Universal Ammo for Melee, Repair

San · Sep 3, 2016

Publishing my support case 322347 from 2016-05-02 15:20 here for the purpose of gathering momentum.

Hello,

I would like to suggest universal ammo be made usable by melee hunters. They are currently at a disadvantage, since they can not utilise the better conversion rate for their money by buying universal ammo through the webshop. After it was made usable with mining finders, this would be the logical next step.

An elegant way this could be achieved would be by simply dropping it into the repair terminal as offset against repair cost. Excess would be returned, if insufficient the remaining difference would be drawn from the PED balance as usual.

While thinking of melee hunters was the primary source for this idea, I can see no good reason why it shouldn't be possible to use for just any repairable item. Its value cannot leave the system without having to cycle through loot anyway.

A side effect of the excess return would be that amounts of decay could be easily measured to the full precision of 1/100 pec. Since players already achieve that with the help of fruit or sweat (the so-called fruit test), not more information would be given than already available, only in a more convenient way. This would likely be received with praise as well.

Thank you for your kind consideration.
Best regards,
San

Aio · Sep 3, 2016

It's a good thought, but the reason I don't think it will happen:

UA is a PED liability to Mindark (1000 PED UA = $100 liability). But, as we know, this must be "cycled" to retrieve the actual PED on your card, so the liability actually average to 0.9*, or $90.

If we allowed this repair method, the liability of 1000 PED UA could be converted to a liability of 1000 PED on an item. This means, their actual liability stays at $100 not $90.

To us players, it's a technicality (you're not going to sell your +1000 knife for TT) but in accounting terms, it's significantly different.

You need to think of a method for Melee to use UA "on use" (as with probes and regular weapons) rather than pre-loading.

Perhaps a tickbox on your weapon "Use Universal Ammo" which would convert 90% decay into UA cost?

Haruto Rat · Sep 3, 2016

This would effectively allow selling UA to TT by repairing a useless item (think freshly crafted Jester D-1) and then selling it.

Which is why it probably won't happen. :sad_rat:

syntax · Sep 3, 2016

As a primarily melee user I've been wanting this for a long time, but it's not going to happen for the reasons already mentioned.

I think they just need more melee weapons that use UA. Currently when I need to burn UA I switch to an IceRage; but it's only one of maybe 2 or 3 swords that will use UA.

Maybe a good option would be an attachment that diverts the decay to UA usage - similar to how the mindforce implants can offset some of the decay of the chips.

atomicstorm · Sep 3, 2016

Aio said:
It's a good thought, but the reason I don't think it will happen:

UA is a PED liability to Mindark (1000 PED UA = $100 liability). But, as we know, this must be "cycled" to retrieve the actual PED on your card, so the liability actually average to 0.9*, or $90.

If we allowed this repair method, the liability of 1000 PED UA could be converted to a liability of 1000 PED on an item. This means, their actual liability stays at $100 not $90.

To us players, it's a technicality (you're not going to sell your +1000 knife for TT) but in accounting terms, it's significantly different.

You need to think of a method for Melee to use UA "on use" (as with probes and regular weapons) rather than pre-loading.

Perhaps a tickbox on your weapon "Use Universal Ammo" which would convert 90% decay into UA cost?

All this is based on a false premise of once again.. 90%. Doesn't exist.

And while I wish this would happen also, you could just repair a crap melee weapon and tt it and that's not what mindark was after with UA.

It would be better if melee users would stop selling their shrapnel so cheap.

Venture Bros · Sep 3, 2016

syntax said:
Maybe a good option would be an attachment that diverts the decay to UA usage - similar to how the mindforce implants can offset some of the decay of the chips.

A free attachment that allows this would work. Make it attach seperately from amps and the problem is solved. You can repair the attachement with uni ammo, and only the attachment, the attachment is not ttable. You can use it on any UL weapon and it will decay instead. This prevents the UA from being TTable as well as solves the issue with Melee and any other class.

Aio · Sep 3, 2016

atomicstorm said:
All this is based on a false premise of once again.. 90%. Doesn't exist.

And while I wish this would happen also, you could just repair a crap melee weapon and tt it and that's not what mindark was after with UA.

It would be better if melee users would stop selling their shrapnel so cheap.

Make the number 99, 99.999999, 95, 1, 0.00001, it really doesn't matter. The premise is exactly the fucking same.

MA do not and will not lose money, on average, by paying out more than they receive. Therefore, the average loss rate on used peds has a figure between 0 and 100%, pick whatever number pleases you.

The concept is still identical. MA introduced UA to allow a variety of functions (prizes, shrapnel, fee-free deposits) whilst reducing liability.

golddude · Sep 3, 2016

solution:

Let the sword use the UA just like a gun... I mean each hit would just use the ammo up as if it were repaired. You guys are literally over thinking this.

Aio · Sep 3, 2016

golddude said:
solution:

Let the sword use the UA just like a gun... I mean each hit would just use the ammo up as if it were repaired. You guys are literally over thinking this.

It has to at least retain some semblance of a game.

If it just turns into ped in > ped out, then they may aswell scrap the CE2 interface and just run a simple mobile app.

Gamble $1000? Yes/No - guaranteed 90% return!

atomicstorm · Sep 3, 2016

Aio said:
It has to at least retain some semblance of a game.

If it just turns into ped in > ped out, then they may aswell scrap the CE2 interface and just run a simple mobile app.

Gamble $1000? Yes/No - guaranteed 90% return!

Make an attachment that swaps sword decay with ammo. *shrug* not that big of a deal if people stop selling shrapnel low.

[Insert comment about 90% false premise] *runs and hides*

Haruto Rat · Sep 3, 2016

atomicstorm said:
Make an attachment that swaps sword decay with ammo. *shrug* not that big of a deal if people stop selling shrapnel low.

Or a craftable amp that can take UA/shrap instead of residue. (Might be easier to implement)

Just brainstorming now. Got no answer yet to "what does MA get from this?", however.

Killahbee · Sep 3, 2016

I give you 2 options
#1. Drastically change the tt on melee and make them ammo>decay just like weapons
#2. Every melee weapon to symbolic 1 ped tt, no decay and use ammo just like weapons :laugh:

we want more mu right? :laugh:

atomicstorm · Sep 3, 2016

Haruto Rat said:
Or a craftable amp that can take UA/shrap instead of residue. (Might be easier to implement)

Just brainstorming now. Got no answer yet to "what does MA get from this?", however.

Nah... too gambly.

Bones · Sep 3, 2016

I like the idea someone had of an attachment that would use the UA and I think the same should apply to guns and mining finders.

Mega · Sep 3, 2016

Killahbee said:
I give you 2 options
#1. Drastically change the tt on melee and make them ammo>decay just like weapons
#2. Every melee weapon to symbolic 1 ped tt, no decay and use ammo just like weapons

we want more mu right?

#3. Stop using melee.

golddude · Sep 4, 2016

Bones said:
I like the idea someone had of an attachment that would use the UA and I think the same should apply to guns and mining finders.

Cant be traded until used up haha

schneiw · Sep 4, 2016

I agree, I logged a very similar support case a few months ago. Only way to get it going is if more people log similar requests.

And always add how MA will benefit, else no incentive for them: My angle was that as a melee user, I have no incentive to buy Strongboxes since I don't use ammo, hence if they implement such a mechanism, more melee user could see benefit from buying Stongboxes.

Money talks.

San · Sep 4, 2016

Haruto Rat said:
This would effectively allow selling UA to TT by repairing a useless item (think freshly crafted Jester D-1) and then selling it.

Which is why it probably won't happen. :sad_rat:

Dang, didn't think of that. But crafting these causes losses. As long as losses are greater than the 1% gain on the repaired amount, it shouldn't drain the system. From a 95% TT return on a qr-maxed bp with maxed skills, only a portion is turned into the actual item, the rest is residue or returns from partial successes or the lucky extra. The Jester is a non-SIB bp btw, so it takes a lvl 100 crafter anyway to max out. Are there any SIB-bps for unlimited items?

Okay, if there is a suitable bp or you stuff skill implants up to the gills and you want to maximize the amount to repair, you craft for quantity over condition, i.e. hope to get many items with a low TT value. This is the opposite of what the gamblers do. On the difference to max TT you would gain 1%. I can't see this working out to be TT-profitable, maybe someone who is actually doing it likes to show numbers.

If it can't be profitable, the only reason to do it is to skill up for just a wee bit cheaper. Can this be a problem big enough to stop the show? Actually you could even say, this way crafters too can get their fair share of the advantage hunters and miners got through the introduction of universal ammo. And if they actually utilize that, there will be more demand for the materials again.

Haruto Rat · Sep 4, 2016

San said:
The Jester is a non-SIB bp btw, so it takes a lvl 100 crafter anyway to max out. Are there any SIB-bps for unlimited items?

Perpendicular to the thread at hand, but it takes lvl 10 laser weapons engineer to max a Jester bp with 1.0 qr; with 100.0 qr it's maxed well before lvl 5 (I suspect 2.5 but it's too late for me to test

).

As for SIB blueprints for unlimited items... Arkadian keys. All non-Calypso clothing. All non-Calypso furniture. Some Arkadian attachments (headsh*ts and bulls***s). RT and Cyrene armor. Of course, not all of those are tt food, but there are many that are.

While it's a sure loss to craft Jesters, they're still being crafted, mostly with the purpose of blueprint discovery.

San · Oct 9, 2016

Bump.

After all, I don't think the 1% advantage is enough to allow for fleecing the system through crafting useless items. The losses still outweigh the gains. If anything, it being just a wee bit cheaper extends the advantage to crafting and may encourage some to do more, which in turn increases the demand for resources. It may even undo part of the damage EP crafting has caused.

Isaac · Nov 10, 2016

Why not add CDF versions to the daily token and/or combat token trader respectively. There are already 1 ped blades that come as mm, elm etc. versions.

So one just switches to the limited (and hopefully tradeable) cdf version once a certain amount of uni ammo is stockpiled.

San · Nov 12, 2016

I find all the attachment stuff too complicated, and using ammo for all melee counterintuitive and just contrived. Better if there was a solution which doesn't require changing existing items anyway.

Just let us use it as payment against repairs, problem solved and equality restored. Perfectly even, in that it extends the 1% advantage to gun repairs, too, and to some crafting as found above.

In the ongoing trend of making the game cheaper to play, which is quite welcome, this solution could be inserted instead of something else with more buffs or whatever they have planned and thus should not diminish MA's side of the business beyond what was already taken into account.

Me Really Never · Nov 12, 2016

San said:
I find all the attachment stuff too complicated, and using ammo for all melee counterintuitive and just contrived. Better if there was a solution which doesn't require changing existing items anyway.

Just let us use it as payment against repairs, problem solved and equality restored. Perfectly even, in that it extends the 1% advantage to gun repairs, too, and to some crafting as found above.

In the ongoing trend of making the game cheaper to play, which is quite welcome, this solution could be inserted instead of something else with more buffs or whatever they have planned and thus should not diminish MA's side of the business beyond what was already taken into account.

its funny that people allways say "making the game cheaper to play"... when in fact it gets more and more expensive. in the early days once in a while u got lucky and hit something big that boosted ur bankroll again. and thatd happen again. now you need every single fucking bit of equipment to increase your eco and dps just to be able to get that maybe 0,5% advantage over 100% tt return to make a few hundred peds after 100k peds cycled. now your bankroll needs to be at least 10 times of what it had to be in the early days. yes, the good items overall get cheaper. and for the high end super hunter it may be cheaper now than it was 10 years ago. but for the average normal hunter the game gets more and more expensive as you need to keep up with all that new introduced "cheap" equip that everyone can get easily.

San · Nov 12, 2016

Me Really Never said:
its funny that people allways say "making the game cheaper to play"... when in fact it gets more and more expensive. ...

You're right, only running cost is lowered, while the equipment you need to achieve that comes at a price. This system favours those that grind a lot and punishes the casual player. Makes business sense, does it not

The suggestion doesn't aim to change that, only to address an inequality within existing parameters.

shoti · Nov 12, 2016

golddude said:
solution:

Let the sword use the UA just like a gun... I mean each hit would just use the ammo up as if it were repaired. You guys are literally over thinking this.

Thats best idea mentioned here so far.

Ofcourse whole idea of avatar bind items, Non tradeable items and items without value is responsible for at least part of problems EU economy is facing now, so whole UA concept is curing symptoms not the desease.

San · Nov 12, 2016

What is the difference between swords using ammo and ammo being accepted as payment for repair? Changing the character of melee totally will just cause screaming again, and unnecessarily so. Change it only at the POS/cashier.

Me Really Never · Nov 12, 2016

San said:
What is the difference between swords using ammo and ammo being accepted as payment for repair? Changing the character of melee totally will just cause screaming again, and unnecessarily so. Change it only at the POS/cashier.

well the difference is that you could use the UA to repair useless junk like 100 jesters, and tt it. so u wouldnt need to cycle the UA anymore.

San · Nov 12, 2016

Me Really Never said:
well the difference is that you could use the UA to repair useless junk like 100 jesters, and tt it. so u wouldnt need to cycle the UA anymore.

This was discussed just above and we're beginning to spin in circles. You'll take greater loss from crafting than what can be gained this way. Even if you're all maxed with a nominal 95% return shown, only part of these will be the actual items, the rest residue and whatever. How much exactly would be good to show, if someone had a log. I doubt it would render the idea invalid. Look, the 101% advantage is currently only offered to ranged hunters and miners. If it required a tiny adjustment of loot returns under the hood, then we didn't notice it (at least not with this reason) and we wouldn't notice if it had to be expanded to the remaining fields. More people motivated to buy stuff from the webshop should have the greater advantage.

Edit: Wait, forgot one thing. You only get the conversion advantage when you make UA from shrapnel, which you can only get through loot first. Buying UA from webshop gives you a better conversion rate through the banks and not through the game.

Haruto Rat · Dec 5, 2016

I've been thinking about this, and it seems that a melee amp with exceptional durability and ammo use would be enough, given that:

a well-suited amp can cover up to 1/3 of the total cost,
barring big multipliers, shrapnel typically constitutes about 30% of total loot.

So, if we take for example a Melee Trauma Amplifier IV that has 4.444 PEC decay, and convert into an Adapted Melee Trauma Amplifier IV that has 0.044 PEC decay and consumes 440 ammo (=the same dpp), the amount of ammo consumed in long run would be pretty close to the amount of shrap looted.

On top of that, if you took UA equivalent to total uses of your weapon, you'd have a counter.

Could even have an upgrade mission for this.

Evey · Dec 5, 2016

schneiw said:
I agree, I logged a very similar support case a few months ago. Only way to get it going is if more people log similar requests.
[...]

If people could please stop suggesting the community to spam the support with random junk stuff, that would be great... worse idea ever. There are issues that don't get to be solved because things like tis, because someone thinks momentum to a silly idea could make it happen or something....

Next you want 90 range for knifes because why not, you can throw them, right? And if you can throw them, why not a scope and 2 sights on it.

- 100.8% is not 'so cheap' shrapnel;
- MA won't change the stats of items;

A reasonable thing to do for melee would be adding a few more melee options if 1ped TT, rest is too SF.

Universal Ammo for Melee, Repair

Elite

Elite

Elite

Guardian

Slayer

Elite

Elite

Elite

Elite

Slayer

Elite

Marauder

Slayer

Elite

Chaotic Good

Elite

Provider

Elite

Elite

Elite

Guardian

Elite

Stalker

Elite

Deactivated Account

Elite

Stalker

Elite

Elite

Elite