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JohnCapital

JohnCapital

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John Teacher Capital
Been doing some more long term testing, and the results are interesting.

First, what if you do small(puny) mobs with eco setups and virtually no armor/fap cost?
I've hunted quite a few small mobs this year and the results are quite a bit more disappointing than I expected.
===============================================
Feb-May 2016 - Scout bot (30 health) (Z12/Tt pistol/ZX amp)
Spent - 5,178.40
TT Loot - 4,887.16 (94.375%)

Sept. 2016 - Sabakuma(Young/Mature, 20/40 health) (Z12/Tt pistol/ZX amp/TT knife)
Spent - 435.69
TT Loot - 398.83 (91.539%)

Oct. 2016 - Maff punies (20/40 health) (Z12/Tt pistol/ZX amp/TT knife)
Spent - 705.39
TT Loot - 609.10 (86.349%)

Nov. 2016 - Halix(Young/Mature, 30/40 health) (Z12/Tt pistol/ZX amp/TT knife)
Spent - 508.56
TT Loot - 475.27 (93.454%)
===============================================
The vast majority of these hunts were using a tt pistol+ZX amp and either unamped pistol or tt knife as finisher. The TT returns are not amazing at all. And at that low level, you would expect returns to not require 10,000+ ped of hunting to "even out". (A TT pistol+ZX hunt is ~20.08 cost, so these are over many hunts)

Compare those to my year and a half of doing mostly daily mission hunts. Small qty of random mobs scattered all over should have given me very poor overall results, but...

===============================================
Apr 2015 - today - Daily hunting missions (Various mobs/health/feff cave/argo cave) (Various gear, usually ep-52,53,54 cdf(L), LC-55 cdf(L) + A104/imp A105 + philo sword finisher, or Z12/tt pistol/tt knife+zx amp)
Spent - 44,372.9
TT Loot - 41,818.14 (94.242%)
===============================================

And for final comparison, looking at my overall results for the past 5 years:
===============================================
Apr 2011-today - all hunting
Spent - 247,021.58
TT Loot - 227,483.60 (92.09%)

total armor - 3,766.59 (1.524%)
total fap - 1,555.18 (0.629%)
if armor/fap = zero - 94.244%
===============================================

So it seems I'm going to stay in the 92-94% return realm no matter how or what I hunt.

When I see people make long term 97%+ tt returns, all I can do is say "Congratulations. Your results are not typical".

For those planning to reply with the normal "use more eco weapons" and/or "lower your defense cost", please re-read my setups and defense costs. (I'm also pretty sure the defense costs are covering a few fap jobs that sneaked into my hunting logs over the years, so it's actually even lower.)

It would take a HUGE investment to get much better eco & dmg/sec setups, and for some reason, I'm guessing that my playing style won't benefit from it. (Note that when I used ultra eco on small mobs, my returns were actually worse)

I suspect, my biggest problem is not what gear I use or what I hunt, but WHEN. Being west coast USA (8 hours behind MA time) seems to be my hugest disadvantage as I can't hunt during "peak" times.
 
JohnCapital said:
Being west coast USA (8 hours behind MA time) seems to be my hugest disadvantage as I can't hunt during "peak" times.
Click to expand...

This.....

Hunt during high turnover, i.e. lots of people playing. THen more chance of getting a bigger loot....which would get you to that magic 95%+, maybe ;-)


Rgds

Ace
 
also i tend to get very bad tt wise returns on small mobs as well. the % overkill per mob is mostly higher on these. just 3 dmg overkill on a 30 health mob is the same is 30 dmg overkill on a 300 hp mob or 300 dmg overkill on a 3k hp mob. so quite a lot.
lets say the average overkill is 3 hp on those 30 hp mobs that means that you got 10% overkill, thus instead of 10 pec per kill you need 11 pec. thats 10% wasted money. so not really surprising that you got 92-94% tt return. when i grinded mobs in the 600 hp category i had an approx overkill per mob of maybe 6-12 hp. thats just 1%-1.5% wasted on overkill. i managed to get 99,84% tt return on 40k kills with that.
 
Your sample size is to small. You did get almost 95% on a 5k + ped sample but this is to small of a sample also.
 
JohnCapital said:
Been doing some more long term testing, and the results are interesting.

First, what if you do small(puny) mobs with eco setups and virtually no armor/fap cost?
I've hunted quite a few small mobs this year and the results are quite a bit more disappointing than I expected.
===============================================
Feb-May 2016 - Scout bot (30 health) (Z12/Tt pistol/ZX amp)
Spent - 5,178.40
TT Loot - 4,887.16 (94.375%)

Sept. 2016 - Sabakuma(Young/Mature, 20/40 health) (Z12/Tt pistol/ZX amp/TT knife)
Spent - 435.69
TT Loot - 398.83 (91.539%)

Oct. 2016 - Maff punies (20/40 health) (Z12/Tt pistol/ZX amp/TT knife)
Spent - 705.39
TT Loot - 609.10 (86.349%)

Nov. 2016 - Halix(Young/Mature, 30/40 health) (Z12/Tt pistol/ZX amp/TT knife)
Spent - 508.56
TT Loot - 475.27 (93.454%)
===============================================
The vast majority of these hunts were using a tt pistol+ZX amp and either unamped pistol or tt knife as finisher. The TT returns are not amazing at all. And at that low level, you would expect returns to not require 10,000+ ped of hunting to "even out". (A TT pistol+ZX hunt is ~20.08 cost, so these are over many hunts)

Compare those to my year and a half of doing mostly daily mission hunts. Small qty of random mobs scattered all over should have given me very poor overall results, but...

===============================================
Apr 2015 - today - Daily hunting missions (Various mobs/health/feff cave/argo cave) (Various gear, usually ep-52,53,54 cdf(L), LC-55 cdf(L) + A104/imp A105 + philo sword finisher, or Z12/tt pistol/tt knife+zx amp)
Spent - 44,372.9
TT Loot - 41,818.14 (94.242%)
===============================================

And for final comparison, looking at my overall results for the past 5 years:
===============================================
Apr 2011-today - all hunting
Spent - 247,021.58
TT Loot - 227,483.60 (92.09%)

total armor - 3,766.59 (1.524%)
total fap - 1,555.18 (0.629%)
if armor/fap = zero - 94.244%
===============================================

So it seems I'm going to stay in the 92-94% return realm no matter how or what I hunt.

When I see people make long term 97%+ tt returns, all I can do is say "Congratulations. Your results are not typical".

For those planning to reply with the normal "use more eco weapons" and/or "lower your defense cost", please re-read my setups and defense costs. (I'm also pretty sure the defense costs are covering a few fap jobs that sneaked into my hunting logs over the years, so it's actually even lower.)

It would take a HUGE investment to get much better eco & dmg/sec setups, and for some reason, I'm guessing that my playing style won't benefit from it. (Note that when I used ultra eco on small mobs, my returns were actually worse)

I suspect, my biggest problem is not what gear I use or what I hunt, but WHEN. Being west coast USA (8 hours behind MA time) seems to be my hugest disadvantage as I can't hunt during "peak" times.
Click to expand...

Thank you for sharing.
 
Grandmaster said:
Your sample size is to small. You did get almost 95% on a 5k + ped sample but this is to small of a sample also.
Click to expand...

It is this. And i pointed that out in my video in my log... i showed that when I specifically did less than 1k hunts, my return was sub 90%. 5k in 3 months is very low sample size. not giving yourself time to hit multipliers.

You can make the case it shouldn't work that way.. but it does.
 
JohnCapital said:
Feb-May 2016 - Scout bot (30 health) (Z12/Tt pistol/ZX amp)
Spent - 5,178.40
TT Loot - 4,887.16 (94.375%)

(...)

I suspect, my biggest problem is not what gear I use or what I hunt, but WHEN. Being west coast USA (8 hours behind MA time) seems to be my hugest disadvantage as I can't hunt during "peak" times.
Click to expand...

If i remember the size of your stack of Basic Targeting Chip on Cyrene auction right, that alone should have covered most of the deficit.

Off hours may have worse tt returns but they certainly have better MU.
 
I absolutely love the "too small sample" response....shows that Entropia now has become a game where 500$ isn't enough to see decent returns on mobs you can 1 hit kill before you're lvl 10...bravo
 
Grandmaster said:
Your sample size is to small. You did get almost 95% on a 5k + ped sample but this is to small of a sample also.
Click to expand...

atomicstorm said:
It is this. And i pointed that out in my video in my log... i showed that when I specifically did less than 1k hunts, my return was sub 90%. 5k in 3 months is very low sample size. not giving yourself time to hit multipliers.

You can make the case it shouldn't work that way.. but it does.
Click to expand...

Guys, you realize it's 5 kPED on a 11...12 PEC mob, do you? About 45 thousand or so mobs. (My setup is different, so I'm not quite sure what OP's bottomline dpp is)
 
In regards the "too small sample" thing:

Taking the maff punies for example, a 1 amp run is ~20 ped, so 705 ped = 35 runs on them.

Even removing my higher skills, etc. to expect new players to have to hunt a mob over that many times and not get decent loot kind of shows why so many new players quit.

As for Rat's comment: Yes, some good MU helped, but we're talking TT returns for this.
 
Haruto Rat said:
Guys, you realize it's 5 kPED on a 11...12 PEC mob, do you? About 45 thousand or so mobs. (My setup is different, so I'm not quite sure what OP's bottomline dpp is)
Click to expand...

Nope, but I don't know the stability on such a low cost per kill mob other than I know Calypso is generally an unstable environment - to my data.

In theory, if he is doing 500 mob runs, then it should be okay. But you would have to track actual dpp and subtract overkill. Would such a small mob yield lots of overkill?
 
Overkill is the problem, plain and simple.
 
I recommend doing your next test on kerbs :woot:
 
Only one run below 90%, from my point of view this returns are OK.

I do mainly low mobs myself, but not that low, avaoid puny like hell - its simple shit loot :D

There is nothing wrong with your setup and your returns hit the magic 90% average return -- everything above 90% is very good imho.

Thanks for doing the test and sharing.
 
Me Really Never said:
also i tend to get very bad tt wise returns on small mobs as well. the % overkill per mob is mostly higher on these. just 3 dmg overkill on a 30 health mob is the same is 30 dmg overkill on a 300 hp mob or 300 dmg overkill on a 3k hp mob. so quite a lot.
lets say the average overkill is 3 hp on those 30 hp mobs that means that you got 10% overkill, thus instead of 10 pec per kill you need 11 pec. thats 10% wasted money. so not really surprising that you got 92-94% tt return. when i grinded mobs in the 600 hp category i had an approx overkill per mob of maybe 6-12 hp. thats just 1%-1.5% wasted on overkill. i managed to get 99,84% tt return on 40k kills with that.
Click to expand...

It's this ^

John thank you very much for testing and posting, some of us really appreciate these things!
I would echo this sentiment near exactly. the mobs hp is just too low, even 1 hp overkill is going to catch up to you.

I bet you will get the #s you are after if you move up to the 3-500 hp category. (try argos, drones etc)
I fashion myself an eco player and i steer away from puny (under 50 hp) mobs because of this,, i also don't click the explosive 1 bp often because i feel a similar mechanic is in play there (its difft of course but, still)

I have always whole heartedly disagreed with the "you have to kill 10k mobs" crowd,,(although it does help).. my entire EU existence i run on less than 200 ped hunts (over and over) and I do just fine return wise, look me up if you ever want to chat sometime
 
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Thanks for sharing, OP. Are you getting any significant MU in your loots to bump up your return numbers?
 
The results of this test look great - as far as I'm concerned anything over 90% is a good return. I think too many people get hung up on the notion of needing 95% - 100% return in TT value of items to consider the return "good".

How you bridge that gap is really where you separate the men from the boys and how you turn into a profit making avatar.

There's a few things to consider....


  • What about skill gains with that turnover? Skills have a real value attached to them too. Both the value of the skills if you were to have bought them and the value if you are to sell them.
  • What about the loots? Did you just TT everything or did you sell things to players?
  • If you sold loots did you just bulk sell them filling orders or did you sell small qty's on auction or to other players for a higher than average markup?

Also I think you need to hunt things that are slightly higher because you need to allow for the smallest possible loot. There's a minimum loot for every mob (other than a "no looter/fragment") I don't know the exact amount but I'm thinking it's about 5% of the cost to kill based on 3hp/pec. I figure something with like 75 - 100 hp minimum.

If 5% of the cost per kill is under 1 pec the game just counts it as a no looter rather than giving you 1 pec. I've tested this theory with the explosive projectiles lvl 1 bp. Because it's only 2 pec per craft it's very black and white with successes/failures. And I've found that despite having the BP maxed even crafting on qty my return was never as high as crafting with the level 2,3 or 4 bp factoring in for globals and such. My conclusion was that when calculating the regular loot it's random between 5% - 105% and when anything under 50% is less than 1 pec the game would just round down to 0.
 
The "overkill" argument is complete bollocks.

I said once in a thread...."that's why I took-up taming as overkill (if it is a variable), is basically eliminated" for 99% of the tames, especially if wearing taming ring.

In fact I could go further and say you have negative overkill, or more specifically "under-kill" to enable you to loot tameable mob.

Response from the forum that believe overkill matters....."but it doesn't work like that".

LOL......whatever.

Rick
 
RickEngland said:
The "overkill" argument is complete bollocks.

I said once in a thread...."that's why I took-up taming as overkill (if it is a variable), is basically eliminated" for 99% of the tames, especially if wearing taming ring.

In fact I could go further and say you have negative overkill, or more specifically "under-kill" to enable you to loot tameable mob.

Response from the forum that believe overkill matters....."but it doesn't work like that".

LOL......whatever.

Rick
Click to expand...

i have no clue what you are talking. overkill is VERY obvious. just go and take a huge ass gun with 80-100 dmg or something and kill punys. will your loot be higher? not really. as the loot you are getting (the average loot) depends on your dpp and a few other factors, with dpp being biggest factor (apart from the obvious mob hp)
 
Me Really Never said:
i have no clue what you are talking. overkill is VERY obvious. just go and take a huge ass gun with 80-100 dmg or something and kill punys. will your loot be higher? not really. as the loot you are getting (the average loot) depends on your dpp and a few other factors, with dpp being biggest factor (apart from the obvious mob hp)
Click to expand...

If you could loot a mob before you remove all it's HP, do you think then that you would profit? That's how taming works. Tamed mobs give loot just like hunted mobs.

In fact taming is the same as hunting, the only difference is an added step "attempt tame", therefore a successful looting attempt is possible before all the HP of the mob is removed.

If the tame attempt is successful, then you loot the mob before it's HP was knocked completely down to zero.

Additionally to that I've also said the system always records damage done. If the mob has 30 points of damage to kill it, and you hit it 50. The system records 50 damage. Now ok....there could well be a variable that says + or - from the mobs HP you get x loot. Or maybe if you're within those parameters the mob might global. (who knows).

But the argument remains....if you can loot before the HP is removed on a mob (taming), this proves the overkill argument has little merit.

Rick

Ps: I will never forget when iron missions first came in. I was at swamp camp killing baby daiks (youngs), the big boys came in and wanted to get the mission done quick. Guess what, they hoffed a lot on "young" daiks. I was getting drip fed tiny loot using tiny guns. Another reason I do not believe in overkill.

What triggers the loots for those that "do" believe in overkill, is the switch of weapon. Or more specifically the switch of profession....the whole reason why you have shared skills across professions....and the whole reason MA can say it's not gambling. Because you are banking unclaimed skill gain in the other professions. So when you use that other profession you unlock that loot (if MA is in the mood to let you have it...LOL).

Rick
 
Last edited:
RickEngland said:
If you could loot a mob before you remove all it's HP, do you think then that you would profit? That's how taming works. Tamed mobs give loot just like hunted mobs.

In fact taming is the same as hunting, the only difference is an added step "attempt tame", therefore a successful looting attempt is possible before all the HP of the mob is removed.

If the tame attempt is successful, then you loot the mob before it's HP was knocked completely down to zero.

Additionally to that I've also said the system always records damage done. If the mob has 30 points of damage to kill it, and you hit it 50. The system records 50 damage. Now ok....there could well be a variable that says + or - from the mobs HP you get x loot. Or maybe if you're within those parameters the mob might global. (who knows).

But the argument remains....if you can loot before the HP is removed on a mob (taming), this proves the overkill argument has little merit.

Rick
Click to expand...

actually it does not. yes, it records damage done (at least to some degree) but it could just check mob hp <100% before looting (taming) and adjust the loot accordingly. when mob hp =0 it doesnt matter how much more damage has been dealt. and as i said.... its very very very easy to test
 
Me Really Never said:
actually it does not. yes, it records damage done (at least to some degree) but it could just check mob hp <100% before looting (taming) and adjust the loot accordingly. when mob hp =0 it doesnt matter how much more damage has been dealt. and as i said.... its very very very easy to test
Click to expand...

So in essence what you're saying is the house always wins. Because any attempt other than killing a mob "exactly" to the value of it's HP...equals loss.

I'm sorry I fail to accept that, it's lame. Not just from you, but from everyone that argues that point.

Beside overkill is the least of a hunters problems, the damage you get per shot is the most important. MA like to manipulate that a lot. If you gun shoots 30 -60 damage

One hunt you might shoot....35,45,40,35,40,50,35,30,30
Next hunt you might shoot....55,50,45,50,50,55,60,60,55

That will have more of an effect on your loot returns, than any argument about overkill.

Rick
 
dude. i said it. i say it again. take a gun with lots of damage or a sword or whatever pleases you and one shot mobs that have 10 hp. you just need to kill like 10 mobs to see that you NEVER get ANYWHERE NEAR the ammo spend. if that is no evidence for you then im out. if hard evidence isnt enough, nothing is.
 
Me Really Never said:
dude. i said it. i say it again. take a gun with lots of damage or a sword or whatever pleases you and one shot mobs that have 10 hp. you just need to kill like 10 mobs to see that you NEVER get ANYWHERE NEAR the ammo spend. if that is no evidence for you then im out. if hard evidence isnt enough, nothing is.
Click to expand...

I'd agree over a few mobs it wouldn't be wise. However I actually believe that the system will compensate if you killed enough mobs (because the system has a stupidity factor built in...too a point). Hence what I said earlier about hunters using big guns and hoffing on baby mobs. Because they didn't care. The explo effect, used in the hunting grounds....lol.

I wouldn't do it myself mind, but players do. Take that guy that posted 57 global on puny (in recent threads), I wouldn't wear ghost hunting punies either or use the weapon he was using, but the guy got paid....lol.

I'd also agree it's 'probably' sensible to try and use the right weapon for the mob. But we've all at some point gone out in the field with crazy decay guns, or high decay amps, and the system paid us back.

I think we over analysis too much. The key message from me would be look at your ped input per hour, and have a budget that can turn over 6 - 10 hours of that. Bollocks to all that 20K ped bank roll rubbish.

I use these days a 210 unlimited ped whip that takes me about 2 hours to burn taming. That's just 105 ped per hour if I don't use speed ring...(i.e. slow it down). If I've got enough ped to turn 4 - 8 whips, as long as MA don't go on a card cleaning exercise, I can run that pretty well with reasonable low budget.

Same goes for gun if you calculate your cost per hour. It's not the number of kills that matters so much, it's the turnover per hour in the field against your budget.

I deviated from the reply, and also said enough.

Have a good day, good to chat.

Rick

Ps: what makes me smiles is my 210 ped whip is less than 11 clicks of a 20 ped per click explo BP, I know what I'd rather do :)
 
There is indeed a problem with too low mobs and integers/multipliers. In theory, that is solved with 4 digits ammo, in practice that only helps translating the multiplier, but the possible population of multipliers on low mobs is lower. Same as lvl 1 explo bp, as stated already here.
 
Me Really Never said:
dude. i said it. i say it again. take a gun with lots of damage or a sword or whatever pleases you and one shot mobs that have 10 hp. you just need to kill like 10 mobs to see that you NEVER get ANYWHERE NEAR the ammo spend. if that is no evidence for you then im out. if hard evidence isnt enough, nothing is.
Click to expand...

Have you done a test like this, or just regurgitating what you've heard?

I once killed over 10,000 100 health mobs with a Slugstorm + Dante and got over 90% tt returns.

Go do a test like that and get back to us.
 
Xen said:
Have you done a test like this, or just regurgitating what you've heard?

I once killed over 10,000 100 health mobs with a Slugstorm + Dante and got over 90% tt returns.

Go do a test like that and get back to us.
Click to expand...

Excluding crits & misses, average dmg on slug+dante = 99.75. Including, eff damage is 92.44.

Doesn't surprise me too much.

Try doing the same on punies, where your eff dmg is >9x the HP. You will not get 90%.

Finally, it's unwise to do tests on punies as their looting logic is different to regular mobs.

If you want stats, I did the full puny iron challenge with a corro 3 ME, and I was farrr away from 90% (more 60-70%).
 
Xen said:
Have you done a test like this, or just regurgitating what you've heard?

I once killed over 10,000 100 health mobs with a Slugstorm + Dante and got over 90% tt returns.

Go do a test like that and get back to us.
Click to expand...

yes i have done such tests on grinding faction badges on cyrene. i was using a calytrek e.l.m. weapon on all different mobs of the faction dailys, including the small bots. they died after one shot all the time and the return was total bullshit, which doesnt surprise me. but well... there are also people who believe that the earth is flat, despite all the facts so i cant really do much about it.
 
Aio said:
Excluding crits & misses, average dmg on slug+dante = 99.75. Including, eff damage is 92.44.

Doesn't surprise me too much.

Try doing the same on punies, where your eff dmg is >9x the HP. You will not get 90%.

Finally, it's unwise to do tests on punies as their looting logic is different to regular mobs.

If you want stats, I did the full puny iron challenge with a corro 3 ME, and I was farrr away from 90% (more 60-70%).
Click to expand...

Actually, they were Imperium Pilot Target Dummys, 110 health. Tons of overkill. Many times the mob required a 2nd shot that was similar to killing a puny considering the health left.

A test just on punies with a big weapon is probably too extreme.
 
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