Space PVP War!

Was Xane's ban justified?

  • Yes

    Votes: 29 38.2%
  • No

    Votes: 36 47.4%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 11 14.5%

  • Total voters
    76
then they use another ava so you cant see it happy then ?
and that has nothing to do with this thread in the first place
 
Was asked what rattle my cage.
Here is what rattles my cage.
This thread is about compelling moral issues.
It is about some of us are more equal then others.
It is about some players are allowed to exploit, lie and manipulate while other get banned while following rules as mind ark has set them out.

Some of us are fed up with having less equality then others.
Some of us are fed up that somebody can scream "they did not stop fighting when I said the fight was over" and get someone banned.
Some of us pissed off that against our will we compelled to pay for bogus support cases.

The well is poisoned. Of course my cage is rattled!!!!

Just would like to know that most of the community cares as much as I do about a healthy player base where people can feel secure that they will be treated fair.

Absolutely my confidence that I would get fair hearing has evaporated. This is why I have given strict instruction to Varyag crew no more play fighting in training ground or anywhere else in PVP space. Cause gosh someone going to say to Mind Ark "I told Yoshii fight was over and she took a shot after" and then be banned. Frack this shit so hey open season to anyone who wants to shoot Varyag down because we wont fire a shot. Promise you also we wont file a support case about it either.
 
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Are you still banned Xane? If not just put it all behind you and accept that people just do not like pirates.

We have to put up with you because your activities are part of the time - and maybe even make us all better persons in dealing with your shenanigans.
But nobody has to love you - in fact you will be flat out getting people to grant you a fair go.

And in future realise that a battle is over when its over (maybe wars are never over, but certain battles are)

People like you are why I avoid space & also lootable PvP areas planetside. (unless I feel I need the excitement maybe)
 
Support: This was already answered in your previous case, please see previous answer.
...

Not seen answers to what xane asked several posts ago now.
I'm not even on xane's side but it sure doesn't look to me like support has answered properly and clearly.

Something JBK said made me have a bit more understanding for support briefly. It is probably true that they don't really understand what they are supposed to be deciding on, or at least didn't initially. So I was going to make a bit of an apology to Ulf, who has at least been engaging in answers. But I do also have to criticise not being clear, then when questioned saying that the question has been answered. No, it hasn't.

Unless of course Ulf's answer actually means that is doesn't matter whether you are guilty or not - it is complaints which get a person banned, even if it is then decided that nothing was actually done wrong.

This is the only interpretation which seems to make any sense, even though I find it ridiculous. Feel free to mention that posters like myself also do not feel that the question has been answered...
 
support answered but it kinda contradicts the decision to lock his account.

2016-08-29 12:58 Entropia Universe Support:


Hi Xane,

Thank you for your reply.

"Either you are allowed to disrupt a MS's warp in order to buy time to drop a warp mine, or your not?"

This is not what we are discussing, I've already told you that this was fine and even commended you on a good fight.
 
sucky crybaby wanted Xane banned and got all their friends to cry to and that is what got Xane banned plain and simple.

If it were not one thing that would have worked would have been another

They had days to nag mind ark until finally they caved and did what was asked and lowered the hammer on Xane.

The squeaky wheel gets greased. Even if only to make the infernal noise stop.

My ideas is this. everyone get together who has gotten the hammer cause of sucky crybaby.
Pour over all the excuses and obfuscations that got you banned.
Observe sucky crybaby who is bound to trip over one of their numerous traps they have set to catch the unwary player.
Send in support case to Mind Ark.
 
sucky crybaby wanted Xane banned and got all their friends to cry to and that is what got Xane banned plain and simple.

If it were not one thing that would have worked would have been another

They had days to nag mind ark until finally they caved and did what was asked and lowered the hammer on Xane.

The squeaky wheel gets greased. Even if only to make the infernal noise stop.

My ideas is this. everyone get together who has gotten the hammer cause of sucky crybaby.
Pour over all the excuses and obfuscations that got you banned.
Observe sucky crybaby who is bound to trip over one of their numerous traps they have set to catch the unwary player.
Send in support case to Mind Ark.

You're not helping yourself any. You can make a point without going over the top.
 
It is not me im trying to help actually. I already lost several thousand ped due to mechanations of name_witheld and their friends. So im already bloodied and battered and toughened. I survived, started over, and Varyag crew bless their hearts kept Varyag going while my entropia life lay tattered.

Yes it is over the top what I said. Please everyone understand I did that on purpose to emphasize a point DO NOT send in support cases each one sent costs us all money. The staff who look over those cases have to be paid.

I appreciate that there has been much participation in this thread and even those I disagree with and those I agree and everyone in between thank you all for thinking this important enough to discuss.

Peace to all (including those among you who piss me off)
 
sucky crybaby wanted Xane banned and got all their friends to cry to and that is what got Xane banned plain and simple.

If it were not one thing that would have worked would have been another

They had days to nag mind ark until finally they caved and did what was asked and lowered the hammer on Xane.

The squeaky wheel gets greased. Even if only to make the infernal noise stop.

My ideas is this. everyone get together who has gotten the hammer cause of sucky crybaby.
Pour over all the excuses and obfuscations that got you banned.
Observe sucky crybaby who is bound to trip over one of their numerous traps they have set to catch the unwary player.
Send in support case to Mind Ark.

Your just getting boreing now. Most people don't care about space it's just a inconvenience to travel between planets. They care even less about your personal disputes with other mothership owners.
 
Im fine with being boring.

Im fine with Mind Ark bringing in teleports for those who dont want to use space to travel.

My crew appreciate me standing up and fighting for them when ship owner(s) take their stupid pills and give them a hard time.
 
In my opinion, xane quite clearly describes the version of events about "that occasion" and what he wants to know here:
___
The last five minutes of interaction I had with the Kronan on that occasion was me by myself disrupting their warp while my crew was dropping a warp mine at the warp gate with the intention of attacking them there. Once they had gotten into place and dropped the warp mine I then left the Kronan and joined my crew at the warp gate to hopefully continue to try and destroy the Kronan. If this doesn't qualify as intentional PVP and a reason to delay a warp then please just tell me so.
___
Of course, Kronan cannot know whether a mine has been dropped if it doesn't get stopped by it, so they can still complain that they were being held up. If support doesn't want regular complaints (so that a warp mine drop can be verified), then they are going to have to either a) say that no holding up of a ship is acceptable or b) get MA to put out a red warning comment in spacechat or wherever whenever a mine is dropped, so that MS crews can at least check that the condition was fulfilled.

I'm not saying that answer A is necessarily great, nor that B is something that support can promise, but xane did write clearly what he wants an answer about.
 
Just another point of view

This was an interesting thread to read. So here is my 2 cents, first on the ban and then secondly on many of the comments that have been posted.

Xane's ban:

It seems to me that the reason for the ban is in part related to the original ban that happened a year prior as indicated by Xane. At the time that Xane was engaging the MS, he was not engaging it as a pvp act at that moment. He was engaging in a tactic in preparation for a pvp act. I do not dispute Xane's assertion that he and his pirate friends were intending to take down the MS, however, allowing the warp disruption in this manner, even if in preparation for an attack would create a repeatable option for pirates to exploit a game mechanic. This being that any time a MS or Privateer was planning a warp flight (btw many of them run on a schedule) a group of pirates could coordinate to disrupt any flight the chose in this manner. So my interpretation for the rational for the ban is this, for an attack on a ship to be considered a pvp act then it must be with the immediate intention of engaging the other vessel for the purposes of destroying and looting it. Since that was not Xane's intention (his intention was to delay until preparations were made to later engage the MS to destroy it) it violates the definition of the pvp act (I know, I just defined the term, and it is not the explanation given by MA). My assumption about the ability to repeat the sequence may be questioned, but I am attempting to provide an explanation as to the rational of the ban given the information provided by Xane.

Pirate Hater Comments:
I don't like getting killed by pirates or by killers in pvp, but it is part of the game. If you don't like it, stay on one planet and stay out of the lootable pvp zones. If you don't like the limitations that sets on your game play, leave EU or take the risks involved. There is no reason to post anti-pirate rants.

Signed,
DaJugger
 
Well this seems pretty clear to me and MA got it right.

Your plan A was pointless. You had to know that given any reasonable amount of SI and only 4 quads attack force they would go back to safe zone before death. And to try that tactic repeatedly doesn't seem very smart. The fact you didn't have plan B ready(which should have been plan A IMO), isn't Kronan's fault and doesn't allow you to use harassment tactics while team go get warp mine set. Maybe if you had shot non stop those last 5 minutes making them once again go back to safety, it would be considered continuous battle.
 
30 pages of BS..
If it's pvp, you are allowed to shoot & fight.
Seems pretty easy & logical to me :scratch2:
 
Comment I made yesterday about throwing moral compass into trash bin was wrong. It did not help the debate of issue being discussed in this thread and I am sorry about making that comment.
 
30 pages of BS..
If it's pvp, you are allowed to shoot & fight.
Seems pretty easy & logical to me :scratch2:

Problem is, for this to be a legit comment, mothership guns need longer ranges. For such a big ship, they are at a disadvantage. Truth is.. Pirates have a history just shooting at motherships 1 time to disrupt a warp and continue this to inconvenience the service for up to 2 to 3 hours. While xane's crew may have wanted to drop a warp mine (thought those didn't work.. always told they didnt), I'm going to wager that there is a severe pattern of this disrupt behavior (I've been on kronan when it has happened) occurred. If you think of it like someone on kronan, this is exactly what it would look like and at some point enough is enough.

This is both a reflection of a balance (with gun ranges) problem and a problem with space design. Mindark wouldn't have to do anything if they fixed the issues that allows this to be problematic. Then they can let pvp be pvp.
 
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Problem is, for this to be a legit comment, mothership guns need longer ranges. For such a big ship, they are at a disadvantage. Truth is.. Pirates have a history just shooting at motherships 1 time to disrupt a warp and continue this to inconvenience the service for up to 2 to 3 hours. While xane's crew may have wanted to drop a warp mine (thought those didn't work.. always told they didnt), I'm going to wager that there is a severe pattern of this disrupt behavior (I've been on kronan when it has happened) occurred. If you think of it like someone on kronan, this is exactly what it would look like and at some point enough is enough.

This is both a reflection of a balance (with gun ranges) problem and a problem with space design. Mindark wouldn't have to do anything if they fixed the issues that allows this to be problematic. Then they can let pvp be pvp.

do you have any idea how many times my tp was interrupted at rig becouse some idiot felt like running into me 10 times in a row?
True, I know how to solve that but..
Isn't that just bad programming?
pvp is pvp.. if 1 shot isn't enough to justify cancelling a warp.. they (read MA) should change the mechanics.. not just ban someone.

TBH all the exploiters I've reported in the last 10 years... nothing happened to them, not even a temp ban or warning, so why be so serious this time?
I've seen ppl exploit & get an economical advantage of 10k ped/month & nothing happends.. but oooh my if you shoot someone or something in pvp..
I guess I'll go on another break for a few weeks, again out of principle.
Just like the last break I had when a pirate used the speed cheat to kill me.. costed me 15-20^ped, costed MA a whole lot more (me not playing for 3 weeks).

I really think it's time for MA to ban those who really exploit & warn those who walk the line.
Sadly enough tho, it seems to be that when you make serious money for MA with your exploit, you are allowed a whole lot more.
 
do you have any idea how many times my tp was interrupted at rig becouse some idiot felt like running into me 10 times in a row?
True, I know how to solve that but..
Isn't that just bad programming?
pvp is pvp.. if 1 shot isn't enough to justify cancelling a warp.. they (read MA) should change the mechanics.. not just ban someone.

TBH all the exploiters I've reported in the last 10 years... nothing happened to them, not even a temp ban or warning, so why be so serious this time?
I've seen ppl exploit & get an economical advantage of 10k ped/month & nothing happends.. but oooh my if you shoot someone or something in pvp..
I guess I'll go on another break for a few weeks, again out of principle.
Just like the last break I had when a pirate used the speed cheat to kill me.. costed me 15-20^ped, costed MA a whole lot more (me not playing for 3 weeks).

I really think it's time for MA to ban those who really exploit & warn those who walk the line.
Sadly enough tho, it seems to be that when you make serious money for MA with your exploit, you are allowed a whole lot more.

I dont necessarily disagree but I will state that you have no idea whether the people you report got a temp ban or even a warning. The botters for sure need banned. The double boxers, you can't prove it... so not sure how you would expect ma to do anything about that. When I did game development, this very issue was complicated. You could implement a game shield to prevent trainers and other hacks but that only goes so far. It's hard to ban folks for doing a game mechanic regardless of its nature. You have to fix the problems that exist to prevent said action. Moderating social actions (griefing) is a complicated matter that can only be subjective and you won't get 100% agreement with the punitive or lack of action.

/endofftopic
 
To those of you that are trying to make the case that holding the ship from warp for those five minutes was harassment and that's why I deserved to be banned I say this:

Take a look at supports original comment to me here. This is what I was told by the same person that ban me this time, this is what led me to believe that I was allowed to disrupt a warp if it is for the purpose of delaying them so my backup could help.

Now that I've been banned this time for using the logic that support gave me for disrupting a warp and no clear reasons have been given to explains this I'm left with this, when I do it again...and i will...am i going to get banned again? BTW I asked this specific question to support and they have not replied.

OH and there were times during those five minutes where I was continuously shooting to try and bring their SI down for the crew at the warp gate, not just single shooting the warp drive.
 
Hey i registered for this thread but be active in forums from now on :)
I play the game like 3 months now and haven't been in space yet and i did no PvP.

I like PvP and i played alot of MMOS and played alot of PvP.
Therefore i have some idea what PvP generally means and i know how people play PvP.

I've read this entire thread, it's very interesting.

BUT WHAT THE HELL!!! o_O Never heard of PvP issues like this in any other game, this whole story is absolutely ridiciolous in my opinion.
Xane is surely in the right here, even if it pisses others of and pirates are scum and blahblah.

You do PvP in EU and you have to justify yourself? I mean, in a PvP zone where everyone who goes there knows that there is PvP and that you will be looted? It really sucks to lose your stuff but it's a PvP zone where all agree to go....

Also the word "Harassment"... even if someone does a bit of camping or unmoral things... thats just normal for PvP, is it not? Camping someone who can't go somewhere else and is really stuck and has no other option for hours - that is harassment.
Not a bit waiting at a respawn.
And as i understand, nobody forces you to use space.

I understand the problem that one want to use space and that some people bought stuff like big ships in space but all people knew the PvP thing i think. Also that space seems to be in Alpha stage forever and don'T get updates.

The one to punish here is not the pirate in a PvP zone (except he really uses exploits) but the developer of this whole thing.
Space seems to be absolutely unbalanced and undeveloped... To make it lootable PvP in such a state is just stupid and can only make people unhappy and angry.
Seems to me that the whole PvP system in EU, not just space is totally stupid and useless, it just don't fit to the RCE system.
PvP just needs a huge overhaul, also space.

MA could just disable lootable PvP or even whole PvP until they come up with a new system. Is there a statistic somewhere how many people are happy with PvP or how many even play it like it is? The absolute minority i think so time for an overhaul.

Treat players like mobs, introduce battlegrounds where everyone gets a score at the end, dependent on damage, heal or other stuff and then give em lootboxes or something like that.

PvP should be one of many core mechanics in a modern MMO, even if it is an RCE. Just think about how many more people would play EU if it had a nice PvP system.

I also want to do PvP but just shooting random players for fun without any other reason doesn't fit to an RCE where you just throw your money away at an opponent.
Nobody would do Hunting or mining if you get no loot and just skills. Or would you go kill eomons where you get no loot?

Sorry i know much offtopic and much too long post ,)


OP is definately in the right here and it is a joke that you can make a support case if someone PvPs you in a PvP zone and even have him banned.
Also that Xane has to justify and explain himself for doing PvP in a PVP zone to the support o_O
Never heard of anything like this in my whole 15 years MMOs.

Greetings
Carn
 
To those of you that are trying to make the case that holding the ship from warp for those five minutes was harassment and that's why I deserved to be banned I say this:

Take a look at supports original comment to me here. This is what I was told by the same person that ban me this time, this is what led me to believe that I was allowed to disrupt a warp if it is for the purpose of delaying them so my backup could help.

Now that I've been banned this time for using the logic that support gave me for disrupting a warp and no clear reasons have been given to explains this I'm left with this, when I do it again...and i will...am i going to get banned again? BTW I asked this specific question to support and they have not replied.

OH and there were times during those five minutes where I was continuously shooting to try and bring their SI down for the crew at the warp gate, not just single shooting the warp drive.

I read the first statement as: It's fine to interrupt warp if you get your buddies there to shoot the mothership.
It's not ok to interrupt warp if you are goin to pvp it some place else. (if your buddies do not appear on the scene where you are interrupting warp).
So simple pvp. You bring your scum stealing pirate friends, the mothership brings the mothership and its crew and you can go shoot the crap out of eachother.
If the mothership escapes to safe space.. tough luck.
If you manage to bring it down... Mindark approved theft.

Advanced tactics, like letting your pirate scummy friends some place else to plant a warp mine is not allowed, if you are interrupting warp on the mothership and your scummy pirate friends do not showup on the scene. That action will get you banned.
 
Spawn your explanation of how fights should be would for good or bad drastically change space pvp
Players who fly quads and hide in safe space do not escape the pirates.
The pirates patiently wait for them to come out.
If warpships are to receive this special consideration then it must be offered to all to be fair.
This could lead to interesting result of numerous support cases from players who said they escaped to safe space and then later were attacked and looted.
Players can get more loot while in safe space so it is a new condition not same battle over and over. Can get difficult is it harassment or is it simply pvp players trying to get freshly obtained loot.
 
I read the first statement as: It's fine to interrupt warp if you get your buddies there to shoot the mothership.
It's not ok to interrupt warp if you are goin to pvp it some place else. (if your buddies do not appear on the scene where you are interrupting warp).
So simple pvp. You bring your scum stealing pirate friends, the mothership brings the mothership and its crew and you can go shoot the crap out of eachother.
If the mothership escapes to safe space.. tough luck.
If you manage to bring it down... Mindark approved theft.

Advanced tactics, like letting your pirate scummy friends some place else to plant a warp mine is not allowed, if you are interrupting warp on the mothership and your scummy pirate friends do not showup on the scene. That action will get you banned.

Your splitting hairs, you are breaking up the logic behind the warp disruption just so you can have a valid reason to ban me this time. It's stupid.

"It is fully acceptable to do so if you intended to bring the Mothership down or you are awaiting backup"

That means you are allowed to disrupt a warp if you need to buy time for others to help in the attack. It doesn't implicitly say that your backup has to come to your location or even what your backup is going to do and for good reason. Why would you want to only have specific ways in which you can PVP when the game mechanics allow for creativity in how you can attack?
Let's say your at caly and the ship is warping to ark and you want to stall them at caly for a few minutes so your crew can gather at ark to attack for example.

Why implement a strict game playing style that affects many just so you can justify the banning of one player?
 
Would be interested to know from Mind Ark what they think space pvp is that they brought to game. What did they envision. What was their purpose to bring it in.

The perspective from Carn who has played pvp games for 15 years is interesting. And perhaps Mind Ark needs to take note of it. If the market promotions for Entropia Universe are typically read by already existing gamers what they think is important. Many players I encounter have played other games before finding Entropia Universe.

Perhaps space pvp in Entropia Universe has unique differences making it difficult to compare to other games.
 
The perspective from Carn who has played pvp games for 15 years is interesting.

Carn would perhaps be interested to know that the involved party here is a player that's had their previous account outright deleted for their antics in the past, following a different account lock under circumstances that weren't exactly dissimilar. Personally I view it as dodging a ban, how MA handles it is up to them but apparently their stance on this topic hasn't changed, and neither has the sole target of bans of this nature. He knows what he's doing.

My exact opinion on the person in question here is only mildly relivent, but given the situation you'll have to forgive me for not feeling a great amount of pitty
 
Xane did his time for his crime so unless we want to have separate rules for those who did face justice and those who have not yet had their accounts deleted or locked your feelings Mitsuwa while understandable are not relevant to this thread or to Carn.
Xane is not asking anyone to feel sorry for him.
From perspective of Xane he was following rules as given to him by Mind Ark and had his account locked. In short from perspective of Xane he was locked for doing space pvp to which everyone who enters space agrees to space pvp. This is what Carn is addressing. As a player of pvp games for 15 years one can see where Carn may feel baffled that a player gets banned for doing legal pvp.
From my understanding having read the whole of this thread disrupting warp for 5 minutes while warp mine gets laid down is not harassment it is simply space pvp as set out by rules specifically communicated to Xane by Mind Ark.

People seem to set great stock in "Xane persistently harasses" a specific player or group.
People throw that term around so much and so widely it has lost meaning. There are numerous videos on youtube showing Varyag as a bullying pirate ship that interferes with gameplay and so on ad nauseum and if Mind Ark believed that crap on youtube I would have been perma banned long ago.
Which gets to the crux of what this thread is about and what I have said previously. Are we okay with only keeping our values when it is for our friends.
What are the consequences if our values are only kept when convenient to our interests and agenda.
Do we want Entropia Universe to gain a reputation of "you get on the wrong side of Mind Ark teacher pets you might as well quit this game you dont have chance"
 
Last I had checked, permanent bans didn't come with parole, so no someone that's made a new account to dodge punishment has not served their time.

Also you seem to have failed to consider the perspective i personally hold. My feelings are plenty important because they come from the perspective of someone who has personally disarmed him and his kind of their cheated advantages and forced a level playing field, where he would have it rigged so he could earn fortunes, then gone on to actively contest him in space. I have dealt with his "harassment" first had, as well as his willingness to lie and twist the truth, so I see the deception he's up to here. Whether the ban was deserved on the grounds they were given is up for debate, sure, but a ban he does indeed deserve.

I'm not willing to let his pitty party stand because I know it extends beyond that, and I'm less than amused by it
 
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I'm not willing to let his pitty [pity?] party stand because I know it extends beyond that, and I'm less than amused by it

Well, this is a kind of triangle, with MA passing down judgements (or not) on the things which happen. I am not happy when so many wrong-doings are ignored or not acted on in EU, but neither am I happy if someone who tries to find the 'boundaries' then gets a hit while being (potentially) on the correct side of the border for once.

I accept that bad reputations and past history mean that pity and patience are probably on the low side here, but I would have still liked to see a clear answer from support on this, and apparently (if quotes are accurate) we have not had this clarification.
I will assume for now that if an MS is held up for 5 mins, that a mine is being dropped (at start or end of the warp path), that MS can ask to have this verified if they are not taken out of warp by said mine, and that a ban would come AFTER MA have (hopefully quickly) checked this, and if they see no mine was dropped.

Support may quickly tire of this, just as others too, but from what I have read, their answer wasn't clear, so it will be a case of "Here we go again - sigh!".
 
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