How Base DPP Affects Your Loot

Basically.. this is and expanded Slithered test, but amplified across tens of thousands of kills

Setup is as follows:
Mod Ares, imp athenic, no armor/plates, adj chip for heals (so no defensive decay). Ozpyn chon + a101 used as a finisher in both setups.

Weapon 1: EWE LC-120 (L) + RDI Alpha (3.026 dpp)

TT in: 10450.45
TT out: 10478.80

Return %: 100.27%

Largest Loot: 117 ped
Number of globals: 43


Weapon 2: Piron PBR-20 (UL) + Beast (2.56 dpp)

TT in: 18474.13
TT out: 18366.17

Return %: 99.42%

Largest Loot: 267 ped
Number of globals: 93



Observations while testing

1) My average loot per mob increased when using the Piron PBR-20. What I mean by this is that my average loot, without a multiplier, on a kerb alpha was around 2.3 ped.... vs. only 1.8 ped for the lc-120.

2) Frequency of globals is dramatically increased when you're using a shitty dpp weapon.

3) I think the return with the piron would be closer to 98% if I continued to shoot for a few more days.. with that low dpp it might take even longer than anticipated to get a normalized return.

4) Shockingly, I never hit a "big" global with the piron.. This could be a mechanism of the low dpp.. where I would normally get a 100-200 ped kickback with the lc-120, I'm not getting that with the piron after 5k+ kills.

Conclusions from this data

1) un-multiplied mob loot appears to be a direct reflection of your base dpp

It is easy to view the low dpp increasing the global rate, but really, it was just kicking the 15-20 ped mini-globals into full 25-35 ped globals. multiplier frequency remained constant between both weapons only the size of the loot changed.

2) DPP MATTERS

Whether in terms of raw-tt return in the long run, or a short 500 ped run, dpp clearly made a difference, not just in my overall returns, but in the kind of loot i got
I received far more ammo/shrapnel with the piron than I did with the Lc-120... in comparison to the rest of my loot. I got more weapons, wools, hides, components, and oils with the lc-120 than with the piron.

Whatever other conclusion you wish to draw from this that's fine... but I'm thoroughly convinced that dpp makes a difference, despite my initial contention that it would operate primarily as a condition slider. DPP seems to make a difference in how much "loot" you pull from the available loot on the server through your multipliers. My suspicion is that every player gets an equal portion of the pool, but higher dpp setups result in a lower input cost, and thus better returns.

This is why I think imk2 and other such high-dpp weapons are so valuable. With that rate of dpp, you're able to "steal" more community loot pool peds for a lesser cost.

How rings, EST, and pills affect loot is still a mystery and far too hard to calculate.. but when i removed my ares ring my loot per mob didn't change as it would have if i changed to a lower dpp weapon. So my guess is that buffs which raise dpp lower input costs further, allowing more ped to be taken from the pool after multipliers. AKA Easter ring is boss AF.

tt in 21866.45 tt out 21126.3 - 96.62%

thats both runs combined. welcome to my average tt returns. i do not consider 10k or 20k as "long term" as i can do that in a weekend. your test is fine but the volume of peds is a bit small to say "this is how its is for everyone".

at best its a great test for newbies and for that i thank you for your efforts. please make a uber test next

For a valid test, we would have needed to see the loots of each mob for a mean to determine base dpp effect. That's what slithered test was about.

atomicstorm said:

For a valid test, we would have needed to see the loots of each mob for a mean to determine base dpp effect. That's what slithered test was about.

Click to expand...

yeah well recording the individual loots of 11k+ mobs would be taxing as hell.. I notice an overall increase in ped-value for un-multiplied loots.. it was actually fairly obvious while hunting.

Where the low dpp hurt me was the no-looters and novas.

I wish I could've camped kerbs for an entire month and done the test, but that's just boring as hell.. 11k+ kills of 2 ped mobs seemed alright for now

Rocket192 said:

I wish I could've camped kerbs for an entire month and done the test, but that's just boring as hell..

Click to expand...

agreed.
I think the kerbs would claim a victory everytime your head falls on your keyboard.

Nice test, could have been bigger but that could always be said.

Curious how much markup you paid for you're LC-120(L)/amp usage. I know this is a tt test but those piron are dirt cheap and might be worth using instead of an L markup setup.

Also, skills earned on each setup is also a factor.

And finally If you weren't using a finisher then that will play a factor in %return. From my short test overkill is not returned, so using a big hitting uneco weapon on the kill shot isn't going to be good for %returns.

slither said:

Nice test, could have been bigger but that could always be said.

Curious how much markup you paid for you're LC-120(L)/amp usage. I know this is a tt test but those piron are dirt cheap and might be worth using instead of an L markup setup.

Also, skills earned on each setup is also a factor.

And finally If you weren't using a finisher then that will play a factor in %return. From my short test overkill is not returned, so using a big hitting uneco weapon on the kill shot isn't going to be good for %returns.

Click to expand...

Chon +a101 was used as a finisher for both weapons. Kind of annoying when the piron would crit for 190, but has to do it.

Honestly, the sample size for the piron may not have been large enough. I burned through 3.5 RDI alpha amps at 15 ped each, so 49 ped markup there, plus another 27 ped markup for the 6 Lc-120s.

That being said I still feel like I can achieve around 100% with the lc-120 setup.. But the piron may be closer to 95% with further testing.

It was 10/10 more fun hunting with the piron and hitting 3-4 globals in 10 mobs from time to time.

With LC120 you did (approx) 3,162,306.17 damage. With the Piron you did (approx) 2,922,496 damage.

For 1k less input ped, you did 240k more damage, which is equivalent to approx 390-470 extra kerbs (depending on dom or alpha kerb). Over time, you're more likely to hit the multis with high dpp due to being able to shoot more mobs for the same input.

Also, you're at an advantage on shared mobs with higher dpp, as you get a larger slice of the pie for the same input ped.

One thing: eco of L items should be calculated raw, without any markup (didn't checked if is the case in your math, just being captain obvious with something which took me some time to realize).

It is not to say that input MU shouldn't be considered, just that one needs to think at it as expense which should be recuperated from looted MU, not from looted tt.

Maybe I am just silly writing this, but especially in mining this ate my nose until I understood it. Is really a game changer once you open your eyes.

Ontopic, I am not sure on the quality of loot conclusion, in my experience it varies by itself, not by the setup, it might be that kerb is an extremely popular mob. I might be very wrong though. 100% agree on the importance of nolooters/novas in the economy consideration.

Well, with the quality of loot point.. it's just a case of more multipliers.. odds are I'm not going to get lots of wool, components, and soft hide from a global.. more likely shrapnel, ammo, and muscle oil.

Input markup was excluded from the data.


Further, I'm expanding this further for a bigger sample size. The size I used, especially for the prion, was too small. I'm going to try and do 50k ped with each. And if I hit a loot over 500 ped I'll probably exclude it unless it was a kickback hof from some bad losses. Currently grinding $5's LA, which doesn't typically loot over 300 ped, so it's a good testing ground.

I'll update this data when it's finished, hopefully by October.


But like I said before, hunting with low dpp is fun as hell, provided you have thousands of ped to cover the losses. Right now what'a typically a 5 ped mob costs me nearly 7 ped to kill.

Another observation, low dpp weapons can be taken advantage of during events that pay per global or reward points per global, as you global more frequently with them.

Tell LT that 2.56 dpp turns into 94% return, he will kill you

to be accurate what the av loot on each mob is you need to grp up and kill a f*** lot of them, probably more than 200k and you still got variance. a single hof can mess up your results here.

anyway very nice work so far

Nice work.

I would be very interested in the average loot per mob, after taking out top 10% and bottom 10% first.

Rgds

Ace

Interesting.

Ok; so let's assume we get hold of one of the new 'adjusted' weapons, be it gun sword whip etc.

Will an amp "always" improve the situation or should amps be avoided?

What about melee amp on say Adjusted Bolga (unl), or one of the adjusted det swords?

I'm more and more convinced we're got to run with one of the new adjusted weapons, if you don't have millions of peds to buy an old school imk2 or modmerc.

Also even if you're 10/10 hit ability, do you think you still need level 100 to make it even more DPP?

Rick

RickEngland said:

Interesting.

Ok; so let's assume we get hold of one of the new 'adjusted' weapons, be it gun sword whip etc.

Will an amp "always" improve the situation or should amps be avoided?

What about melee amp on say Adjusted Bolga (unl), or one of the adjusted det swords?

I'm more and more convinced we're got to run with one of the new adjusted weapons, if you don't have millions of peds to buy an old school imk2 or modmerc.

Also even if you're 10/10 hit ability, do you think you still need level 100 to make it even more DPP?

Rick

Click to expand...

if you are 10/10 on that weapon any additional skill point wont matter a single shit.

Well in terms of mining, the tt cost per drop is pretty similar whether it's a tt finder or old Bessie. And the overall tt return is similar. However, the types of loot found are quite different.

Also, in crafting the slider bar can alter the composition of your loot.

So why is it so hard to believe that different weapons might influence the composition of your hunting loot?

JohnCapital said:

Well in terms of mining, the tt cost per drop is pretty similar whether it's a tt finder or old Bessie. And the overall tt return is similar. However, the types of loot found are quite different.

Also, in crafting the slider bar can alter the composition of your loot.

So why is it so hard to believe that different weapons might influence the composition of your hunting loot?

Click to expand...

maybe because in crafting the slider just points out the amount of tt value on your item / increases the stack size (similar to indoor or outdoor mining) so no real difference there, as well as in mining old tools or new tools doesnt really matter as long as the depth is in the same range both would find exactly the same... so no difference there either

JohnCapital said:

So why is it so hard to believe that different weapons might influence the composition of your hunting loot?

Click to expand...

What I have problems with is connecting such variation to dpp variation. I could see this working laser vs blp, unamped vs amped, melee vs firearms vs mindforce, high decay vs low decay. But eco vs. non eco makes, for me, no sense. MA rewarding with quality items if you spend less.

Nargon said:

Tell LT that 2.56 dpp turns into 94% return, he will kill you

to be accurate what the av loot on each mob is you need to grp up and kill a f*** lot of them, probably more than 200k and you still got variance. a single hof can mess up your results here.

anyway very nice work so far

Click to expand...

Got 109.69% return last night on his LA with it. 4.2k cycled. I had over 1400 ped in global that run and still only finished 109%... that, is the problem with these weapons honestly. But it is fun, and returns may even out.

What I've noticed is that it costs me more to farm markup with low-dpp.. I looted some guns for that 4.2k cycled. I could have looted the same guns with the same amount of kills for only 3.4k ped. That's a massive difference, assuming I would have looted the guns.
Even if nothing matters TT-wise with low dpp vs high dpp.. you'll get more markup on average per ped spent using high dpp.. at least that's my finding. Item drops are based on kills, not global frequency, so this makes sense.

Also, the loot swings during a hunt are enough to drive anyone insane. I can go -1k TT on the first 2k easy.

Rocket192 said:

Got 109.69% return last night on his LA with it. 4.2k cycled. I had over 1400 ped in global that run and still only finished 109%... that, is the problem with these weapons honestly. But it is fun, and returns may even out.

What I've noticed is that it costs me more to farm markup with low-dpp.. I looted some guns for that 4.2k cycled. I could have looted the same guns with the same amount of kills for only 3.4k ped. That's a massive difference, assuming I would have looted the guns.
Even if nothing matters TT-wise with low dpp vs high dpp.. you'll get more markup on average per ped spent using high dpp.. at least that's my finding. Item drops are based on kills, not global frequency, so this makes sense.

Also, the loot swings during a hunt are enough to drive anyone insane. I can go -1k TT on the first 2k easy.

Click to expand...

Thats one way to view it. I personaly subscribe to the low dpp = higher cost per kill therefore larger individual loots on average which may in turn allow condition items such as guns to drop more frequently theory. No proof of this more of a gut feeling. I believe if you spend less ie high dpp = lower cost to kill therfore smaller loot per kill and might then yeild oils/ammo because an item wouldnt fit within the given loot instance. Not sure this one can ever be proven tbh. Thats deep in the ma loot blackbox system and we may never know if dpp has any influence at all on looted items. But this is another discussion i wont dive too deep into here.

JohnCapital said:

So why is it so hard to believe that different weapons might influence the composition of your hunting loot?

Click to expand...

What? Let's not leap to conclusions without hard evidence.

He already said that the loot variance was most likely due to more globals with low DPP, and globals are almost always composed of ammo+shrap on Calypso especially on overhunted mobs such as Kerbs.

ZPF said:

What? Let's not leap to conclusions without hard evidence.

He already said that the loot variance was most likely due to more globals with low DPP, and globals are almost always composed of ammo+shrap on Calypso especially on overhunted mobs such as Kerbs.

Click to expand...

There is already evidence of base dpp changing the amount you get each kill (mean). No need to redo this test and no point in saying it doesn't exist.

Now how that translate into anything beyond that is yet to be determined.

atomicstorm said:

Now how that translate into anything beyond that is yet to be determined.

Click to expand...

And almost impossible to test w/o excellent third-part software to keep records, and a substantial ped card to weather the losses.. not to mention a great attention span and consistent mob choices...

skills might also influence returns over time which could corrupt the data..

Rocket192 said:

And almost impossible to test w/o excellent third-part software to keep records, and a substantial ped card to whether the losses.. not to mention a great attention span and consistent mob choices...

skills might also influence returns over time which could corrupt the data..

Click to expand...

I have software I wrote to do that. I just don't really want to bother.

atomicstorm said:

There is already evidence of base dpp changing the amount you get each kill (mean). No need to redo this test and no point in saying it doesn't exist.

Now how that translate into anything beyond that is yet to be determined.

Click to expand...

I'm referring to this ridiculous notion that DPP in and of itself somehow works as depth does in mining, and causes different items to appear in your loot window.

No hard evidence for that, just conspiracy.

DPP affects amounts, which indirectly may or may not have an effect on loot composition. That's all that's been proven.

ZPF said:

I'm referring to this ridiculous notion that DPP in and of itself somehow works as depth does in mining, and causes different items to appear in your loot window.

No hard evidence for that, just conspiracy.

DPP affects amounts, which indirectly may or may not have an effect on loot composition. That's all that's been proven.

Click to expand...

Oh, well.. correct but in theory, it could by probability... but you'll need to think about how increasing the average loot would benefit you....

atomicstorm said:

Oh, well.. correct but in theory, it could by probability... but you'll need to think about how increasing the average loot would benefit you....

Click to expand...

Yup. It's a boon to the wave farmers. eg If you know when ESIs are gonna hit, the lower your DPP the better, to force globals.

ZPF said:

Yup. It's a boon to the wave farmers. eg If you know when ESIs are gonna hit, the lower your DPP the better, to force globals.

Click to expand...

neither of my two esi's happened on globals this week. just 20-30 ped loots.. same reason people aren't looting EP-41s on globals either..

Item loots such as armor, weapons, esi, are glued to kill counts in my opinion.. sure it varies, but if something is set to drop every 10k kills, then it will, roughly. higher dpp enables you to farm better loot at a lower price.


for example: output components on kreltin.. i could hunt w/ 2.1dpp and still only loot 1 output component per mob, and I won't receive more than one output component each global.

If you don't believe me test for yourself. items like 100 ped TT guns might drop at the same amount regardless of dpp.. but there's no doubt that a lower cost to kill = higher average markup through the example i gave.

Updated PBR-20 stats w/ two more runs...

I'll keep using it at least for the next week, maybe longer, then switch back to the lc-120 to get a good sample on both, but i'll keep the results updated 1-2 times/week.

PBR-20 TT return normalized to ~99%

broke 24 ped markup in enhancers, looted two small esi. Doing well overall. Waiting for the crash to come of course.

I've said too much already.

Rocket192 said:

Item loots such as armor, weapons, esi, are glued to kill counts

Click to expand...

Just know that this is wrong. Rare loots are tied to waves (and luck, obviously). 99% of the time. If your kill count is high enough the stars are bound to align eventually.

But you can't hit an ESI unless your loot window was pre-determined to be at least 10 PED TT. This is where low DPP and/OR high kill cost come into play.

ZPF said:

I've said too much already.



Just know that this is wrong. Rare loots are tied to waves (and luck, obviously). 99% of the time. If your kill count is high enough the stars are bound to align eventually.

But you can't hit an ESI unless your loot window was pre-determined to be at least 10 PED TT. This is where low DPP and/OR high kill cost come into play.

Click to expand...

Well, regardless. these Piron guns are extremely under-valued in my opinion right now.

I'm also in the top-3 for the BIG weekly circuit event. Considering I've only cycled ~7.5k TT this week that says something about low dpp being used to exploit events that reward globals.

Also, $5's LA seldom loots large, so that may be helping my consistency so that I don't hit any huge minuses.