Small Claims Court

To continue from here (post #414) and with the issue of that thread as example:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ace-PVP-War!&p=3515055&viewfull=1#post3515055

Support is overburdened with judging every issue that players have with each other's chosen behaviour. Be a complaint justified or not, it takes a lot out of their time and simply isn't the intended occupation for someone employed to give support with mainly technical issues.

I think they should start charging for occupying support with issues of (alleged) human failure. Not like the 1000 ped punitive charge for recovering an accidentally tt'ed item, that's excessive and no reflection of the actual effort involved. But something realistic, say covering the cost for 15-20 minutes of employee time.

The idea is a small claims court like in the real world, just with the restriction that recoverable damages do not exceed the court fee, otherwise we'd open a can of worms with claims spiraling out of control. The offender found guilty could be offered a choice, either cover the cost which will then be returned to the complainant(s), or do time shut out of the game. (There is more to this point which I can't oversee yet, it may be the most difficult part to get right if the idea is followed.)

If filing a complaint against a fellow human being (however foul) carries a price, it will not be done lightly by the mass of small players who watch their every pec, but there should be a mechanism of pooling to enable everybody to combat corrosive behavioural patterns which affect many. It will stop the recurring complaints against pirates who just do what the game offers them, but cases like this one where things aren't obvious from the start will have proper funding for a proper investigation.

Therefore, if a player or a group tries to abuse this court to someone's disadvantage, they should be aware that the likelihood is very high that it will backfire. This is a simulated world with total supervision, so framing someone should be impossible unless the judges are sloppy, which the cost coverage aims to prevent. On the other hand it should suffice to really do justice by finding the truth and not cause poor employees to roll their eyes, moan "here we go again" and pull the trigger.

I'm for any system that is objective and can take the time to do a proper investigation. Good idea!

There IS a Terms of Use agreement and you agree to it every time you log in. Support should be there to enforce that damn thing and/or create new modifications to it as needed. If they don't have enough damn people in the Support Department to do that type of thing as it is now, instead of applying more stupid fees to the player base, the folks up top (Timkrans, etc.) should take a small 1-5% pay cut for a year to afford another 30-50% increase in the amount of employees they can hire in the support department.... make it 3-7% if you want more 'competent' support people than the 1-5% will get you...

The problem i see, is the american style claim culture in RL is ruining society and creating a system thats scared of been sued. In game we might see
Get shot by a pirate, sue him.
MS fail to get you there safely, Claim for your travel.
Your haircut not as good as you hoped? no worries.
Guy looted a 1k ESI in a shared event? get your share.
Someone not giving you what you want? Threaten to sue them

why i understand it for some cases, it could open up bitchin' over trival stuff. Plus the people with better writing skills will be more successful as they can get there point across

As I've said before support is an overhead that needs to be paid.

Let's say MA pays them $20K a year full time, that's 200000 (two hundred thousand) ped "WE" need to contribute in deposits just to pay that.

I'm not keen on charges though, just be sensible. Keep petty things out of support.

Rick

Let's see MA start to provide some sort of reasonable support service first.
I haven't been able to reliably login for 2 or 3 weeks now and I've had exactly one response on my support call. Based on my average monthly revenue, that''s cost me 1 to 1.5k ped so far, since I can't run my crafting business if I am not logged in.

And I should pay (or risk having to pay) if they decide it's my fault?

Game companies need to support their customers. They minimise costs but increasing the quality of their product and introducing efficiencies in their support process.

MA do very little to satisfy disputes between players. People grief with only occasional penalties. People scam with no penalty. So what would we be paying for?

Assuming we did pay.
1 Charging peds does little to provide for support costs as only deposits pay wages.
2. It favours the rich depositors.

And really, fuck the pirates and the ships they rode in on. If you choose to be a parasitic thieving arsehole, then live with the consequences. That's called karma.

Really just allow players to post names on forums.

Problem solved. reputation is everything here in EU. Knowing your name could be trashed for shoddy behavior is deterrent enough.

I'm also getting sick of the lootable pvp complaints. it's part of the game. if you don't like it then 1) don't go to space.. and 2) don't go into lootable pvp.

Or stop being cheap and pay the 7-10 ped for scheduled warps.

KijkkiJikki said:

Let's see MA start to provide some sort of reasonable support service first.
I haven't been able to reliably login for 2 or 3 weeks now and I've had exactly one response on my support call. Based on my average monthly revenue, that''s cost me 1 to 1.5k ped so far, since I can't run my crafting business if I am not logged in.

And I should pay (or risk having to pay) if they decide it's my fault?

Click to expand...

No, this is of course not what I meant. I only suggested to charge for filing complaints against other players, minus reporting exploitation of technical flaws and scammers (forgot to name the latter above). Petty requests for sanctions against fellow players, occupying support with drama and the likes should get discouraged. If there is a sincere complaint against a player or a group, i.e. none of the parties involved is MindArk or a planet partner themselves, it should be taken care of by 'authorities' since investigation usually requires access to information which only MA has, but it should not bei their or a PP's burden to pay the time for investigation, arbitration or passing judgment. These monies should come out of the community as the issue lies solely within the community.

And some responders hopped from the thread title straight to commenting. Maybe my headline was a little misleading as I used the term rather loosely, but I did describe that it's NOT about getting to sue for any damages beyond the court fee (if anything at all, this is open for discussion). We absolutely don't want to introduce this culture of fear here. The latest example case of pirate vs. mothership owner gives a prime example for what I think this would be useful for. Please re-read

San said:

These monies should come out of the community as the issue lies solely within the community.

Click to expand...

There's where I disagree wholeheartedly with you. Mindark and the Planet Partners created the environment avatars exist in. If they cannot control the way they programmed their environment enough to keep one avatar from exploiting another in some way/shape/form they need to reprogram some element of that environment to fix the problems... they won't know of the problems if they aren't directly involved in the complaints that pinpoint where the bugs/flaws/exploits are. The created the bugs and should be held accountable for fixing em.

Mindark has a long history of being 'more fair' to some avatars than others. That element does need to change, I agree though. If a court helps with that type of thing, than go for it, but it should not be something that the community as a whole is paying for... since we already pay so many damn fees as it is.

While it's free, there will be people who make LOTS of support cases. Some of them even take pride in that.

I don't think there's any quick and easy solution. For starters, maybe there should be a limit to the number of support cases open simultaneously - does anyone have more than three existential issues at a time, after all?

i think i have 6 open support cases... oldest is over a year now and the rest from the following 6 months.

Rocket192 said:

I'm also getting sick of the lootable pvp complaints. it's part of the game. if you don't like it then 1) don't go to space.. and 2) don't go into lootable pvp.

Or stop being cheap and pay the 7-10 ped for scheduled warps.

Click to expand...

Not really fussed as to what you are sick of. Get over it.

Scamming and deceitful trading practices is part of the game. If you don't like it, don't trade. Right?

I haven't been looted in space for some years now as I know how to manage the risk. But I can still recognise shitty behaviour when I see it. I'm not going to lose any sleep over their problems.

San said:

To continue from here (post #414) and with the issue of that thread as example:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ace-PVP-War!&p=3515055&viewfull=1#post3515055

Support is overburdened with judging every issue that players have with each other's chosen behaviour. Be a complaint justified or not, it takes a lot out of their time and simply isn't the intended occupation for someone employed to give support with mainly technical issues.

I think they should start charging for occupying support with issues of (alleged) human failure. Not like the 1000 ped punitive charge for recovering an accidentally tt'ed item, that's excessive and no reflection of the actual effort involved. But something realistic, say covering the cost for 15-20 minutes of employee time.

The idea is a small claims court like in the real world, just with the restriction that recoverable damages do not exceed the court fee, otherwise we'd open a can of worms with claims spiraling out of control. The offender found guilty could be offered a choice, either cover the cost which will then be returned to the complainant(s), or do time shut out of the game. (There is more to this point which I can't oversee yet, it may be the most difficult part to get right if the idea is followed.)

If filing a complaint against a fellow human being (however foul) carries a price, it will not be done lightly by the mass of small players who watch their every pec, but there should be a mechanism of pooling to enable everybody to combat corrosive behavioural patterns which affect many. It will stop the recurring complaints against pirates who just do what the game offers them, but cases like this one where things aren't obvious from the start will have proper funding for a proper investigation.

Therefore, if a player or a group tries to abuse this court to someone's disadvantage, they should be aware that the likelihood is very high that it will backfire. This is a simulated world with total supervision, so framing someone should be impossible unless the judges are sloppy, which the cost coverage aims to prevent. On the other hand it should suffice to really do justice by finding the truth and not cause poor employees to roll their eyes, moan "here we go again" and pull the trigger.

Click to expand...

Would never work as MA would have to decide what the rules are before they could enforce them. Of course, if they did state what the rules are, the need for this also goes away.

Bump and clarification for the reading impaired. We DO HAVE rules.

It is NOT suggested to charge for support doing the job they are supposed to do, which is helping with mainly technical issues.

It is suggested to charge for employing them to resolve matters solely between players. It wouldn't be needed if everyone had a conscience, but alas such is not in human nature but only in education which yields results of very different quality.

The rules look good on paper, but can be burdensome to judge and enforce. It can't be done without someone who has access to all the evidence, but it shouldn't be expected from MA (and thus the whole customer base who has to foot the bill) to fill in for free where education was unsuccessful.

In the nature of things it's the onus of the plaintiff to cough up the initial layout, but there should be the possibility at least to recover it once found innocent and the other one guilty. Shared responsibility is also a possible outcome, of course. It probably is necessary to require consent also from the accused to enter arbitration and submit to the court's rule if some form of compensation payment is to stand at the end of it, but the alternative has to be remaining shut out from the game then if clear evidence is found. If they agree to cover the damage done and learn from it, they are welcome back.

The same applies to wrongful accusation, of course. Mistakes do happen out of passion or carelessness, but willful abuse of a judicial system is about the worst that can happen in a community and the only just reaction to it is termination of contract. Once this is understood and the authority trusted(*), I believe the mechanism will be used only with great care and these endless fruitless arguments can be relegated to the sandbox where they belong.

(*) I foresee acerbic comments to this 'trusted authority' thing and I can relate to them. But well if you don't at all, why are you still here spending your money to play their game. There are hundreds of alternatives.

A support fee is much like the legal system in North America.
It's only for those with money to burn.
And I've heard in the past some people saying thats what makes it a corrupt 2 tiered system.

But I digress; The number of MA support cases shouldn't be a problem if it's say legitimate bug reports etc.

However within the legal courts there's a (mostly unknown) law called Vexatious Litigious/Litigant.
Basically it means the person has cried wolf too many times in the past and is now considered a serious trouble maker hellbent on wasting court's time over nothing and is to be ignored. Any new legal filings by that person is more often then not tossed into the trash without a second thought. So if MA want's to start a Vexus counter on all of us, so MA knows who to ignore. Then by all means lets follow the legal community's example in that respect.

And again by all means please charge those people any fees to file any new support cases.

Yes, abusing the system should fall back on you. Badly.

The one argument I disagree with is that it's only for those with money to burn to get access to justice. This is not the real world, this is a simulation with a reduced/simplified rule set. Nobody in here exists without burning money to keep it up in the first place. The suggestion is aimed at reducing waste, not the opposite.

I agree it sounds a bit harsh at first sight and can be difficult to accept for some, e.g. in the latest case of kill steal harassment. If it costs to file a charge, more often than not the abuser might get away with it. I don't like this one bit more than anyone else. Then in the case of the incessant botters on Cyrene, they were reported multiple times, but nothing is done about it. The hell knows why, there isn't even an answer that says they found no evidence and you've got it all wrong or whatever. If they were paid to handle the case, they would be obliged by contract to report their findings at least. (Botting may be a borderline issue which actually falls in the technical category, but opinions on this might differ.)

But what to do? The solution is getting organized. Such behaviour, if it occurs not once but as a pattern, usually affects many and that's why part of the suggestion is a facility to make pooling together fairly easy. If you haven't a ped or two, you don't go hunt Caperons anyway. High-markup loot attracts scavengers and all sorts of dishonest characters, and we want a tool to get rid of them. Consider it like paying for an attachment to improve your results.

If a support fee was, say, 100 ped to cover 10 minutes of their dedication, then it shouldn't be out of reach for either someone with a serious in-game business or a large enough group of players affected by such corrosive behaviour. It translates to $60/hr which should be cost-covering even in a high-wage country. Said above I don't want an arbitrary, punitive charge like the 1k for recovering an accidentally tt'ed item.

Isolated incidents on the other hand are not meant to be a frequent occupation of support time, and this mechanism would work against that. You may be fuming mad and find yourself wronged in certain situations, but if you don't find community support then it is more than likely that your emotions got the better of you and you should find a different punching ball than MA's support staff.

Having people suing each other in game is a bad idea, it would just create unnecessary stress.

If it is more that you have to pay a fee in order to report someone, I don't see what honest players have to gain there.

I agree that support could be over burdened with player disputes, but rather than encouraging the blame culture into one of the few places where one can find peace from it, why not involve the community.

I'd argue that the people best placed to judge the wrong doings of others are the players who live and breathe it. If it's a simple broke the rules case, then MA can handle it. If it's something more complicated, they could connect with the community whilst saving money. Win win for them.

A community arbitration system. A select panel of players renowned for their experience and knowledge of certain aspects of the game can take a more in depth look at the situation and report their unbiased recommendations to MA.

No one has to pay, community feels involved, ma connects with the player base, real thought out outcomes achieved.

By the way... that #arbitration channel seems to be an interesting idea. (I haven't looked into who started it though)

Just that enthusiasm is not covered by the law of conservation of energy.

Alainax said:

A community arbitration system.

Click to expand...

I thought of this, too. I don't think this would reduce the chances of community members suing each other, rather if they had to pay the damage it causes.

But you're right, any way for the community to handle differences by themselves is preferable. You just sometimes need evidence the community doesn't have if it's one word against another.

Maybe a mix would be an idea: Support does not get involved before the community doesn't at least make an attempt to resolve a dispute. Only when such a panel decides that hard evidence is needed to move forward, then support is asked. And then their effort has to be funded, how exactly again the community decides.

The #arbitration channel would likely leave those who type slowly or for whom english is not a first language at a significant disadvantage. And we've seen what happens when non-english is typed in generic chats...

A panel of peers fluent in the same first language and experienced in the same niche portions of the game as the accused is a must. Otherwise it's just a de-mob-racy that'd leave some players (for example who chose pirating like Xane, etc) without fair trial.


Hmm maybe it's a bit crazy to defend the pirates just to have fair unbiased support/trial in this topic?

Wait...
This is not the topic your looking for! [waves hand]

I can just see conversations happening like below...


All kidding aside, there will always be those looking for an angle. Any Council put together will need to be able to adapt to these new scenarios and have the authority to enforce the rules. I just don't see MA giving that power to any player-based group.

Sionkiewicz said:

All kidding aside, there will always be those looking for an angle. Any Council put together will need to be able to adapt to these new scenarios and have the authority to enforce the rules. I just don't see MA giving that power to any player-based group.

Click to expand...

Bah, just shoot the VR president a message and he'll set up a council.

Sionkiewicz said:

All kidding aside, there will always be those looking for an angle

Click to expand...

The question, is it looking for the angle or just great at Positional Geometry?