Which effect do you believe have teleporters on our entropian economy ?

Which effect do you believe have teleporters on our entropian economy ?

  • Teleporters weaken the economy

    Votes: 11 19.3%
  • Teleporters strengthen the economy

    Votes: 46 80.7%

  • Total voters
    57
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John Black Knight
Back in mankinds medieval economic history when the world was still 'huge' and products from far away countries would come over long trade routes at high value.
Goods became cheaper over time as we gathered the ability to cross distances faster and more efficient as well as generating larger supplies.
To the point were in our modern world countries set import/export taxes to influence the ability to compete on the global market as some products from local production would have no chance of competing with imports from low wage countries.
We have reached a point in time were we try to generate 'distance' between local economies through laws and taxes to sustain our personal wealth based on a growing economy.

With this in mind and remembering how big entropia used to be when there where less teleporters, offering opportunities for trade, social interaction, helping one another with supplies and sales and how 'global' it has become in current days with teleporters and auctions making everything available everywhere allowing everyone to compete everywhere with local economies struggling to compete with the 'central hub' and overproduction killing markups of most materials as well as items...

Do you think that the teleporter system strenghtens or weakens our entropian economy ?


PS:
Keep in mind this poll is not about wether you like teleporters or like their convenience, this poll is about your opinion on the economic consequences. Above i showed up the negatives that result from globalisation - TP's create a bigger market which leads to more competition and overproduction/pricedumping which in turn crashes markups and weakens the economy - the question is if you think that there is other factors provided through the better connectivity between remote places that make up for the negatives or even surpass them.
 
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Strengthen.

Less Teleporters = more work for Calypso Rescue Team.
 
TP runs were the most exciting thing when I first joined, all the danger and peril, meeting new friends, following maps. It was fab.

Unfortunately humans are lazy, choosing convenience and globalisation to fulfill needs as quickly and effortlessly as possible will always be high up the agenda. The sharing of ideas, knowledge, ideals and norms could be classed as a great benefit, but that is the real world, in game we do that anyway over sources like this.

The trouble with a game is the more convenience you add, the more of the game you take away. Eventually you could just skip the lot and put your ped in the entropia slot machine. The question is finding the balance between ease of use, and a truly immersive game where you can actually lose yourself in a different universe for a little while.

Teleports are a prime example of this. They bypass great swathes of the game, with the sole purpose of convenience. The pros are saved time and reduced frustration, the costs being directly to the economy as international goods do not fetch a premium price and we miss out on many of the great aspects of this game.

We do also have some very quick vehicles in game, which are a happy medium imo.
 
if you want to have stronger markets, remove the auction house completely. the economy would become a lot stronger immediately.
 
If more walking = less deposits, no teleporters = weaker economy
 
Strengthen heavily, much less time wasting.

Now implement this.

Cheers
 
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if you want to have stronger markets, remove the auction house completely. the economy would become a lot stronger immediately.

I agree about the auction house, thought for the simplicity of the poll this one is about teleporters only atm and to value the benfits of more convenience and connectivity in regards to the economy against the negatives of more competition and pricedumping/overproduction.
 
I agree about the auction house, thought for the simplicity of the poll this one is about teleporters only atm and to value the benfits of more convenience and connectivity in regards to the economy against the negatives of more competition and pricedumping/overproduction.

with removal of tps you wouldnt really deny overproduction though. as there are like 3 or 4 different "basic" sets of loot. so 95% of the loot would still be the same. and the price dumping just exists because everyone undercuts everyone else in auction. you wanne end price dumping then u need to end the auction house. or change the whole looting system and let every mob drop less different items to increase the variety of mobs needed to be killed to gather all different mats.
 
I'm not voting on this because I can make arguments for both sides.
 
I don't think anyone here is suggesting a complete removal of TP's, more a look at do we need so many and should we introduce more or not.

I personally would like to see some rationalisation
Do places such as PA and Twins really need 2 each are we really so lazy we cant walk a few metres ?
same for the firebases on Ark, why 2 in close proximity why not 1 located between them.
Yet other places can still be really remote from a TP

So I have voted for a reduction but only in part.

Tbh it is the combination of TPs and vehicles that has made us all lazy, given us membership of the 'I want it, and I want it now brigade'.
We are not kids, this game is supposed to be a reflection of life in many ways, it has all the trappings yet you seem to want none of the inconveniences. Be careful what you wish for.

If we look at TP's in isolation from other transportation, MF chips etc then we are actually living in cloud cuckoo land, for any transport system and economy has to be looked at as a whole.
If we homogenise the transport systems (TP's everywhere) including between planets, then we also remove the very differences that give the planets a separate economy. If every planet suddenly becomes part of a single economy then why would we travel at all. Why would we trade other than in our home town. If there is no challenge trying to get right price (buying and selling) then how boring that would be. All hunt loots would be same price all crafted goods same price
Hell scrap it all, bring in more BP's like the EP and we can all park in front of a craft terminal set to auto click and go down the pub.

Less availability of easy transport TP/MF/vehicles for new players would as I have said elsewhere, encourage player cooperation, it would help players to get to know the planet before rushing around to touch upon maybe 10% and then claim they are bored, instead they could get a sense of real achievement if they unlock the right to purchase first vehicles (land based only) 2nd unlock (planet side flying vehicles) and 3rd space.
Too many players are lost within weeks because they are generally these days left on their own. When we had to seek out TP's without vehicles etc new and old players worked together. Far more than the knowledge of how to get to a tp was imparted in these team efforts.

From that co-operation we learned much about the game, made friends and understood far more about the planets we live on
I therefore believe that vehicles are a far greater blight on this game than TP's
Together they make us simply lazy

“Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty… I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

If you want to enjoy this game to the full then we all need to accept we also need to put some effort in. Time spent learning is not time wasted.
On the other hand if you just want to get from A to B quick to kill stuff try a platform game, if you just want to trade/craft to make ped uninterrupted go to a casino. This game is neither.
Let's celebrate it's diversity, it's problems, it's ability to offer different things to each of us. Let us not turn it into yet another bland environment that simply facilitates button pushing and purely repetitive tasks.

Simply put there is no right way or wrong way, but as adults we should at least show maturity and stop behaving like 5 year olds and accept that we are all entitled to play it as we see fit. Mind Arks job is therefore to make it appeal to as many player types as possible, no one group of players should take preference over any other.
 
with removal of tps you wouldnt really deny overproduction though. as there are like 3 or 4 different "basic" sets of loot. so 95% of the loot would still be the same. and the price dumping just exists because everyone undercuts everyone else in auction. you wanne end price dumping then u need to end the auction house. or change the whole looting system and let every mob drop less different items to increase the variety of mobs needed to be killed to gather all different mats.

Aye, having local economies means local products, it does require mindark to reduce the amount of universal component drops - as it is that wouldnt make much of a difference for a start as most components have lost nearly all mu anyways.
Have blueprints and questchains for needed products require local supplies from different areas, that would get the tradeengine running if those areas were not connected by a tp...
 
Tbh it is the combination of TPs and vehicles that has made us all lazy, given us membership of the 'I want it, and I want it now brigade'.
We are not kids, this game is supposed to be a reflection of life in many ways, it has all the trappings yet you seem to want none of the inconveniences. Be careful what you wish for.

Fully agree - tps are only one corner stone of our transportation system and to give local economies a chance it probably would need more then just looking at TP's - space ship summons would need to go out the window just as much as 'instant-warps' - warpflights would need to take 10 to 20 minutes atleast to reach another planets and subwarp flights respectively hours. And it would be much better to have warp being just a special hightraveling speed in the actual universe which can be traced and intercepted with different warp drives providing different traveling speeds.
Also there is way to many vehicles per player - aquireing a vehicle should be an accomplishment which opens up aspects of the game not just number 83 in a collection.
Putting driver licences out to limit use of certain vehicles in certain areas could be one way to go.

But as said before this poll is simplified and i apreciate all the input towards respective views of economic impact.
 
I'm not voting on this because I can make arguments for both sides.

This.

Sure there are plenty of subtle and intangible benefits of removing TPs, but at the end of the day, quick travel means more PED cycled.

Personally I miss the days of having to walk around the planet to pick up all the TPs.

Let's remove vehicles instead :wise:
 
Even though TP has a major effect on TP chips (sweat, mind essence etc) and vehicles (oil) it certainly gets out weighed the benefits TP provide. I work 12 hour days/ nights 4 day shifts, with everyday things and most important job being a dad. I find it hard enough to find time to keep my stock up and fill orders as it is. I would not want to waste 10 - 20 mins flying from mining run to another. Especially on Caly that is massive compared to RT. Also my booth is not in center of a most popular area, but it right next to TP and so my customers have convince or quick tp to shop, buy stuff craft at M/C next to it or tp somewhere where they can craft. With out TP it would seriously damage my business.
 
Even though TP has a major effect on TP chips (sweat, mind essence etc) and vehicles (oil) it certainly gets out weighed the benefits TP provide. I work 12 hour days/ nights 4 day shifts, with everyday things and most important job being a dad. I find it hard enough to find time to keep my stock up and fill orders as it is. I would not want to waste 10 - 20 mins flying from mining run to another. Especially on Caly that is massive compared to RT. Also my booth is not in center of a most popular area, but it right next to TP and so my customers have convince or quick tp to shop, buy stuff craft at M/C next to it or tp somewhere where they can craft. With out TP it would seriously damage my business.

A valid point, but ask yourself if running a one man bussiness is a sign of a weak or a strong economy.
In an economy with sufficient markup you probably could rely on miners/hunters/crafters working on delivery (or even have a trader/reseller out there obtaining stuff from the sources and delivering them) for shopowners instead of trying to maximize profit by doing every step of the supplychain oneself.

It is a cycle in which most people like to see the advantage of low costs and convenience and forget that for an economy to thrive you got to spent (be it time/effort or money).
 
Do you think that the teleporter system strenghtens or weakens our entropian economy ?

I'm quoting the question here again to examine it closer. I think it is well meant but pointing nowhere, and therefore impossible to answer. First, strenghten/weaken by what criteria? GDP? As a whole or for each section? Or by the individual's chances to bring their harvest into circulation without resorting to TT? By its connectedness or the strength of its sections to stand alone?

In the real world, logistics are a substantial part of every product's price tag. We are constantly striving to become more efficient and lower it. In the virtual world, the cost of logistics is nigh zero by default. And here we're trying to increase it with all kinds of artificial arguments.

To what end? What is the benefit or goal of simulating a less efficient reality? I found no conclusive answer to this question yet.
 
I'm quoting the question here again to examine it closer. I think it is well meant but pointing nowhere, and therefore impossible to answer. First, strenghten/weaken by what criteria? GDP? As a whole or for each section? Or by the individual's chances to bring their harvest into circulation without resorting to TT? By its connectedness or the strength of its sections to stand alone?

In the real world, logistics are a substantial part of every product's price tag. We are constantly striving to become more efficient and lower it. In the virtual world, the cost of logistics is nigh zero by default. And here we're trying to increase it with all kinds of artificial arguments.

To what end? What is the benefit or goal of simulating a less efficient reality? I found no conclusive answer to this question yet.

In the real world import tax does exist to protect the local economies, without it many products would be obtained cheaper then can be manufactured locally and jobs would get lost leading to a downspiral of the respective countries economy. You see not everything we do in the realworld aims to bring products at the cheapest possible price available to all customers - we actually have governments protecting us from our own 'greed'.
 
In the real world import tax does exist to protect the local economies, ...
We could dispute this until the cows come home. Disclosure: I am libertarian...

You see not everything we do in the realworld aims to bring products at the cheapest possible price available to all customers - we actually have governments protecting us from our own 'greed'.
We have different actors with often conflicting interests. What is most lucrative for the government itself, and so easy since it has the power to simply serve itself?
 
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In the real world import tax does exist to protect the local economies, without it many products would be obtained cheaper then can be manufactured locally and jobs would get lost leading to a downspiral of the respective countries economy. You see not everything we do in the realworld aims to bring products at the cheapest possible price available to all customers - we actually have governments protecting us from our own 'greed'.

is that the reason why the US wants a free trade agreement with the pacific states and europe? becasue the tax protection would go away. as all the govs now say that import tax is a bad thing and needs to get rid off.
 
As JBK acknowledges, the poll is a simplified question. Depending on other conditions in the game, the effects of tps can go either way, so I didn't cast a vote.

To quote Douglas Adams: The infinite improbability drive is a wonderful new method of crossing interstellar distances in a mere nothingth of a second, without all that tedious mucking about in hyperspace.

The difference that we have is that tps cover planetary distances in a shortish time - but not quite as fast as the instant tps at forts and the new land plot settlements. I guess that's due to server handovers. Basically the tps provide an instant connection between locations and are free. Carried weights and goods are almost irrelevant for areas covered by the same storage.

Within this context I would actually prefer to see more instant tps within server areas to and from hubs, as this would save time and increase the time spent doing what both I and MA want - having ped turnover. Quite a lot of areas are also 'full' if there are just a few avatars in radar sight, so I would like to have the ability of hopping instantly around within a server area to quickly find an area I can 'mark' as my own for a bit. This is a function I almost see filled by quads in some hunting areas to be fair, though.

On the negative side, having a tp nearby makes the area very easily accessible. I don't mine much now, but I used to enjoy a feeling of remoteness (pre-vehicles) and that my mining area had hopefully not been mined by anyone else recently. While I was never sure of the dynamics of respawning for mining, it is VERY clear when you look at the respawning of trees for harvesting. There is thus a speed gain (more trees found per hour) in areas which are less easily accessible, so remoteness can have a dynamic tradeoff with actually getting there and back. However, as harvesting is yet another potentially bright idea left to rot by MA, the affects of accessibility currently don't seem to make much difference - almost nobody is bothering anywhere!

Basically, in a virtual reality, if it takes time and/or peds to get between two places, there should be a reason for it. If all you are doing is robbing players of time that could be spent on the (higher) turnover elements instead, then speed up the connection between those turnover elements.

In connection with a different universe I described my thoughts on why we should all be allowed to have alts (at the price of their food and drink), which can be similar in effect to moving around via tp but by switching avatars. The idea was to have far fewer quick and free tps there, making logistics of your 'family' more important (and within the rules!).
So.... it depends lol !
 
Teleporters improve gameplay and reduce frustration, which is the number one most important thing in game design.

Without them the (already low) retention rate would go through the floor.

Any other arguments are irrelevant in the face of that.
 
...

Simply put there is no right way or wrong way, but as adults we should at least show maturity and stop behaving like 5 year olds and accept that we are all entitled to play it as we see fit. Mind Arks job is therefore to make it appeal to as many player types as possible, no one group of players should take preference over any other.

Well said Granny Rowan. The best thing for this game (err... in my admittedly newbie; and therefore, uneducated, opinion), seems would be about 5,000 more active players.
 
A valid point, but ask yourself if running a one man bussiness is a sign of a weak or a strong economy.
In an economy with sufficient markup you probably could rely on miners/hunters/crafters working on delivery (or even have a trader/reseller out there obtaining stuff from the sources and delivering them) for shopowners instead of trying to maximize profit by doing every step of the supplychain oneself.

It is a cycle in which most people like to see the advantage of low costs and convenience and forget that for an economy to thrive you got to spent (be it time/effort or money).

Who said its one man business? I work with others to help the community and to help the economy grow. I don't think its weak or strong, but it is growing. The reason why I brought a shop is so I don't have to waste time standing around selling goods and others have a convenient place to buy their materials. this also give me more time to play the game and not waste my time standing around not spending money.

Maybe someone should make a poll asking if Which effect do you believe have Warp drives on our entropian economy ? At the end of the day are these not like TP in space a quicker way to get from A to B. If we did not have tp and therefore it would players 10 to 20 mins get from one side of the planet to the other. Surely then taking a MS over a hour to get from 1 planet to another makes sense.
 
It's fairly simple.

TP = quickest way of moving from point A to point B, therefore quickest way of selling any item (or buying vice-versa).

It improves the economy via the exact same mechanism as the internet - connecting two people faster than any other way.
 
if you want to have stronger markets, remove the auction house completely. the economy would become a lot stronger immediately.

I agree! I like TPs because they get you to point B faster when you do not play the game 24/7. Time is gold. If I could buy a TP to work everyday - I WOULD. If I think of things I buy a lot, maybe textures and paints, I would probably have to buy them less often to save time so I think that retail shop would see less visits and less of my impulse-buying, which I do every time I visit. I might just get the supplies from auction. So that's it - no TPs would just mean more auction house activity and less shops making money.

I say transfer the auction fee to the shop owners when they sell items and maybe even player-to-player trades and get rid of the ah altogether. We might even see more activity at Twin Peaks TP.

Now traders will have to bring goods from other planets and there might even be more activity for space pvp for those who choose to take risks.
 
Until you can teleport between planets without a ship, it's a detriment.
Mostly because you fuckers never drop by to buy our shit.
We might get one out here in the ass end of nowhere but I'd have better chance crafting my mats for profits than our fearful space travelers.
 
dammit I vote wrong. ofc TPs help the economy.

A bigger question for a new thread would be how Mindarks economy effects the ingame economy?

Mindark hade made a loss of 4.000.000 SEK at the end of november. That most have some effect of the ingame eceonomy
 
That is a deeply political question, and it would be interesting to see how many peoples answers to this match their real life political views.
 
Easy travel = easy consumption

If I get bored with activity A, I go elsewhere and do B.

Restrict the freedom means restricting activity, means hurting the economy.
 
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That is a deeply political question, and it would be interesting to see how many peoples answers to this match their real life political views.

Probably all of them, so far i have spottet a decent number of people who claim that tp's strenghten the economy just because they like tp's - the reasons given why in this thread would make alot of economists cringe.
Players forget that entropias economy can not be compared to earths economy of the 21st century - we are still hunting and mining on entropia our products are primarily in production - the comparison has to be made with earths economy of the medieval age and the 19th century...

Those who claim that goods sell faster due to TP's forget that this is the exact reason that brings markups down - fast sales/overcompetition.
Also the shopowners who claim to have more footfall at their stores, please dont forget that the TP network practically moves the other dozend shops that sell the same stuff as you into the same 'shopping street' - this means 'convenience stores' never get a chance against 'supermarkets' which also kills markup (also it has to be said that the auction house is the biggest supermarket and would need some limitations to give stores a better chance).
 
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