this ongoing for many years now.
Keep in mind they even introduced spacecrafts with different speeds, so its not like they want to guarantee everyone the same traveling speed in the long run.
In my opinion they should just reduce forward speed by the same amount that a player increases sideway speed and introduce different fuel types and engines for truely different travel speeds at respectively higher costs.
 
There is no speed advantage gained in space by using strafe.
 
Support is starting to reply....it's not looking good for me so far.
 
Xane said:
Support is starting to reply....it's not looking good for me so far.
Click to expand...

give us a too long didnt read of whats been typed before, i dont need the drama
 
Seems physics is much easier to debate then morality.
Bashing pirates (deserved or not) so much easier then answering if justice is only for a select few entropians.

If it is bad for pirates to use strafing which is mechanic of game do we also have to agree another mechanic of game (logging off) is also bad? Both logging off and strafing were not meant to give exploit but in the end that is the result. So do we want to talk exploits used by all or only those available to pirates? But hold on. Strafing can be used by anyone. So "poof" goes magic exploit only available to pirates.
So now we are left with "If a pirate uses exploit available to all they ought to get a perm ban" BUT if an exploit available only to a select few warpship owners gets used they are model citizens whose support cases are given much greater weight then the rest of us.

Whopping order stench of hypocrisy rolling through the universe wanted or not.
 
Xane said:
Support is starting to reply....it's not looking good for me so far.
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I imagine you have specifically told them who dropped a mine and when, as part of your claimed intentions?
I have no direct knowledge here, but the story seems to end when you allowed Kronan to warp, so there should be clear correlation of the times, even if Kronan did not get dropped out of warp, or whatever happened next...

Have support confirmed, or been unwilling to discuss this? It seems relevant, after all.
Also, can support please confirm to you/to us that they have asked for a higher up/concensus decision about this?
As we have the situation right now, it might be good to get as much of a solution out of it as possible!

edit: on strafing etc, if some people understand how something works, but anyone can do it, then I guess the 'unintended consequencies' argument comes into play. The map key toggle is thus for me clearly an exploit, but knowing how the 'fabric of space is stretched' in EU would be borderline one way or the other, depending...
For example, if strafing is said to mimic the firing of an additional side thruster, then a real spaceship would also be able to increase a specific vector velocity, but it should work in all planes equally. Maybe the EU universe is inconsistent - now wouldn't that be a surprise lol!
 
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Well they said they will unlock my account but I may need the power of the community to understand their response. At this point I don't know if what I did was allowed or not?? LOL
 
Here is what has been said so far:


2016-08-25 17:02 You wrote:


Tried to login today and got a message that my account is locked. What is going on? Thanks.

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2016-08-26 07:13 You wrote:


Can we get whatever this situation is resolved before the weekend? Otherwise I feel like it won't even be looked into until Monday and I don't think that it's fair to me to leave my account locked for four days with out even telling me why.

I know your busy but I'm sure we can resolve this quickly.

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2016-08-26 08:37 Entropia Universe Support:


Hi Xane,

Thank you for your support case.

Single shooting a Mothership without the intention to PVP and just to disrupt warping is not allowed.

The fight was reported, you were all commended for a good fight by the Mothership crew but once the fight was over you stayed and continued to disrupt their warping.

Do you have a comment to this?

Kind regards,
Ulf | Entropia Universe Support


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2016-08-26 18:04 You wrote:


I admit to disrupting The Kronan's warp sequence but I thought you(support) clearly explained the allowed use of disrupting the warp sequence in support case #303237

"It is fully acceptable to do so if you intended to bring the mothership down or you are awaiting backup"

"This means that you are allowed to hunt them and attack them, but you are however not allowed to abuse the warp mechanic unless you are going to attack the mothership, to just interrupt it with no intention of PVP is not ok."

It was my understanding that we are allowed to disrupt the a Motherships's warp sequence as long as the intention was to PVP.

We just spent 15 minutes attacking them but they kept running back tot he safe zone before we could destroy them(there were four of us pirates attacking). So we decided that our best chance of destroying them was to attack them further away from the safe zone and so we decided to drop a warp mine so bring them out of warp away from the safezones. The problem was the place that we needed to drop the warp mine wasn't were we were currently at so Micjack needed time to bring the warp mine to the location to drop it and my crew needed time to get to that location and get setup. I had to hold the Kronan from warping in order to allow them enough time to get into position for ther warp mine. Here is our Soc/Team chat whent his was happening.


2016-08-24 02:24:20 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] warp mine? i have 1
2016-08-24 02:24:32 [Team] [Kane Xane Crossing] im down
2016-08-24 02:24:38 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] keep them here for a

sec
2016-08-24 02:24:45 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] ill drop then you guys

come
2016-08-24 02:24:50 [Team] [Kane Xane Crossing] ok
2016-08-24 02:24:59 [Team] [Jack Jack McCrackin] k
2016-08-24 02:29:40 [Team] [Kane Xane Crossing] you guys go to micjack
2016-08-24 02:29:53 [Team] [Kane Xane Crossing] i have to hold them

here
2016-08-24 02:30:12 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] no you dont
2016-08-24 02:30:35 [Team] [Kane Xane Crossing] i know but it takes

some time to get there
2016-08-24 02:30:58 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] true
2016-08-24 02:30:58 [Team] [Kane Xane Crossing] when all three of ytou

are there ill come
2016-08-24 02:32:07 [Team] [Kane Xane Crossing] let me kno when
2016-08-24 02:31:13 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] [59007, 68780, -289]
2016-08-24 02:31:15 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] here

2016-08-24 02:32:07 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] jack...in a team like

this loot does not spit fair...so we split it equal with who ever is

killing

2016-08-24 02:32:07 [Team] [Kane Xane Crossing] let me kno when
2016-08-24 02:32:20 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] if we get loot we give

to 1 guy and he splits
2016-08-24 02:32:31 [Team] [Jack Jack McCrackin] ok
2016-08-24 02:32:37 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] cursor you close?
2016-08-24 02:32:49 [Team] [Jack Jack McCrackin] here
2016-08-24 02:33:02 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] sit where i am jack or

youll get the warp bug
2016-08-24 02:33:06 [Team] [Samir Cursor Saigh] pos
2016-08-24 02:33:13 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] [59007, 68785, -288]
2016-08-24 02:33:23 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] ill explain later what

warp bug is
2016-08-24 02:33:37 [Team] [Jack Jack McCrackin] hows this?

2016-08-24 02:33:44 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] perfect
2016-08-24 02:35:13 [Team] [Kane Xane Crossing] omw
2016-08-24 02:40:02 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] theres a gate up there i put a warp mine down
2016-08-24 02:40:07 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] it stops mpotherships
2016-08-24 02:40:12 [Team] [Jack Jack McCrackin] ok, i see
2016-08-24 02:40:17 [Team] [Troy micjack mcco] if they warp in we kill um


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2016-08-26 19:14 You wrote:


We ended up sitting there at the warp gate for over an hour waiting for the warp mines to deactivate their warp but it didn't work. Still I think our intentions were obvious, we were trying to destroy and loot them right? This is the intention of disrupting a warp sequence and the intention of a warp mine right?


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2016-08-27 22:16 You wrote:


This should have taken you all of five minutes to conclude that we obviously were attempting attack the Kronan in PVP via the warp mine we dropped.

If you going to say that a single quad is allowed to disrupt a warp so long as the intention is to attack;

Your words:
"It is fully acceptable to do so if you intended to bring the mothership down or you are awaiting backup"

Then dropping a warp mine should indicate that our intention was to attack them after their warp was deactivated vie the mine. Therefore my delaying their warp in order to allow enough time to drop the mine should be acceptable according to the reasoning you provided in support case #303237.

It is EXTREMELY confusing and frustrating you giving me these rules/guidelines regarding wrap disruption and then banning me when I follow them. Now its been almost 72 hours my account is locked??? My account should have never been locked in the first place!!!

You did not do any sort of investigation prior to locking my account, this much is clear. You have allowed the Kronan crew to manipulate you yet again into wrongly punishing their enemies. So many people have started to reached out to me because of this issue and conveyed the exact same sentiments that the Kronan is using support to gain advantages in the game by eliminating those that oppose them.



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2016-08-29 11:09 Entropia Universe Support:


Hi Xane,

Thank you for your reply.

"The fight was reported, you were all commended for a good fight by the Mothership crew but once the fight was over you stayed and continued to disrupt their warping."

"was over you stayed and continued to disrupt their warping."

As stated to you, the fight was good but once it was came to the point that the fight was over that is where the issue is, this is something you've not answered or even spoke about, you keep insisting that you played by the rules which we even told you that you did during the fight but it has nothing to do with what we are inquiring to you about.

All you've stated so far is irrelevant as it is something we've already stated to you in our initial question.

So did you or did you not at the end of the fight continue to disrupt the warp?

Kind regards,
Ulf | Entropia Universe Support


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2016-08-29 11:28 You wrote:


Yes as I have already said I did disrupt the Kronans warp after the other three of my crew left to drop the warp mine.

You keep saying the fight was over? Who decides when the fight is over? We were not done fighting just because the Kronan kept running back to the safe zones.

We simply changed our strategy to drop a warp mine to enable us to attack them farther from the safe zones.


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2016-08-29 11:30 You wrote:


I stalled them at the space station for about five minutes while my crew dropped the warp mine.


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2016-08-29 11:51 You wrote:


This is not a complicated issue. Let's just come to a conclusion and move on.

Either you are allowed to disrupt a MS's warp in order to buy time to drop a warp mine, or your not?



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2016-08-29 12:47 You wrote:


I'm going to keep writing this because I'm not sure you understand what I've been telling you.

The last five minutes of interaction I had with the Kronan on that occasion was me by myself disrupting their warp while my crew was dropping a warp mine at the warp gate with the intention of attacking them there. Once they had gotten into place and dropped the warp mine I then left the Kronan and joined my crew at the warp gate to hopefully continue to try and destroy the Kronan. If this doesn't qualify as intentional PVP and a reason to delay a warp then please just tell me so.



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2016-08-29 12:58 Entropia Universe Support:


Hi Xane,

Thank you for your reply.

"Either you are allowed to disrupt a MS's warp in order to buy time to drop a warp mine, or your not?"

This is not what we are discussing, I've already told you that this was fine and even commended you on a good fight.

Our question which you did answer now in a better way was that when the fighting was over and that means towards the end of the fight regardless of which end it was, them escaping or you leaving to remain then to disrupt the warp is not allowed.

Hence you may understand that it is indeed a complicated issue as it is not easy to define what is what just as you said when it comes to who defines when the fight is over.

As you've stated you've already met the lock duration and we will now unlock your account and we've informed you in regards to this, so if a similar situation should occur you will be aware of that you are allowed to stall but when the fighting is done there shouldn't be any reason to call harassment.

Take care and best of luck.

Kind regards,
Ulf | Entropia Universe Support



I don't know what that last response means, maybe I'm just tired or dumb.
 
Warp harassment was an issue for quite some time. I guess the history needs infilled a little here. It used to be possible for a single quad to stop an entire large ship from warping with a single shot. The issue here was not so much that, but a design flaw in the range of the large ships guns. Being much slower, and not having suitable range, the large ship was limited in how to deal with the pestering pirate.

Warp harassment would consist of pirates with no intention in engaging in battle, utilizing this design flaw in order to disrupt the game play of others. Not for PvP purposes.

It is there for quite right that those who partake in such activities are discouraged from doing so.

I think the issue here is simply the line between genuinely wishing to engage in PvP, or just being a pest. The decision would lie in the intent to PvP, and the factors surrounding that. Such as time warp interrupted for, shots fired etc.

The big issue then arises around "intent". We could all claim to have certain intents in hind sight. Hence it is hard for support to gauge which side the action lies on.

From each side, Pirate and MS, it could be seen as either way. Xane felt he had intent as they were trying to warp mine to engage in battle. Ms clearly doesn't know this, so from their point all they have is a single pirate pestering them with warp harassment. Its interesting what MA are saying about the battle being over. It would be interesting to hear from the other side also and what went on.

In any event, it is actually ludicrous that a single little quad can stop an entire mothership from departing with one shot... a complete design flaw. I presume the banning of people who utilize that is to address that issue.

I would not like to think that the support system would be abused in such an instance where harassment was not involved. Gives a terrible sense of the boy who cried wolf, and support may not be so quick to respond to genuine cases in the future.


An important point to consider is that MA did introduce a leveler for Motherships to begin to combat this issue.

In any event, there are 3 sides to every story. His, theirs, and the truth. ;)
 
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