Question: Amount of kills to balance out returns

Nargon said:

on point.

can be tough (longest dry spell 1700 kills without a single global )

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I killed 2,700 Longus before I had a global, a few weeks ago. I feel like it is due to either the mob being a good producer, or the hunter being efficient, which results in good returns without the need of globals to compensate. Finished the 5k iron at 96% with 2 globals.

Krillzoo said:

I killed 2,700 Longus before I had a global, a few weeks ago. I feel like it is due to either the mob being a good producer, or the hunter being efficient, which results in good returns without the need of globals to compensate. Finished the 5k iron at 96% with 2 globals.

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The latter. Globals are fun, however, a given hunter's average loot value will be relatively consistent, with globals/hofs representing random spikes and some sad moment representing the corresponding random dips. An efficient hunter can stretch a deposit longer, but will get about the same returns. A timing-hawk can sometimes end up on the profitable end of things, and sometimes not. A smart trader can profit.

Chasing specific loots tends to be unproductive due to the sheer number of possible loots in the system. For example if I want bio id's, and I know a specific mob drops bio id's, I'll eventually loot those bio id's from that mob - after looting an insane amount of other stuff. I am more likely to chase efficiency to prolong my hunt, and just hope I can sell the majority of my loots not too far below their market values. This means huge stacks and lots of patience.

das said:

Balance out returns has nothing to do with ppl being able to tt profit.. Some ppl's setup is just that crazy diffrence in dpp vs normal players.
I know my setup is ok for some mobs & when I stick to them & my other rules, my TT return seems pretty good

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My usual strategy is similar - after I start using a particular setup, I'll note which mobs it works well on, and drift into mostly hunting those mobs. When I chase some mob outside of that habit (ie for an event), I do see a drop in my returns.

@ lefty.. For me it's more then that alone.
For example, normally I wouldn't hunt next to someone like Linzey as I know he has more dps & dpp.
Yesterday I did do that ho & got away with it but I still think that was pure luck.
You can check his global spam & mine, I hunted for a bit over an hour to get that swirlie

das said:

Balance out returns has nothing to do with ppl being able to tt profit.. Some ppl's setup is just that crazy diffrence in dpp vs normal players.
I know my setup is ok for some mobs & when I stick to them & my other rules, my TT return seems pretty good

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But this is why it's a pointless question. Solo in an empty server is the only situation you would get "normal" returns after some kills. The only factor you can control is yourself (your dpp & dps; though in a closed system both would actually be irrelevant).

There are so many other factors introduced when other players are added, that you would be far better concentrating on how to exploit that rather than grinding a specific amount.

The simple answer is hilariously, "it's dynamic" and that number could be 1000 or it could be 100000000.

Aio said:

Q: Where do you guys think the money comes from when you loot a creature?

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depositors

You buy 10 socks from MA, throw them in a laundering maschine who constantly eat one.
withdraw 9 socks ---> there you go, MA +1

loot ≠ money....sort of...just a exchange

Nargon said:

You buy 10 socks from MA, throw them in a laundering maschine who constantly eat one.
withdraw 9 socks ---> there you go, MA +1

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Missing socks are known to turn into coathangers, which could explain why there are so many hangars.

Nargon said:

depositors

You buy 10 socks from MA, throw them in a laundering maschine who constantly eat one.
withdraw 9 socks ---> there you go, MA +1

loot ≠ money....sort of...just a exchange

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Correct, now how does that exchange work? Be specific.

If it helps, think first about a 'single player' version of entropia.

The reason I replied the way I did das is that my thinking is that its not about your total amount of mobs you kill but I think its far more important with killcount per hour and ofc efficiency. You notice pretty fast if your hunt is a gamble or if its "real" hunting, no need to kill a million mobs to tell.

(Gz to that hof btw you thief )

//Linz

Aio said:

Correct, now how does that exchange work? Be specific.

If it helps, think first about a 'single player' version of entropia.

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is the same in a single player version, because you can't loot anything without an input.
one player or 10000 its exactly the same (imo)


If everyone just sit on the oil rig all day it will ruin MA ....but it will get removed very fast in this case

Nargon said:

is the same in a single player version, because you can't loot anything without an input.
one player or 10000 its exactly the same (imo)


If everyone just sit on the oil rig all day it will ruin MA ....but it will get removed very fast in this case

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It would only be the same, if everyone was identical. The whole point in Entropia is that you skill up your avatar and those skills have a direct effect on your gameplay. Even in this thread we have ultra-high skilled (Linzey), high skilled (das), medium skilled (myself), and a few newer players too. In addition to skills you then have weapons/tools and "personal" skills too.

Now, in the "single player entropia" a player would shoot (and therefore spend money), and loot (and therefore receive money). MA can never go negative, so in this scenario the player would be guaranteed to lose whatever "cost" MA put on gameplay (which is their rake / cut / whatever you want to call it).

Now, lets design a scenario where there are two players; but one group of mobs on one server. If we look purely at DPP in isolation (i.e. DPS is the same, play style is the same - they kill the same mobs per hour and all other costs are identical such as armour / tool costs) - player A has 1 dpp and player B has 2 dpp. Who would be more profitable?

Well, even with this single variable the answer is not straight forward. Would player B be on average, have better returns? Yes. Would it be possible, even over a long period, for player A to have better returns? Yes. Would it be possible that they both had the exact same returns? Yes.

All this is down to the absolute intricacies of the looting system and I'm not going to divulge that in this thread (I'm already holding everyone's hand through this a lot here ).

What happens when we combine a second variable, DPS, into the equation?

Well, if player A has more DPS than player B, he would be spending more per hour, but having more looting events per hour. Player B would be spending less per hour, but his cost per looting event would be less.

If player B has more DPS than player A, he could be spending more per hour, and having more looting events per hour. Player A could be spending less per hour, but his cost per looting event would be greater.

This should start you on the track of thinking correctly when talking about hunting.

So, back to the original question... if a player were to hunt a certain mob, and he were always more inefficient and did so at a lower speed than another player who always hunted the same mob at the same time... then the player would NEVER see his average return rate "normalise" to the correct number.

Making sense yet guys?

krogfan said:

The reason I replied the way I did das is that my thinking is that its not about your total amount of mobs you kill but I think its far more important with killcount per hour and ofc efficiency. You notice pretty fast if your hunt is a gamble or if its "real" hunting, no need to kill a million mobs to tell.

(Gz to that hof btw you thief )

//Linz

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I think while you say you're not great at math, you're obviously intuitive when it comes to "feeling" what works and what does not... in essence, the theory in practice. It might have been trial and error to get there, but to be fair with so little information upfront from MA, everyone has to go through that T&E.

Aio said:

Making sense yet guys?

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Yes, but you put in too dramatic terms. Original question was when return would normalize, e.g. "how many mobs should one kill to hope to get from, say, 75% to something decent, above 95%".

What other players are doing, with what speed and what eco has exactly 0 relevance toward this interpretation of the question. Those things matter when you're making a difference between 99% and 100,5% over three months of 1k/day at least.

And to try my answer on topic, I believe that each mob has its own particular sinewave (with most of them probably grouped in tiers so to say) and you actually have to sample and sample to see how it behaves. E.g. if a 4 ped/kill mob gives constant 1-2 pedders, lots of nolooters and globals are barely a 10 multi enhanced by regen, then alarm bells should ring. Should you leave and try other day? Should you change dps? Should you push nomatter what? Absolutely no idea here to be honest.

Kerham said:

What other players are doing, with what speed and what eco has exactly 0 relevance toward this interpretation of the question.

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It has absolutely everything do to with this question. Until we play a single player entropia, at which point we can revisit the question and I'm sure some statisticians will give you the answer.

To add some further pondering to what Aio has said...

Aio said:

...

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On another scenario,

If both Player A and Player B had the same DPP, but different DPS.

And

Assuming that there's a "loot pool" (in this "over-simplified, simulated EU environment"), that the "loot pool" will "never" pay out more than it can and will "auto-adjust" its "payout" (could be actual TT value, could be multipliers or a mix of both) according to how much it had at that time.

Then

Depending on the "health" of the "loot pool", the player with the higher DPS could possibly be the one who's "filling up the loot pool".
I.E. Lower DPS -> More dependent on "LUCK" to loot.
Higher DPS -> More "stable" returns statistically, but nonetheless still dependent on the state of the loot pool.

(Well...I'm just adding another "dimension" (possible factor) to the "loot equation" here.
Nothing else and no disrespect meant to anyone.)


Hence, I truly believe that not only does number of kills matter, you (OP) should also take into consideration the "time period/duration" that those kills take place over.


For instance, a couple of hundred kills per day, over a period of one month. (Or something like that.)

My

Purely speculating, but based on my sub-par periods which can last 1-2 months, I'd say 50,000 kills to even out returns.

Aio said:

It has absolutely everything do to with this question. Until we play a single player entropia, at which point we can revisit the question and I'm sure some statisticians will give you the answer.

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I have never ever saw any kind of log which to show long time return of, say, 85% in hunting.

If we would be competing, we would be competing both when Lindsey is rocking and I lose, BUT also when I have a 200%tt return day, and I find it very hard to accept I take those from Lindsey or Cristi, let aside from newbs at Icarus shooting together in 1 week what I shoot in 1 day (or less).

At the moment of every looting event, we already spent. That event itself is already paid. It is enough to tie some factors to the cost to kill of that mob, certain tolerance for dpp, since we are in such a large gamut, and that's it.

The idea of a lootpool such as is discussed here is absurd. Why on Earth would the server compare in same time, say, 450 different players looting 450 different mobs, counting together equipment, skills and what not could amount to billions of operations per second. And to what end, to establish a top of who gets the bigger pie? Is absurd.

It doesn't have to be a personal pool, neither, thing which I believed for a long time. A simple f->L is more than enough, and that is obvious in skill progression for instance. Also a very good descriptor for both "omg this mob is golden" and for the situation when you feel nomatter what you do, it won't pay. Also almost impossible to control from enduser perspective.

If we would be competing in such a ridiculous way and if dpp and dps would be as important as stated (all three factors taken as granted by entropian common wisdom), then we, those currently anywhere from 2.7 to 2.9 (because there are no actual options bigger than 2.85 until lvl 60 or so?) would need to deposit daily as soon as we go over 10 dps. It doesn't bloody happen. Yes there's a bad day. Yes, you go to kadra with 800 on card (me) and expect a bloody miracle and you lose. Yes, then you get the funky idea of getting into Halloween when you have no business there and you lose (ye, here on same mob, I could accept a form of competition, but not even close to what is stated around) etc. But minding my own business and not pressurized by all kind of gear which I think I need, buy, discover I have too small bankroll, sell it underpriced etc..? I would say is very very close to actually exactly a single player. Yes, we compete on MU, deffinitely. Yes, someone shooting 10x times same mob has more chances to loot this or that item or this or that type of stackable, obvious.

But tt? Imo, lootpool and competition is the biggest bs ever invented in Entropia since its inception, I saw not the slightest hint of proof for it, yet is taken as granted. Yes, I am aware of MA's statements about lootpools. I would bet my nose (if anyone cares for this ante), that lootpool means a couple of pecs taken from each ava over extended periods of time to make ATH or other obvious jackpot payments. But I would be bewildered to be a big bucket in which I just left today 700 or what is exact ammount and messi is awarded from it 12,45 followed closeby by shokolade with 11,7. Is ridiculous.

U know how there's a "Ped Flow Center" for each player that holds deeds that pays out? What's to say that they don't have an "account-like entity" (a.k.a. loot pools) for tracking EU's state of health?

And as for payout being dependent on loot pools' state of health, it doesn't have to be micro-managed like what your thinking.

Could be somewhat like a water reservoir whereby upon reaching certain threshold levels, the payout probabilities get altered....more "no looters/fragments" & less "multipliers".

So when someone hunts/mines/crafts during those times, they get less impressive returns. And if you up your costs per sec during those times, you literally get "&%^&*" by the server.

This type of assumption (where loot pools exist) can, imo, somewhat account for why some people get sub-par returns no matter what equipment they use, using the same equipment but during different periods of time (variances in returns when spending peds during summer/winter periods for instance).

And if the existence of loot pools are absurd, then

Kerham said:

"a couple of pecs taken from each ava over extended periods of time to make ATH or other obvious jackpot payments"

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isn't considered a "loot pool"?

(Just discussing...no offense intended.)

I will write this up fully soon I guess, because I'm tired of re-explaining everything and a link in my sig to the explanation would be easier

If you want some personal evidence;

When Mayhem started, it was 2-3 minutes before the first global. I had about 3 kills, so I'd guess every player who entered the instance killed between 1 and 5 mobs. Suddenly, the globals started and were consistent from then on.

Secondly, if you've ever hunted in a very quiet zone with one other player, especially when you're far apart in dps, you'll notice a strange proportioning of the globals. 9/10 the high dps player will be "winning" and 1/10 the low dps player does so. It can be extremely profitable in either scenario if you hit it right

Finally, the theory I have drawn up over time is the only one I've seen which explains all hunting mechanisms within one description. Even in your post Kerham, you managed to contradict yourself saying there is definitely no loot pool as they would be too complex, and then finish saying there's an ATH lootpool (of which we know, they are "special" loots (Alan Krom's advertising ATH for example).

Oh I love theories!
The good ones, the bad ones, the crazy ones and the impossible ones they are all awesome

How about another one?

So there is no lootpool (surprise mutherfuckers). No personal, no proffession based. No lootpools whatsoever. Instead its simple - shoot, loot, shoot, loot, shoot, read forum, loot before carcass dissapiers, shoot....
So where the loot comes from? From shooting, looting,shooting. Why should there be a pool? MA takes form mini transactions not from each pec shot out of ur gun. One thing people forget. MA do not take cut from ur returns. They take a fee from all your transactions that involve auction, deposits, withdrawals, adverts, artwork uploads, etcetc
So why should there be a lootpool. Its more like a threshold. Reach it and u are awarded, dont reach it, well sucks for you.


Anyways now back to all seriousenss about OP.
Hunt how much u want or can. It doesnt matter. At the end of the given time period u will kill ur 500-25000 mobs. Doesnt need to be in one go. Track the returns in any way u want, hourly, daily, after each run (whats a run? 1k ammo? 10h? 1 month?)

Yes i am a bit of a geek i track everything, including each of my auction sales, everything i buy, basically each ped, are my statistics correct? Probably not! Do i kill 2500 mobs each run? No! I can kill mere 200 zombies in an hour so would take me 12h to do it. Would i calc only once i reach that? No! I will calc when i stop or when i have time.

For me what matters is time spent in activity. Means i was there i had same chance of getting same stuff everyone else can get. If i stand at auction or spend time reading forums, mindboggling theories - i am not out there, not shooting, not looting, means i lost it. I didnt even have a chance of looting smth someone else somewhere did.

Honest advice from honest player - enjoy the game, its good, just play it. If u like statistics and all, you are welcome, if u want to shoot you are welcome too. Do what u want - thats why we love entropia. But arguing about what is the RIGHT amount of kills needed is pretty fucking meaningless. Time wasted. Time spent not shooting...


Have a wonderful day PCF
Soko

sawachika said:

isn't considered a "loot pool"?

(Just discussing...no offense intended.)

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Of course, but that is as much as I am willing to credit the idea with. A microscopic amount taken from everyone, which affects nobody, and is building up some jackpots for marketing purposes. What I dispute is the idea that when you shoot, that goes entirely into the lootpool, and when you loot, is calculated how much dpp you have compared to other hundreds ava looting in same time different mobs. And I am discussing exclusively from a tt point of view, the type of resource looted is a different discussion and is obvious in certain cases the server works alot to allocate it.

A lottery pays 90% back.
If you buy all tickets you get 90%. Since our EU "Lottery" has no pure money pay back, but items with possible MU & even very high MU special prizes, you can profit if you just buy a lot of tickets - has not to be all.

Now there might be some " avatar loot correction" on the TT, and I believe there is such a thing, and possibly other little gimmicks to cover up the lottery system, but that's it.

Oh, and EU has a constantly filled and drained pool, and not a pot such as a typical lottery.

But No, EU is no "real" lottery, but that's just because of TT+ / MU. So - go for MU + special prizes, try to spend as little / ticket as possible and buy as many tickets as you can

Kerham said:

Of course, but that is as much as I am willing to credit the idea with. A microscopic amount taken from everyone, which affects nobody, and is building up some jackpots for marketing purposes. What I dispute is the idea that when you shoot, that goes entirely into the lootpool, and when you loot, is calculated how much dpp you have compared to other hundreds ava looting in same time different mobs. And I am discussing exclusively from a tt point of view, the type of resource looted is a different discussion and is obvious in certain cases the server works alot to allocate it.

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Yup, I'm also thinking exclusively from a TT point of view.

Is it really necessary for the server to calculate how much dpp you have compared to the other hundreds of looting avatars? To me, the dpp is just a byproduct that we players use to calculate how effective we are at killing versus the costs. For the server, all it needs to do is to calculate how much HP was removed from the mob and pay out accordingly.

Ignoring mob regen, which somewhat skews the picture, a mob's payout (in TT) appears to be pretty close to 3 pecs per 10 hp.

E.g.
A 10 hp mob pays out, on average, loot worth about slightly lesser than 3 pecs. A 100 hp mob would loot, on average, slightly less than 30 pecs...and so on and so forth.

From then on, how much you've spent to kill that mob is "your problem" and not the server's. If you've spent way more than that, your filling the loot pool. If your spending less than that, your taking away from the loot pool.

The goal is to be as close to that as possible. And if simply not possible, to be spending way lesser than compared to your "peers".

And on an off-hand note, ever tried hunting wolves in "Hunt The Thing" on Rocktropia? They (the loot) sucked. Its hardly paying out at all. Not even close to 3 pecs per 10 hp. Server in "stingy" mode over there? Who knows...

------

But boy...are we off topic.

My original point is actually to suggest to the OP to take into consideration the period over which the number of kills take place...because...

As more and more people try to "avoid" being the "fella who's filling up the loot pool", the "duration" in which the server might be in "stingy" mode lengthens....and thus...to compensate for that, one either has to "increase the number of kills" or "increase the duration over which the kills take place".

Thus, simply asking "Amount of kills to balance out returns" isn't quite enough...imho.

One cannot simply say how much kills needed to balance out returns because it's somewhat incorrect to average when one mob can give you 1000x times more loot than the other one.