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Info: Is eco ALL you need? Test

Fifth said:
True. Good point.
However, it doesn't explain the story in my example. There was no huge hofs, just the usual small globals now and then... Next, please! :)
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you even said that it could not be reproduced. doesnt that pretty much state the fact that it was luck? even without big multipliers it can end up being lucky. hit lots of ESIs, hit a hto wave with like 20 multisplier in 50 mobs a few times and so on. when it cant be reproduced you cant use it as a statement against dpp...
 
Me Really Never said:
you even said that it could not be reproduced. doesnt that pretty much state the fact that it was luck? even without big multipliers it can end up being lucky. hit lots of ESIs, hit a hto wave with like 20 multisplier in 50 mobs a few times and so on. when it cant be reproduced you cant use it as a statement against dpp...
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No ESI's, no items with high MU, nothing out of the ordinary. The frequency of globals seemed to be lower than some other avas in the spawn were getting right next to me (this lucker bastard fluske for example lol)... but as I don't know their dps (and thus peds spent per h), lets say it was the same for me as for anyone else.

Or, lets rather try it from another angle. Suppose i got unusually high amount of globals. This happening over 10k kills (kills not points) raises the same question again, why so many globals during such an extended period? Maybe I had + loot period, right? Well, but the chances of this starting with the evisc mission and ending with it... astronomically low I would say.

Neah, I don't buy it. Afaik, there has to be another explanation...
 
Fifth said:
No ESI's, no items with high MU, nothing out of the ordinary. The frequency of globals seemed to be lower than some other avas in the spawn were getting right next to me (this lucker bastard fluske for example lol)... but without hard evidence lets say it was the same for me as for anyone else.

Or, lets rather try it from another angle. Suppose i got unusually high amount of globals. This happening over 10k kills (kills not points) raises the same question again, why so many globals during such an extended period? Maybe I had + loot period, right? Well, but the chances of this starting with the evisc mission and ending with it... astronomically low I would say.

Neah, I don't buy it. Afaik, there has to be another explanation...
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so if you believe that it was the setup, why couldnt you reproduce that? and any hard logs about it or just general perception? otherwise its hard to say something about it...
 
Me Really Never said:
so if you believe that it was the setup, why couldnt you reproduce that? and any hard logs about it or just general perception? otherwise its hard to say something about it...
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I have no logs, and this weakens my argument, I do realize that. :/
However, as I didn't hunt anything else, didn't buy or sell any gear only sold the loot and bought new ammo until the mission was over - and still had the same amount of peds on my card... Only problem now is, can't tell how much of it was due to the MU and how high exactly was the TT return. But well, the ordinary loot on small evisc (lvl1-lvl2) in 2013/2014 - it was a pretty average mob MU-wise as much as I recall.

And why couldn't I replicate this on a different mob? Well your guess is as good as mine...
I tink Joat would have an opinion about that and maybe he's right...

Alternative take - it could be that small evisc is somehow different from every other mob (relatively low HP, very high regen, relatively high damage). To see what exactly happens game mechanic-wise u can look at http://eldslott.org/entropia/ - and it seems to be quite different indeed. Is this difference big enough to affect returns... :dunno:
 
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Fifth said:
No ESI's, no items with high MU, nothing out of the ordinary. The frequency of globals seemed to be lower than some other avas in the spawn were getting right next to me (this lucker bastard fluske for example lol)... but as I don't know their dps (and thus peds spent per h), lets say it was the same for me as for anyone else.

Or, lets rather try it from another angle. Suppose i got unusually high amount of globals. This happening over 10k kills (kills not points) raises the same question again, why so many globals during such an extended period? Maybe I had + loot period, right? Well, but the chances of this starting with the evisc mission and ending with it... astronomically low I would say.

Neah, I don't buy it. Afaik, there has to be another explanation...
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There is another "mechanism" at work here (its not code technically).

When you hunt near other avatars, i.e. are in direct competition, you can get a ped-leeching effect which is technically luck based (as it isn't methodologically repeatable) but is more to do with timings & synergy between hunters.

It's really hard to explain... this is where a hunters' "feel" comes into play.

An example of mine, I was hunting Ambul and Koter happened to be sitting around, dumping a fair rate of PEDs into them. Suddenly, I started lighting up on globals (no uber HOFs, just a very fast rate, at one point 3 in a row) and this continued until he left the area. I was in effect taking his cash.

It must be said, this usually happens in reverse - if you can dominate someone DPS-wise, you have a higher frequency of loot events, and therefore a higher frequency of globals which may infer a higher % composition of looting events being a global.

It could be either scenario with the m4 you experienced.
 
Aio said:
There is another "mechanism" at work here (its not code technically).

When you hunt near other avatars, i.e. are in direct competition, you can get a ped-leeching effect which is technically luck based (as it isn't methodologically repeatable) but is more to do with timings & synergy between hunters.

It's really hard to explain... this is where a hunters' "feel" comes into play.

An example of mine, I was hunting Ambul and Koter happened to be sitting around, dumping a fair rate of PEDs into them. Suddenly, I started lighting up on globals (no uber HOFs, just a very fast rate, at one point 3 in a row) and this continued until he left the area. I was in effect taking his cash.

It must be said, this usually happens in reverse - if you can dominate someone DPS-wise, you have a higher frequency of loot events, and therefore a higher frequency of globals which may infer a higher % composition of looting events being a global.

It could be eitherscenario with the m4 you experienced.
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Yep, I've known about this theory a long time and I do believe it's very close to the truth. Even thou we don't know the exact mechanic behind it, there seems to something at work indeed. It's a multiplayer game afterall...

Only problem with this, if higher dps leeches from everyone else then fluske (for example) with his SIF-A or SIF-O (we talked about our gear, just don't remember the exact details, sry) and most likely mod evil slapped on it... should have taken my loot (and not the other way around). There was other hunters in the spawn as well with crazy high dps.
Then again, there was also lots of players with same or lower dps than me.

No clear-cut difference, it seems but as we don't know how exactly the multiplayer-loot works, it seems to be at least a credible explanation, better than no explanation at all.. :)
 
Fifth said:
Yep, I've known about this theory a long time and I do believe it's very close to the truth. Even thou we don't know the exact mechanic behind it, there seems to something at work indeed. It's a multiplayer game afterall...

Only problem with this, if higher dps leeches from everyone else then fluske (for example) with his SIF-A or SIF-O (we talked about our gear, just don't remember the exact details, sry) and most likely mod evil slapped on it... should have taken my loot (and not the other way around). There was other hunters in the spawn as well with crazy high dps.
Then again, there was also lots of players with same or lower dps than me.

No clear-cut difference, it seems but as we don't know how exactly the multiplayer-loot works, it seems to be at least a credible explanation, better than no explanation at all.. :)
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As I said, it seems to be somewhat multi-directional, but I still haven't figured out this yet. It's still definitely a safer bet to aim for as high DPP & DPS as possible...
 
Actually to this, I think it's more of that you can pick up your own peds from the loot pool. So this is just someone else picking up what you dumped into it. No proof (except for my data suggesting this), just speculative.
 
Aio said:
As I said, it seems to be somewhat multi-directional, but I still haven't figured out this yet. It's still definitely a safer bet to aim for as high DPP & DPS as possible...
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Yes, this.
 
I will offer the best I got concerning this:

In my mind Loot on a given mob is contained in a list.(the loot pool or some fraction of it)
This list is essentially a grid. To make things simple imagine a grid of 100 squares (100 mobs, a mob spawn)
You and the other players in the area are effectively playing a form of multiplayer Minesweeper, except in this case your trying to find the mine not avoid it.

Now we know, about 95 of those squares are no good (regular loots and frags)
Payers killing faster will uncover more squares faster... but then we know 95% of them are no good. And this is why it can be seen to work both ways.

Now, of course, MA likes to switch the lists on us too (waves being an obvious example)

Fun fact: In software coding Lists are considered DYNAMIC! ;)
 
atomicstorm said:
Actually to this, I think it's more of that you can pick up your own peds from the loot pool. So this is just someone else picking up what you dumped into it. No proof (except for my data suggesting this), just speculative.
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OK, after thinking it over I came up with a new, "combined explanation".

It starts with specifics of the evisc - high regen means you can't use small finisher on it (just go try it, the game will explain it to you better than 100 words). This leaves only 2 options: 1) relatively big finisher (close to your main weapon) or 2) no finisher at all (works best with fast, low-dmg-per-shot weapons).
As a result, everyone is bleeding overkill-peds, an effect magnified even more due to the low HP of the mob.
As usual, some setups bleed more peds than others, Maddox IV probably less than most other setups (or even, less than any other setup?)

OK, now, where do those peds go?
Suppose the extra peds spent for an overkill (and for regen too, maybe?) will go straight to the collective lootpool, for everyone to grab.

I like that one, seems pretty believable. Too bad we can't prove any of this...
 
Fifth said:
OK, after thinking it over I came up with a new, "combined explanation".

It starts with specifics of the evisc - high regen means you can't use small finisher on it (just go try it, the game will explain it to you better than 100 words). This leaves only 2 options: 1) relatively big finisher (close to your main weapon) or 2) no finisher at all (works best with fast, low-dmg-per-shot weapons).
As a result, everyone is bleeding overkill-peds, an effect magnified even more due to the low HP of the mob.
As usual, some setups bleed more peds than others, Maddox IV probably less than most other setups (or even, less than any other setup?)

OK, now, where do those peds go?
Suppose the extra peds spent for an overkill (and for regen too, maybe?) will go straight to the collective lootpool, for everyone to grab.

I like that one, seems pretty believable. Too bad we can't prove any of this...
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Nope, it just isn't worth it either. You can solve it by playing smart.
 
If you have a certain outcome on one mob type and maturity, and want to use same set up
on another mob and have same outcome, that new mob needs to have exact same stats, imo.

To do a little analogy: If you are a carpenter and use 2" nails for a certain construction,
you can't use that nail on next construction if it requires 4" nails.
But you can use a 4" nail on first construction, just that it will be "overpowered" and far from
perfect. ;)
I.e: use right stuff for specific target.

When it comes to "competition" in a area imo its due to we interact with same spawn control.
These spawn controllers are targets for peaks in loot system, system increase and decrease
values all over the map in a certain pattern and time.
Most probably is it that the one with optimal values (set ups, avatar progression, and so
on) who get best loot from that controller.
A area could have mobs from several controllers. These spawns are either per point or
per zone (just a guess though, but a zone could be a s***load of points, if they haven't managed
to control spawns "randomly" within a zone).
This is how a LA works too.
Now, some thoughts about this:
They could have several controllers in a certain area where one of them just handles one single
spawned mob, which is the extra high multiplier. Doubt it though.

I don't see max DPS and DPP as most important, since I do have several set ups that works
with the target, and they are for sure not fast and/or cheap to use, but they work.
In a way, I could agree that DPS and DPP are most important though, but rather *right*
value than highest possible. ;)
 
San said:
SYes, anyone can profit. But not everyone. The fine distinction between these two words does not exist in all languages (e.g. German), according to Sapir-Whorf this causes difficulty in understanding.
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Hmm. :scratch2:

Jeder kann Gewinn machen, aber nicht alle auf einmal. (Disclaimer: whatever little knowledge of German I have, came from a book printed in 1942, so it might be dated)

Sapir-Whorf is overrated. All functioning languages have sufficient apparatus for Formal Logic 101. Now, redundancies, weasel words and such are indeed different. In particular, most Indo-European languages have some weird shit around sequential counting, keeping of time and meaning of 'next' and variations thereof. That's the legacy of our semi-nomadic past, and it's gradually disappearing. To my knowledge, no living Indo-European language has an equivalent of Lating quotienscumque.
 
Fifth said:
OIt starts with specifics of the evisc - high regen means you can't use small finisher on it (just go try it, the game will explain it to you better than 100 words). This leaves only 2 options: 1) relatively big finisher (close to your main weapon) or 2) no finisher at all (works best with fast, low-dmg-per-shot weapons).
Click to expand...

Be it 3) or 2a), but a well-organized team can save a lot of overkill. 2x 67 rpm guns are as good as one 134 rpm would be if it existed.
 
Haruto Rat said:
Hmm. :scratch2:

Jeder kann Gewinn machen, aber nicht alle auf einmal. (Disclaimer: whatever little knowledge of German I have, came from a book printed in 1942, so it might be dated)

Sapir-Whorf is overrated. All functioning languages have sufficient apparatus for Formal Logic 101. Now, redundancies, weasel words and such are indeed different. In particular, most Indo-European languages have some weird shit around sequential counting, keeping of time and meaning of 'next' and variations thereof. That's the legacy of our semi-nomadic past, and it's gradually disappearing. To my knowledge, no living Indo-European language has an equivalent of Lating quotienscumque.
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Dated German is usually better... It got unified spelling in 1901 and "reformed" in 1996. The translation is correct, but it just illustrates how cumbersome it is in this case. The first part remains ambiguous, because "jeder" can mean either "any" or "every". The second part clarifies it with "but not all at once". Yes, all our languages have all the necessary tools, but it happens quite often that one is more concise and to the point than another for expressing the same word-idea. (Interesting how this happens even between related languages of the same stem, btw.) In these cases understanding is not as intuitive and requires more work, which is why I don't think Sapir-Whorf is quite wrong. The theory may be getting on in years a bit and seem simplistic. However, just look at the efforts at deliberate reduction of degrees of freedom of thought by the enforcement of political correctness nowadays. They give it a renaissance which would make Orwell turn in his grave.

Umm, how did we get here... Ah, the lure of profit and how it causes understanding to short-circuit. These advertising guys know exactly how it works and it takes quite an education to keep afloat in this deluge.
 
Haruto Rat said:
Be it 3) or 2a), but a well-organized team can save a lot of overkill. 2x 67 rpm guns are as good as one 134 rpm would be if it existed.
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Yep. Nothing beats a well oiled team where ppl can understand each other without words. I know this from my own experience... :yup:
But, ahem, good teammates are so damn hard to find in your own timezone... :/


San said:
Dated German is usually better... It got unified spelling in 1901 and "reformed" in 1996. The translation is correct, but it just illustrates how cumbersome it is in this case. The first part remains ambiguous, because "jeder" can mean either "any" or "every". The second part clarifies it with "but not all at once". Yes, all our languages have all the necessary tools, but it happens quite often that one is more concise and to the point than another for expressing the same word-idea. (Interesting how this happens even between related languages of the same stem, btw.) In these cases understanding is not as intuitive and requires more work, which is why I don't think Sapir-Whorf is quite wrong. The theory may be getting on in years a bit and seem simplistic. However, just look at the efforts at deliberate reduction of degrees of freedom of thought by the enforcement of political correctness nowadays. They give it a renaissance which would make Orwell turn in his grave.
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Agreed. Orwell would be bewildered how easily the western society can be manipulated today. There's no secret really, it's the good old brute force tactic and it goes like this:
  • Buy 90% media channels (TV, social media, Hollywood, etc)
  • Spam whatever ideology you want to spread 24/7
  • As the majority of people don't have the time nor capabilities for independent critical thinking they will quickly assimilate those ideas as their own
  • Once the majority has been processed they start giving each other positive feedback on those ideas, and
  • They will also suppress any different ideas in the society, acting as de facto thought-police force. Which is 100% "1984" ofc...
There's actually nothing too clever or overly complicated in there and it works like charm. The most bewildering part is how the same mega-factory of ideology also spreads belief that being independent and rebellious and "swimming against the stream" is good and fancy. Some inside joke maybe, or maybe it's meant to work as a vaccine against those who might actually want to fight the system someday... but I digress, sry for offtop
 
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I forgot to ask people one thing: Do you see Target evaded attack as a total loss?
Imo, it isn't.
 
Sample sizes really aren't big enough to reflect that occasional "big loot" that mobs drop...

my returns without the big hofs in both hunting and mining settles around 94-95% TT.

Where my returns exceed that is when the big hofs take place.. i.e. over 10k mining indoors or 500+ ped loot on a 2 ped mob or 1k loot on 4 ped mob.

This is just my personal experience though.
 
Rocket192 said:
Sample sizes really aren't big enough to reflect that occasional "big loot" that mobs drop...
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Ah, so 500-700 ped (and even 5,000 ped) cycled on some of the smallest mobs possible is not enough to gauge a decent "average" return in your opinion.

Got it.

Even counting my recent 21 ped maff puny global, my long-term TT results on them are far below any other mob I hunt.
 
JohnCapital said:
Ah, so 500-700 ped (and even 5,000 ped) cycled on some of the smallest mobs possible is not enough to gauge a decent "average" return in your opinion.

Got it.

Even counting my recent 21 ped maff puny global, my long-term TT results on them are far below any other mob I hunt.
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because its puny... ive said it i think even in this thread already and i say it again. calculate your average overkill on punys (low hp). if you overkill for only 2 damage on average on a 10 hp mob that means 20% overkill. and 10% on a 20 hp mob. if you overkill 10 damage on a 300 hp mob its just 3.3%.
before ND nerfed the crabs i were hunting them for 15 hours a day for a month with kinetic ten or adj mk2 and i cycled around 140k peds on them resulting in roughly 108% tt return. i may have overkilled around 30 hp per mob but they had 6500 hp. so thats less than 0,5%.
same rules apply for any other mob i have hunted so far.
 
Me Really Never said:
because its puny... ive said it i think even in this thread already and i say it again. calculate your average overkill on punys (low hp)....
same rules apply for any other mob i have hunted so far.
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Guess you missed this post:

Xen said:
Have you done a test like this, or just regurgitating what you've heard?

I once killed over 10,000 100 health mobs with a Slugstorm + Dante and got over 90% tt returns.

Go do a test like that and get back to us.
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JohnCapital said:
Guess you missed this post:
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thats nice but those 2 things have nothing in common. one thing is bad return due to overkill and the other is okay return due to a mechanism which makes up for bad eco. i say it again: overkill is NOT returned in loot. and yes ive oneshot hundreds of mobs with double or tripple their hp over several thousand kills (the little robots on cyrene for the badges with a big gun) and the loot was exactly the same as i would expect it to be without any or just very little overkill. if you still dont believe facts, do it urself. grab a 100 damage gun and go kill punys and show me your 90% tt return after a few k kills. prove it. if you cant do it i call bullshit on all this fucking shit the people are spreading.
 
Me Really Never said:
thats nice but those 2 things have nothing in common. one thing is bad return due to overkill and the other is okay return due to a mechanism which makes up for bad eco. i say it again: overkill is NOT returned in loot. and yes ive oneshot hundreds of mobs with double or tripple their hp over several thousand kills (the little robots on cyrene for the badges with a big gun) and the loot was exactly the same as i would expect it to be without any or just very little overkill. if you still dont believe facts, do it urself. grab a 100 damage gun and go kill punys and show me your 90% tt return after a few k kills. prove it. if you cant do it i call bullshit on all this fucking shit the people are spreading.
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OR go to an aakas1 key (solo or team) and shoot everything with explosive vrex1000 or a highest dmg weapon you can find.. then let me know when you're in the fetal position and crying. That way I can go in and hunt smart/appropriately and pick up all those peds pissed away because you didn't want to listen to those who have done many tests and offered to help.

Also, 90% tt is nothing to brag about. It's actually telling you something is wrong.
 
Me Really Never said:
i say it again: overkill is NOT returned in loot. ...if you still dont believe facts, do it urself.
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Oh, you mean like when I did this test doing opalo +E15 on foul youngs? (Popfuzz comes on later in the thread, talking about his extended version of the test and even he said there was something odd happening that didn't match with "high DPP is all that matters"

Well, too be fair, that test is more of a "excess low DPP" then high overkill.

However, lets get back to this thread.

Try this: Find a low power hunting combo more eco than tt pistol+ZX amp & finisher that complete n00bs can use. And I mean a true hunting setup. (L) weapons no longer available or unique 10DPP axes that you'll never be able to buy don't count.
 
as i already said and as u mentioned correctly: high overkill is NOT the same as low dpp. everyone already knows that low dpp gets more loot on average. though not enough to make up for the bad eco in the first place. these 2 concepts are totally different and have nothing in common.
and i even say it one more time. yes, the tt pistol + zinkadus is very eco, BUT if you still do 20% overkill it just fucking doesnt matter. just hunt mobs with 50-100 hp. those mobs can be hunted by every noob as well with tt pistol and no real armor. maybe not on caly creatures as those tend to hit harder than on other planets but caly sux anyway.
for example you can easily kill 80 hp qaffaz or 100 hp sunjoq on toulan with tt pistol and zx and use a tt pistol as finisher or even a hk or any other 4 max dmg weapon and you only do about 2% overkill. your results will improve ridiculously compared to punys. but keep in mind you will need a bigger bankroll for these. but 200-400 ped should be fine i guess. you can even swunt the qaffaz quite easily with an adj aeglic or something similar. when you wait a little to heal inbetween mobs its basically impossible to lose money...
 
Me Really Never said:
if you still do 20% overkill it just fucking doesnt matter.
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Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing.
tt pistol+ZX = 7 dmg. (5.25 avg./shot)
tt knife finisher = 5 dmg. (3.75 avg./shot)

And you're saying this is overkill on 20 & 40 hp mobs?

So your advice to everyone is to never hunt anything under 100 health no matter what eco you got?

So your answer to the title of my thread "is eco ALL you need?" your answer is "No". :)
 
if you expect to get any kind of positive return, then yes, i wouldnt hunt anything under 100 hp unless it has enough valuabe loot to make up for that deficit. for example a year ago you could hunt tabtab on toulan for easy profit even though they are 10 hp. they dropped average MU of +-150% on every mob. was easy profit even for low hunter. now they adjusted the drop rate a little so its not as profitable anymore. though they still drop the salafa g1 which is far superior to tt pistol eco wise. with zx it has 3,017 dpp and you can use it as finisher as its a 4 max dmg pistol. you could sustain quite long on those as they still have more MU than caly punys due to extractors and hides.
 
Me Really Never said:
if you expect to get any kind of positive return, then yes, i wouldnt hunt anything under 100 hp unless it has enough valuabe loot to make up for that deficit. for example a year ago you could hunt tabtab on toulan for easy profit even though they are 10 hp. they dropped average MU of +-150% on every mob. was easy profit even for low hunter. now they adjusted the drop rate a little so its not as profitable anymore. though they still drop the salafa g1 which is far superior to tt pistol eco wise. with zx it has 3,017 dpp and you can use it as finisher as its a 4 max dmg pistol. you could sustain quite long on those as they still have more MU than caly punys due to extractors and hides.
Click to expand...

Maff punies have more MU on avg than any other low health mob I've ever found. Ironically, I also had long term TT returns so low it makes even that MU unviable.

Go figure.
 
Actually the answer is yes but the scope of eco is not what shows up on your tracker.

If your weapon setup does 3.41 (like me), but take 1% Def cost then it isn't 3.41. And that number is only relative to loot mechanisms.. if you say overkill is wasted and you average 5% overkill, then it isn't 3.41.. it's 3.24 (guess). And if you discount regen and mob regens 10%, then it's now 2.91 (estimated). But then it becomes 2.91 vs other players who all have same parameters but maybe it Regens more for the guy doing 30dps than 80dps.

Weapon eco is a great start, but eco is just short for economic or in other words efficient... and that covers your overall playstyle.
 
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