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Speed exploit or Positional geometry?

San said:
Venturing a guess where this is coming from, it might be an attempt at compensation for delays caused by necessary client-server communication upon certain user actions which would disturb the experience as compared to real-world physics, where no such delay occurs. The amount of compensation needed depends on too many factors like network lag and so on which can change every second, therefore can only be determined heuristically. In the end they arrived at overcompensation to be on the safe side it seems, hence the resulting leap forward.

If this is so, I would suggest to ditch the whole circuit. The programmer who made it sure is proud of it, but there is no help since it introduced exploitability. So let there be a slight delay when the map is opened or a few other things, for which there is no legitimate reason to do them several times a second anyway. A simple patch with a cooldown timer for switching the map in space was already suggested, but if the previous is true, it would be a patch for a patch just to cancel each other out. Tossing it would make everybody's life easier.
Click to expand...

Again with the map thing...you haven't tried it...it doesn't work. Prove me wrong.
 
San said:
Venturing a guess where this is coming from, it might be an attempt at compensation for delays caused by necessary client-server communication upon certain user actions which would disturb the experience as compared to real-world physics, where no such delay occurs. The amount of compensation needed depends on too many factors like network lag and so on which can change every second, therefore can only be determined heuristically. In the end they arrived at overcompensation to be on the safe side it seems, hence the resulting leap forward.

If this is so, I would suggest to ditch the whole circuit. The programmer who made it sure is proud of it, but there is no help since it introduced exploitability. So let there be a slight delay when the map is opened or a few other things, for which there is no legitimate reason to do them several times a second anyway. A simple patch with a cooldown timer for switching the map in space was already suggested, but if the previous is true, it would be a patch for a patch just to cancel each other out. Tossing it would make everybody's life easier.
Click to expand...

Your guess sounds pretty reasonable to me.

But tossing it out would suck imo.
Because I use it to get unstuck from terrain, give it a try when stuck at Cyrene's Hub sometime.
So I hope they just disable the lurch in space.
 
the only solution is just to increase the gravity field a thousand fold in space... make it so that all vehicles become 'ground vehicles' that sit on the bottom grid of the plane.
 
Xane said:
Again with the map thing...you haven't tried it...it doesn't work. Prove me wrong.
Click to expand...

I did and it worked, dragged some pirate all the way to Hermes before logging out :p I have no proof and can't be bothered. The only one this is relevant to is MindArk and they have all the data.
 
Max Hec said:
Your guess sounds pretty reasonable to me.

But tossing it out would suck imo.
Because I use it to get unstuck from terrain, give it a try when stuck at Cyrene's Hub sometime.
So I hope they just disable the lurch in space.
Click to expand...

Hm, I sometimes get stuck in Aakas when I run into a pillar at the bottlenecks in the statue hall. Didn't occur to me to try that with the map, thanks for the hint. But this is again a (here probably unintended) patch for something which shouldn't happen and actually calls for a proper fix.
 
Xane said:
Again with the map thing...you haven't tried it...it doesn't work. Prove me wrong.
Click to expand...

San said:
I did and it worked, dragged some pirate all the way to Hermes before logging out :p I have no proof and can't be bothered. The only one this is relevant to is MindArk and they have all the data.
Click to expand...

Chances (or maybe it was micjack, can't remember, you're all the same to me!! :laugh:) chased me for a good 2-3 minutes from Caly station about a month ago, I was spamming M like a mofo the whole time. Never got a shot on me.

Pretty sure there was no chance of intercept since he was directly behind me and far out of range (edge of radar).

It's not exactly proof, but it sort of makes you wonder. Why would a pirate chase you for that long unless in his mind, he thought there was a chance he could move faster than you in a straight line?

Though in both Chances' and Xane's defense they don't use the map glitch on their twitch stream :cool:
 
ZPF said:
Chances (or maybe it was micjack, can't remember, you're all the same to me!! :laugh:) chased me for a good 2-3 minutes from Caly station about a month ago, I was spamming M like a mofo the whole time. Never got a shot on me.

Pretty sure there was no chance of intercept since he was directly behind me and far out of range (edge of radar).

It's not exactly proof, but it sort of makes you wonder. Why would a pirate chase you for that long unless in his mind, he thought there was a chance he could move faster than you in a straight line?

Though in both Chances' and Xane's defense they don't use the map glitch on their twitch stream :cool:
Click to expand...

Normally, they do this to catch you at a server line and send you all back.
 
People saying "10 degrees angle produces no meaningful gain" might want to try numbers in this example:
trigo.jpg


(I simplified a bit and had them travel at a ~5 deg angle to the bisector (tan(5 deg) ~= 0.0875 = 35/400) but unless you carry a sextant to the space your error of measurement is bigger than that anyway :))

edit: "gain/100" is actually gain per unit traveled, so ~8.97 per 100.
 
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San said:
Hm, I sometimes get stuck in Aakas when I run into a pillar at the bottlenecks in the statue hall. Didn't occur to me to try that with the map, thanks for the hint. But this is again a (here probably unintended) patch for something which shouldn't happen and actually calls for a proper fix.
Click to expand...

Yes getting the terrain traps fixed would be a far better solution, just can't see MA doing it.
Plus think of all the people in CRT... who would they rescue then?!. :eyecrazy:

The best/fastest trick I use to escape terrain traps:
Alternate tapping "M" & #5_Keypad while moving forward.
And here's an old post with 5 other ways. (first 2 ways everyone knows already)
http://forum.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!s.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1197&KW=&title=avatar-stuck-unable-to-move-how-you-can-escape

PS. sorry Kane for the slight thread hijack, hope it comes in handy planet-side for everyone. ;)

Okay back to OP Speed and space... and go! :D


ZPF said:
PARSED
Though in both Chances' and Xane's defense they don't use the map glitch on their twitch stream :cool:
Click to expand...
Links? (if allowed on PCF?)
 
mastermesh said:
the only solution is just to increase the gravity field a thousand fold in space... make it so that all vehicles become 'ground vehicles' that sit on the bottom grid of the plane.
Click to expand...

Or just change the gravitational constant of the Universe..
 
Hard for me to believe it's possible to use this tactic very often and cath up, sometimes yes, with a bit of luck. I mean, how would the chaser be able to correcly read the direction/angle of the ship they are chasing? And also, the one trying to get away problably constantly try to change their direction a bit to make it harder. It's also not "2D" it's 3D, even harder to match. So hard for me to think it will be possible very often it they both have the same speed.
 
Xane said:
kWzrdwU.jpg


The purple box is the starting positions for both planes. The measured distance between them is 113.137. The green box is the final position of the planes and the measured distance between them is 106.607 showing a gain of 6.53 units of measure for the chasing plane. This is using Pythagorean theorem as True Juan suggested i do.

Both planes were moved forward one plane length a total number of six times.
Click to expand...

This diagram also illustrates another key point to be taken into consideration (which is the question I thought I was answering before :D)

You can see in this diagram that while the linear distance between the two ships decreases, the distance between the ships along the axis of the red ship's travel increases.

So in this example the blue ship starts 80m* behind on the axis of travel, and finishes 86m behind on the same axis, despite being 6.5m closer in linear distance.

So while the blue ship can make up some ground by flying at a different angle, he can never get closer than 80m to the red ship. The distance along the axis of travel can only increase, or stay the same, and the linear distance can only ever be greater than or equal to the distance along the axis. Having reached the second point in this diagram, the blue ship can now never get closer than 86m to the red ship.

This means that if the initial distance between the ships along the axis of travel is greater than weapon range, it is impossible for the blue ship to get within shooting range of the red ship.

This of course assumes that a) the red ship does not change course, and b) the ships are travelling at the same average speed.

There will be some formula for determining the theoretical minimum possible distance, given the initial vectors, but I can't immediately think of what it would be. Something to do with differentiating the trigonometric functions, I think.

*Using m as the unit just for simplicity.
 
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Dont remember needing any of this to understand that angular intercept would work. But i am enjoying seeing you all discovering something so obvious.

It's like watching little bugs working out how to get to the sugar - quite entertaining - thank you - you may carry on :)
 
DaisyColdFinger said:
Dont remember needing any of this to understand that angular intercept would work. But i am enjoying seeing you all discovering something so obvious.

It's like watching little bugs working out how to get to the sugar when - quite entertaining - thank you - you may carry on :)
Click to expand...

Loosk nice on paper and in theory, but in pratical in 3D space and constant changing direction and you only have your eyes to try do judge the correct angle of intercept? I don't buy it.
 
billairboy said:
... the correct angle of intercept..
Click to expand...

It's not a question of 'the correct', it's about 'a successful' angle.

I suspect that with so many people flying 'flat', that pirates like to come in from higher or lower, aiming at a point quite a bit ahead of the target. As JBK has pointed out, lots of people will be tempted to fly to an SS waypoint, or the pixels which make up their destination planet. They think that flying straight is the only consideration they need to apparently be safe - it is not, as explained several times here.
 
jetsina said:
It's not a question of 'the correct', it's about 'a successful' angle.

I suspect that with so many people flying 'flat', that pirates like to come in from higher or lower, aiming at a point quite a bit ahead of the target. As JBK has pointed out, lots of people will be tempted to fly to an SS waypoint, or the pixels which make up their destination planet. They think that flying straight is the only consideration they need to apparently be safe - it is not, as explained several times here.
Click to expand...

for the fun of it and to prove it i was flying to a pretty random point in the direction of somewhere around cyrene though no waypoint or anything marked and not directly horizontal as well
 
Oleg said:
This diagram also illustrates another key point to be taken into consideration (which is the question I thought I was answering before :D)

You can see in this diagram that while the linear distance between the two ships decreases, the distance between the ships along the axis of the red ship's travel increases.

So in this example the blue ship starts 80m* behind on the axis of travel, and finishes 86m behind on the same axis, despite being 6.5m closer in linear distance.

So while the blue ship can make up some ground by flying at a different angle, he can never get closer than 80m to the red ship. The distance along the axis of travel can only increase, or stay the same, and the linear distance can only ever be greater than or equal to the distance along the axis. Having reached the second point in this diagram, the blue ship can now never get closer than 86m to the red ship.

This means that if the initial distance between the ships along the axis of travel is greater than weapon range, it is impossible for the blue ship to get within shooting range of the red ship.

This of course assumes that a) the red ship does not change course, and b) the ships are travelling at the same average speed.

There will be some formula for determining the theoretical minimum possible distance, given the initial vectors, but I can't immediately think of what it would be. Something to do with differentiating the trigonometric functions, I think.

*Using m as the unit just for simplicity.
Click to expand...

The thing is though that by using strafe in conjunction with forward motion there is also motion on the y axis. So i guess by using strafe also it would be possible to catch the other quad; effectively travelling x and y at the same time.

This would give the extra distance covered to catch up i think.

I never carry anything anyway, so shoot away :).
 
Norbert said:
The thing is though that by using strafe in conjunction with forward motion there is also motion on the y axis. So i guess by using strafe also it would be possible to catch the other quad; effectively travelling x and y at the same time.

This would give the extra distance covered to catch up i think.
Click to expand...

See assumption b :)
 
Oleg said:
There will be some formula for determining the theoretical minimum possible distance, given the initial vectors, but I can't immediately think of what it would be. Something to do with differentiating the trigonometric functions, I think.
Click to expand...

The (constant) distance between their projections onto the bisector of the angle is the minimum distance. (Actually reached on a line parallel to the bisector.)
 
billairboy said:
Loosk nice on paper and in theory, but in pratical in 3D space and constant changing direction and you only have your eyes to try do judge the correct angle of intercept? I don't buy it.
Click to expand...

If a guy wanted to become a hunter - would you send him to go listen to a professional colorer's advice on how to hunt. So ja makes total sense for non pirates to come in here and "teach" you how "pirates pirate" lol. Its a circus in here - flipping hilarious. Live in space for a year or more in his shoes as a pirate - till then your opinions are hearsay versus someone with real experience. Easy.

I understand why Xane feels the need to come public with the way they are treated. But these things should have been dealt with silent in game with game tactics - there is always a way. You cant expect to reason with unreasonable people - especially when they are your targets lol
 
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atomicstorm said:
0^0 = 1

(In BASIC)

Mmmm
Click to expand...

Can't help wondering if rule 3.6 ("real-world controversial discussion") applies to topics that were controversial in 19th century. :laugh:

Anyway, Google "thinks" 0^0=1, too, and it's hard to argue with THAT.
 
Haruto Rat said:
Can't help wondering if rule 3.6 ("real-world controversial discussion") applies to topics that were controversial in 19th century. :laugh:

Anyway, Google "thinks" 0^0=1, too, and it's hard to argue with THAT.
Click to expand...

No computers in the 19th century....
 
billairboy said:
Hard for me to believe it's possible to use this tactic very often and cath up, sometimes yes, with a bit of luck. I mean, how would the chaser be able to correcly read the direction/angle of the ship they are chasing? And also, the one trying to get away problably constantly try to change their direction a bit to make it harder. It's also not "2D" it's 3D, even harder to match. So hard for me to think it will be possible very often it they both have the same speed.
Click to expand...

We don't do any calculations it's all intuition, you know like the force, developed from doing it about 10k times.
 
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