Info: Is eco ALL you need? Test

@ Xen, While I am certainly not disputing your findings, and Falagor's info doesnt explain what you saw, but Aio did sort of explain it, and there a couple possible variables at play here making it fuzzy.

Firstly, some of those kills were one shots no? extrapolating this a bit, some were even the "perfect" damage kills.
This could be considered a + eco event, as I'm sure we would all love a perfect 100 damg everytime weapon or similar so we can exactly damge mob its whole hp and one shot kill with perfect efficiency. I would imagine you most definitely profit tt in this scenario. (this is just a thought experiment, i dont necessarily believe that would be a major factor)

Secondly- You stated it was using an unmaxed weapon.. Im not going to dive into this here but I am just highlighting this as a another variable that makes it fuzzy (As I assume most others here are testing normal play style eco using maxed weapons as thats most useful for everyday play)

Thirdly, You were on Cyrene! Now I'm not suggesting anything here and I have 0 data etc, but its certainly possible to entertain the thought that planets other than Calypso just might have a "slightly softer" rake by MA in order to compensate for the lack of mu% and activity on new planets. also to help get players off calypso and give the new planets a fighting chance... just a thought, If I were MA I would consider this..

~008

Stefan 008 Bond said:

Thirdly, You were on Cyrene! Now I'm not suggesting anything here and I have 0 data etc, but its certainly possible to entertain the thought that planets other than Calypso just might have a "slightly softer" rake by MA in order to compensate for the lack of mu% and activity on new planets. also to help get players off calypso and give the new planets a fighting chance... just a thought, If I were MA I would consider this..

~008

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Also key. I mention many times that it's important to consider other participants when you undergo an activity.

However, there are some areas of the universe where there is very, very little activity. When doing tests, it's pretty important to utilise these as they will give a clearer view of the world.

In the long term, in a player vs. MA environment (no other participants changing your variables) you'll get a very static return rate no matter what setup you use...

Aio said:

Also key. I mention many times that it's important to consider other participants when you undergo an activity.

However, there are some areas of the universe where there is very, very little activity. When doing tests, it's pretty important to utilise these as they will give a clearer view of the world.

In the long term, in a player vs. MA environment (no other participants changing your variables) you'll get a very static return rate no matter what setup you use...

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So, if I do another test, should it be on a low population planet or Calypso? Personally, I don't think it matters...

Xen said:

So, if I do another test, should it be on a low population planet or Calypso? Personally, I don't think it matters...

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the population does certainly matter. ive hunted stuff on toulan quite some time ago and was basically alone or maybe 1 or 2 other hunter and i got pretty constant returns (+-10%) on 300 kill runs.
when im on caly and hunt a masshunted mob like kerbs, i got swings of nearly 100% (between 50% and 150%) in 300 kill runs. other mobs where you notice this a lot are atrox for example.
and ive done the 10k cultist 2 times on monria and had quite predictable returns there with a few peaks and cultist are hunted more than the toulan stuff and a lot less than kerbs so it fits.

Me Really Never said:

the population does certainly matter. ive hunted stuff on toulan quite some time ago and was basically alone or maybe 1 or 2 other hunter and i got pretty constant returns (+-10%) on 300 kill runs.
when im on caly and hunt a masshunted mob like kerbs, i got swings of nearly 100% (between 50% and 150%) in 300 kill runs. other mobs where you notice this a lot are atrox for example.
and ive done the 10k cultist 2 times on monria and had quite predictable returns there with a few peaks and cultist are hunted more than the toulan stuff and a lot less than kerbs so it fits.

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So a low population planet gives a more reliable result? I don't want to do the test again and hear excuses.

Xen said:

So a low population planet gives a more reliable result? I don't want to do the test again and hear excuses.

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I dont believe it matters like you say for reasons that I don't want to share. But, to get a good conclusion, you would need to do a test at a much lower level than what you would do OR you would need to cycle a lot of ped 100k or more for a result worth a conclusion.

Xen said:

So a low population planet gives a more reliable result? I don't want to do the test again and hear excuses.

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Actually, I would recommend the opposite. If you do another test, please do it on Calypso. The reason being that if we want to get anywhere, we need to understand the "base" system if you will. It is reasonable enough to suggest the "base mechanic" of how these things work would be found on Calypso.

Other planets may have "unseen filters" at play regarding the planets population, turnover and competition..
moreover, its entirely possible we have different variants of these filters. Such as, I wouldn't suggest Arkadia has the same possible "softer rake" than Toulan would as exmpl (because, why would they, Arkadia does very well for itself at this point, no need for training wheels at this point for them)

Also, as the majority of the player base lives on Calypso it would be most beneficial to start there

I really enjoy everyone sharing their thoughts!

To add, (We kind of got off topic from the OP, sorry John!)

To answer OP:
Of course, eco isn't all you need. I'm not going to say anything anyone posting here doesn't already know but just in case:

I don't know about When you hunt mattering, (as far as time of day, not the problematic wave loots we have that do need to be fixed) but How you hunt sure does.
This goes way beyond eco. Things such as appropriate armor plating setups, efficient combat and non combat healing tools, not hunting sloppily (you cant be always having multiple mobs chewing on you), efficient use of range, using finishers.. and then there is what yo do with your loot when you return ( a whole another set of skills).

On paper, absolutely, eco is of vital importance. in practice, it is one of many moving parts that determine your overall "real eco" This type of eco can only be determined AFTER you hunt.

Real or "active" eco in play was something really fascinating I was beginning to look at toward the end of my hunting mechanics post years ago. Maybe its time to look into that again...

atomicstorm said:

I dont believe it matters like you say for reasons that I don't want to share. But, to get a good conclusion, you would need to do a test at a much lower level than what you would do OR you would need to cycle a lot of ped 100k or more for a result worth a conclusion.

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The number of peds shouldn't matter it's the number of loot events, imo anyway. It's just nickel slots vs dollar slots.

give people a dice and a spreadsheet and you will get alot of senseless theories



nvm....couldn't resist

Nargon said:

give people a dice and a spreadsheet and you will get alot of senseless theories

nvm....couldn't resist

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720 theories I'd assume. =FACT(6)

Maybe all of them are true, and relevant.....smiles

Rick

Nargon said:

give people a dice and a spreadsheet and you will get alot of senseless theories

nvm....couldn't resist

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"give people a dice" apparently refers to RNG (random number generator), right? So if I'm reading this right you are suggesting there's no regularity and no logical rules behind the things we as users can observe. Just a blind irregular chaos, a 100% pure game of chances?

Well, in physics there's currently 3 main "theories of everything" (= theories that try to unify quantum physics and gravity) and we can't even imagine how any of those could be empirically tested. In EU we can at least test our theories, so it would seem we're much closer to having both our feet on the ground than modern physics.

Yes there's myriad of extravagant theories in EU that are based on no empirical evidence whatsoever, and there's bunch of theories that contradict itself and any empirical evidence.

Well, there's similar situation in science as well. Besides 3 "main ones" there's also lots of "fringe theories" with very few supporters, some of them containing obvious errors.
It would seem your advice is just as well suited for the scientific community...

Go tell them, don't be shy!

O.M.G.

Seriously guys?

Y'all have been arguing hunting stats for so long, you don't bother to even look at the test any more do you guys? You just jump straight into arguing about "overkill" "too small sample", etc.

Short version:

I'm hunting 30 health mobs (@2.9 dmg/pec= <10.3pec/kill) using one of the most eco weapons setups you can for that level. A setup ANY player at level 3(THREE) laser hit/dmg can use. Zero armor and zero fap cost. (Newer players can of course expect some armor/fap cost, making returns even worse for them.)

And still getting only at BEST average returns, and OFTEN far worse.

Longer version:
Omegaton M2100A1 (L)+ZX = 3.5-7 dmg @ 0.01632/shot
Castorian Survival EnBlade-B (L) = 2.5-5 dmg @ 0.01200/shot

At 30 health, I shoot it ~5 times, then stab once.
Total cost/kill = 0.0936
(Yes, misses, crits, etc. means this is not exact, but close avg.)

The amount of "overkill" with this setup is as close to minimal as you can get on a long-term basis.

This is a setup ANY player can do. But you all are saying it's not enough.

In essence, you are arguing that beginning players have almost zero chance of getting at least average loot on mobs that are THEIR level. And we wonder why too many new players quit before getting to the depositing stage.








Side note about overkill: I've done my own public tests on overkill (link here) that was eventually retested by other players. Best we could figure at the time was that "some" dynamic compensated for playing at a ridiculously bad eco level, but not good enough to make it worth doing as your long term strategy.

However, if you guys really want to argue overkill on the setup vs health I mentioned above, then there is no hope for new players. Ever. And this game is simply trudging along hoping enough of us "old-school" players continue to depo for years.

Is eco ALL you need?


No.

Fifth said:

"

Go tell them, don't be shy!

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Indeed, If you look closer here, many posts on this thread are not talking about loot theories but loot mechanics.
These things can and have been tested to varying degrees. This is not an effort to "game or exploit: the system, its an effort to understand and how we should play efficiently.

Certain things discussed here such as payback on regen of valid damage being compensated vs overkill on invalid damage done can be tested yourselves quite easily

Similarly the concept of minimum and maximum loots on regular play and the accompanying multipliers can also be tested for yourself.

These aren't theories on how to make a million peds, they are empirical evidence tests of game mechanics we can all see. This is a game that was coded with logic by humans.. even with RNG, there are always going to be predefned set boundaries and parameters, this is what is being discussed here as it pertains to eco hunting returns

~008

JohnCapital said:

This is a setup ANY player can do. But you all are saying it's not enough.

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Bolded the part as to why 2.95 DPP is not enough anymore.

This. Is. A. Competitive. Environment.

If everyone was rocking 2.30 DPP, you'd be rolling in cash.

JohnCapital said:

O.M.G.

Seriously guys?

Y'all have been arguing hunting stats for so long, you don't bother to even look at the test any more do you guys? You just jump straight into arguing about "overkill" "too small sample", etc.

Short version:

I'm hunting 30 health mobs (@2.9 dmg/pec= <10.3pec/kill) using one of the most eco weapons setups you can for that level. A setup ANY player at level 3(THREE) laser hit/dmg can use. Zero armor and zero fap cost. (Newer players can of course expect some armor/fap cost, making returns even worse for them.)

And still getting only at BEST average returns, and OFTEN far worse.

Longer version:
Omegaton M2100A1 (L)+ZX = 3.5-7 dmg @ 0.01632/shot
Castorian Survival EnBlade-B (L) = 2.5-5 dmg @ 0.01200/shot

At 30 health, I shoot it ~5 times, then stab once.
Total cost/kill = 0.0936
(Yes, misses, crits, etc. means this is not exact, but close avg.)

The amount of "overkill" with this setup is as close to minimal as you can get on a long-term basis.

This is a setup ANY player can do. But you all are saying it's not enough.

In essence, you are arguing that beginning players have almost zero chance of getting at least average loot on mobs that are THEIR level. And we wonder why too many new players quit before getting to the depositing stage.








Side note about overkill: I've done my own public tests on overkill (link here) that was eventually retested by other players. Best we could figure at the time was that "some" dynamic compensated for playing at a ridiculously bad eco level, but not good enough to make it worth doing as your long term strategy.

However, if you guys really want to argue overkill on the setup vs health I mentioned above, then there is no hope for new players. Ever. And this game is simply trudging along hoping enough of us "old-school" players continue to depo for years.

Click to expand...

you think you need to kill 30 hp mobs? why? what is a low level player? someone who did put in 100 bucks and just started can still hunt 100-300 hp low level low damage mobs. especially on other planets (caly sux).

JohnCapital said:

Y'all have been arguing hunting stats for so long, you don't bother to even look at the test any more do you guys? You just jump straight into arguing about "overkill" "too small sample", etc.

However, if you guys really want to argue overkill on the setup vs health I mentioned above, then there is no hope for new players. Ever. And this game is simply trudging along hoping enough of us "old-school" players continue to depo for years.

Click to expand...

Interesting data and yes some replies are just some defending their pet theories.
Problem is the wide range of play styles, and budgets, coupled with a few short memories.

Players just joining EU have no skills so everything can hit newbies but rarely seem to hit back.
But most will assume that getting more game experience(skills) will reverse that situation.
As a result newbies will use any weapon they get or loot just to skill up with.
But OP was going for something after this period of time, that the average player can handle skill-wise, within small budget, and retain some fun factors.

Anyways curious if OP only used UA during tests, or was Cells/BLP ammo used?
Also does the OP have any current control data for same tests (no amps/enhancers/rings/armor/fap)??

3rd PS. I did read "vast majority of these hunts were using a tt pistol+ZX amp and either unamped pistol or tt knife as finisher" but if it's mixed even a little its not scientific control data.



PS. imo 90% TT returns is currently on target for EU's puny-small mobs.
PSS. Reminder newbies have No MU on loot because their budget is small and really-really tiny stacks to sell.

Mega said:

Is eco ALL you need?


No.

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tell me why not

Put simply, there are benefits from hunting small mobs, but there are reasons why you are unlikely to get high tt returns on them in my opinion.
Apart from other reasons mentioned, I have a theory I've not seen elsewhere that a player's high multiplier chance goes down as he/she kills more of a particular mob (or as skills increase way beyond a mob level?). Having killed several hundred thousand carabok, I think it IS statistically relevent potentially that I used to need to kill about 10k+ per global, but now need something over 20k/25k it would seem. The lower multipliers seemed to stay regular...

jetsina said:

Put simply, there are benefits from hunting small mobs, but there are reasons why you are unlikely to get high tt returns on them in my opinion.
Apart from other reasons mentioned, I have a theory I've not seen elsewhere that a player's high multiplier chance goes down as he/she kills more of a particular mob (or as skills increase way beyond a mob level?). Having killed several hundred thousand carabok, I think it IS statistically relevent potentially that I used to need to kill about 10k+ per global, but now need something over 20k/25k it would seem. The lower multipliers seemed to stay regular...

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that would mean a global chance of 0,01% or 0,02%. doesnt seem like a huge difference and is easily explained by variance.

Me Really Never said:

that would mean a global chance of 0,01% or 0,02%. doesnt seem like a huge difference and is easily explained by variance.

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It's not only the raw variance but also the progression. I was killing carabok before the global thresholds were introduced and the decline has been close to a line or slight curve. It's interesting that the top carabokers on tracker now that they are tracked are bunched together - maybe we are all at the stage where an extra global is so much harder to get now. Ofc people move up to higher mobs, yes, but that could also be return-related, including the high multis. The distribution might be chance too, but you can add in the chances of chance to arrive at a probability of a probability.
I also suggest it is for high multipliers, which is why it will be hard to see in global figures for bigger mobs which get killed much less by each individual (even in events...). The occurance of the low multis is pretty much as I would expect (like the distribution of event stars etc).

jetsina said:

It's not only the raw variance but also the progression. I was killing carabok before the global thresholds were introduced and the decline has been close to a line or slight curve. It's interesting that the top carabokers on tracker now that they are tracked are bunched together - maybe we are all at the stage where an extra global is so much harder to get now. Ofc people move up to higher mobs, yes, but that could also be return-related, including the high multis. The distribution might be chance too, but you can add in the chances of chance to arrive at a probability of a probability.
I also suggest it is for high multipliers, which is why it will be hard to see in global figures for bigger mobs which get killed much less by each individual (even in events...). The occurance of the low multis is pretty much as I would expect (like the distribution of event stars etc).

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well the problem is to get anywhere near statistically relevant information you would need a few hundred if not thousand events to occur. at 0,01 or 0,02% chance that would mean killing 10-20 million caraboks...anything else is statistically not relevant. when you look at other mobs, like kerbs, then they seem very constant in their global threshold. or other mobs with repeatable iron mission. they allways global more or less the same.

Alina said:

tell me why not

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JohnCapital said:

O.M.G.

Seriously guys?

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John, with all due respect, a number of us answered your post directly. You see nothing wrong with hunting a 30 hp mob when the lowest damage wep you are using is 2.5-5? That is 8-16% of the mobs total hp

I am a little confused at what you are trying to do here. Are you trying to recreate the experience of being a noob in EU or are you playing as the veteran you are, and trying to be as eco as possible on low cost mobs to see if you can get high tt% returns?

If its the first, then its essentially a totally different discussion (one where you may have a point) about a new players sustainability on puny mobs. There are counter points here about how its possibly compensated by increased skill gains as well as mu% (you mention nothing on mu% returns here and i know most puny have big mu% items and quest loot)

If it's the second, which I am assuming it is, your a veteran. Not only are you seriously underestimating overkill in the form of the abnormally large % of the mobs overall hp you are accidentally over-damaging, you aren't even using the most appropriate gear!

Where is your 2-3 max dmg wep??? I understand these are not avail from the tt (and maybe should be) but again your a vet, you should (and prob do ) know about the existence of sub 5 dmg weapons. Many other vets have come onto this post to relay similar messg that we tend to steer clear of really low hp mobs and 2 pec crafting clicks..

Do you have the actual # of mobs that you killed in those runs? If you do we could look at your post hunt eco..

Additionally, there is plenty to be acknowledged about possible reasons why MA wouldn't want good or even avg tt returns on the lowest/easiest/cheapest mobs to kill in game. Reasonable enough to consider they compensate in other ways. So as others have said, please test on a traditional "normal" mob (70-300hp) with a similar high eco setup and defense costs, I'm fairly confident you will attain the 97% you seek

~008

Entropia is a skill based game (whether you believe it or not). This is not exclusive to the fact that there are skills in the game. Skill is a concept based on information and knowledge. If you play poorly (overkill, major defensive decay, trying to manufacture large hofs through condition crafting) without said knowledge, you are setup to lose. Not because of decay but all the unnecessary amount of peds you dump into the loot pool for the skilled grinders... although I have some concerns about resource caps manipulators (dianthus and pyrite hoarders, I'm looking at you).

If you pay poorly, your returns will be below average except the times you find your hof. If you play smart, reasonable to your budget, and realize that going after tt is not wise, you will do okay and when you run across your big hof, you will be doing very well.

We need to realize that 90% is not base returns. Your loot is not and has never been 10% taxed. Mindark and planet partners make their money on turnover, in the form of decay. High decay activities yield revenue for those entities both as a fraction from players originating on the planet and activity on said planet. Someone with a 99% return is either playing very well and/or having little decay. Someone with a 90% return could be doing either/or or none or simply having little turnover.

The power in having good returns is with smart turnover. The power of making peds is with extremely high eco setups or farming markup. But remember, just going after tt is a losing proposition. Be efficient. Mindark said that matters.

Hello!

JohnCapital said:

[...] to expect new players to have to hunt a mob over that many times and not get decent loot kind of shows why so many new players quit.

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The main reason for why new players quit is bad guidance, sadly.

======================

JohnCapital said:

So it seems I'm going to stay in the 92-94% return realm no matter how or what I hunt.

When I see people make long term 97%+ tt returns, all I can do is say "Congratulations. Your results are not typical".

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2.95 is poor eco. there are somewhat cheap options to get close to 3dpp. No one can guarantee tt profit, that is why people should not throw in TT the loot, but sell it for markup so they can break even or maybe profit
94% tt back seems fair for that kind of activity.
My med term test with 2.975 eco says 96+% tt return over 650-700 k ped turnover (over 8-9 months). This resulted in a 25k ped tt loss which hurt, as there was not enough markup to cover that, but I learned an important lesson.

======================

JohnCapital said:

IAs for Rat's comment: Yes, some good MU helped, but we're talking TT returns for this.

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People should ask themselves why certain expensive items are so expensive... TT profit is for those who put some good money in the gear and not for puny hunting, L users and bad eco users. Otherwise what incentive would you have to skill up, to get bigger gun, fap, kill bigger mobs?

======================

Mega said:

Is eco ALL you need?


No.

Click to expand...

Bu in this particular case, where OP is analyzing TT returns from a poor eco setup, this is very important.

======================

Me Really Never said:

dude. i said it. i say it again. take a gun with lots of damage or a sword or whatever pleases you and one shot mobs that have 10 hp. you just need to kill like 10 mobs to see that you NEVER get ANYWHERE NEAR the ammo spend. if that is no evidence for you then im out. if hard evidence isnt enough, nothing is.

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10 mobs in a row = hard evidence... 10 mobs of 10 hp each... see why newbies reading this guys posts is bad for the community? THIS is hard evidence why so many quit - they read advice and "facts" from clueless hunters... and there are many of them, with strong opinions over things they refuse to understand, but come up with own theories after 10 mobs of 10 hp each.

Evey said:

10 mobs in a row = hard evidence... 10 mobs of 10 hp each... see why newbies reading this guys posts is bad for the community? THIS is hard evidence why so many quit - they read advice and "facts" from clueless hunters... and there are many of them, with strong opinions over things they refuse to understand, but come up with own theories after 10 mobs of 10 hp each.

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so. you want to tell me, that when you kill 10 times a 10 hp mob with a gun that costs 50 pec per shot and your return on all 10 mobs is between 1 and 3 pec (average loot on punys) that this is no evidence? how much more do you need? do you want to kill 100.000 of those mobs to see the same outcome? if the result is within the limits of an expected result then u dont need thousands of loot events to confirm it. its easy as that. thats the way it works in science. if you cant come to a conclusion or the data variance is too big then you need lots of loot events to confirm your theory (e.g. average return tt wise)

and just fyi. saying 2,95 dpp is a bad eco is simply false. it depends on the dps also. yes, you can get 2,95 dpp setup for low level hunting (<100 hp) very cheap and (<300 hp) fairly cheap. but if you want to get a 2,95 dpp ranged weapon with 40 dps you need to invest a few k peds. if u want the same with 60 dps you need to invest a few ten k peds. and im not talking bout dmg enhancer here

JohnCapital said:

I suspect, my biggest problem is not what gear I use or what I hunt, but WHEN. Being west coast USA (8 hours behind MA time) seems to be my hugest disadvantage as I can't hunt during "peak" times.

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stop hunting til 'busy time' is here... At the moment, Mayhem is continuing so loot is probably actually better than normal... That will 'normalize' in a bit when that 'event season' is over and the next month or so after the 'leftover loot' from it is cleared out of the pool.

If there's more money in the progressive jackpot the odds of getting it are slightly higher...

Evey said:

Advice to stop hunting during X period and start hunting during Y period - coming from a guy with 4 globals is doing damage to the new players, because it's gibberish, can you please think again before you advise others on how they should hunt? You lack experience big time. Grab a gun and do some damage and test this yourself - and NO, not just 10 mobs!

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bah, tis you who should think. Those of us without massive amount of globals see the trends in + and - more so than the big spenders sometimes... if you hunt puny, or craft ep you will start seeing more of what's going on with the waves and such... It's just a fact, mayhem and big events like that which cause more decay create more peds in teh loot pool... why waste your peds on low lootpool times?