Notice regarding inquiries referring to selling of avatars:

its the same as the mm gun that was worth 300k a few year back now 50k to 100k whit the cost to ma tt value the other cost is the players

ma is only dept is the tt value that it that all

you can have 1millon skills tt value may be worth 100 dollars in tt

if skill now are worth 1100% whit 1000% esi that 100 % to the seller if the esi were to go to the tt machine baught from it the esi would sell for more that 100% garentied ppoeple could get rpobly 5 time what they get now in selling skills

I ran this quote through google translator and it still makes no sense. I can try to work with it but you won't like what I'm saying.

What's preventing MA from making new items that are relatively good? It doesn't cost them TT value with the MU on the players. It costs them zero. They can't have us all shooting 3.0 dpp or they would have to think up new and better strategies to make money besides lag and salami slicing.

Whats preventing them from making nice nice gear and then extracting the maximum from players? Nothing.

Whats preventing them from creating new gear and releasing it and then using alts to jack the value artificially? Nothing.

What's preventing players from leaving when they realize there's really only 3 good guns in the whole game and they are all coveted by insiders? Difficulty selling out.

If it was easy we'd all be gone and then who would they extract the max value from? Not the nubees.
 
Has anyone considered the effect if they did openly allow accounts to be sold?

They would legally be assigning value to accounts. The EULA was recently changed to only guarantee 6 months of deposits in the event of shutting down. The liability of having all of these accounts valuated, for MA would be pretty immense, and legally likely put them into quick debt if they ever had to pay back whatever was valued in total.

As well, everyone, including MA would now have tax nightmares, if the accounts have a value, you better believe the tax man will want you to declare it, and valuate it all. As it stands, accounts are not actual assets, we have no legal authority over them except by use. There is no value until it is returned in cash.

A lot of issues regarding account sales behind the scenes, frankly I think its easier to keep it as is, because I fear that any sort of change like that would regulate the game for taxes and thus kill the game and value of everyone.

Damn salient points!

Avoid the Man, as much as you can ;-)

:wise:
 
You're all so right. It's so much better to have a used avatar black market. ho hum. nothing to see here, move along, same as it ever was.
 
I read and fully understood.

If esi has no markup value (esi at tt as bolded in your first post) then skills will not have +100% markup they will have much less. As the availability of skills will be more

Making esi cheap makes skills (relatively) even cheaper.

The prices of skills are going down , they hit what , 950 % and the price of an esi will be the same ? So then what use will have esis ? None ! That will get the prices of esis fall , so slowly the MU of esi and skills will go to 0 , take a look at the MU progress of skills in last 3 years, not saying in the last 8-10 years because the difference it's extremely huge. Think about it , try to remember what price had evede or dodge some years ago , the prices at some went down with 2-3 k %. You want to enjoy the prices of some esi now ? Do it , maybe we will talk about this again in a year or two and we will see what use will have the esi .
 
In my opinion, they would not be assigning anything. it would be a transaction between 2 persons the price being set between them, they would just make sure to transfer the skills / whole account between the 2 parties. The parties are solely responsible to declare their deal just like any other deal happening anywhere else.
Was there a notification on that EULA change referred to for guaranteeing only 6 months of deposits in case of shutdown? Does that mean tt value is not covered anymore? Could you please give a reference to the EULA particular article?
They would legally be assigning value to accounts. The EULA was recently changed to only guarantee 6 months of deposits in the event of shutting down.
As well, everyone, including MA would now have tax nightmares, if the accounts have a value, you better believe the tax man will want you to declare it, and valuate it all. As it stands, accounts are not actual assets, we have no legal authority over them except by use. There is no value until it is returned in cash.
 
what a nonsense to sell your avatar.

You can already sell anything except the attributes and name.

What would be the next step? To be able to sell your avatar to the TT?

Besides. avatars have names and reputations. Those should not be allowed to be transferred.
If I'm talking to an avatar I'm talking to a person. Identities should not be traded. Its unethical.

And all that " but I've invested so much shit in it so I should have the right, bla bla" etc. is bullshit.
You already have to right to sell everything and to take your money out.
Just take some effort to do so like many before did who sold out.

Besides, buying an avatar would be so lame. Money should not be able to buy ANYTHING. Some things should be earned instead of bought.
 
That is exactly why I proposed to allow to transfer all skills (excluding all attributes and non-sellable skills) overwriting the targets skills and deteriorating the skill value received, MA acting as the broker and collecting a fee for the service.
The reason why overwriting the target skills - because guess no-one pouring in 3-5 ubers to make a superuber, would be inbalanced and too easy.
It is simple, and really there are no issues with the approach I can see. Skills detoriating same way as ESI transfer, extra money for MA, whiners feeling trapped today can finally quit and everyone is happy.
Avatars have been and will be sold and run in different arrangements as long as there is demand and supply. Same as IRL with prostitution and drugs - although in an ideal world they should not exist, imho instead of pretending that it does not exist / making fines to punish is to accept that demand and supply cannot be removed, legalize and take control instead of leaving it in a gray zone.
avatars have names and reputations. Those should not be allowed to be transferred.
If I'm talking to an avatar I'm talking to a person. Identities should not be traded. Its unethical.
 
"We do not support" is not equal to "we forbid", suspension is not a ban, and EULA 2.2 in its current form is too vague to really mean anything. You want to stop speculations regarding trading of avatars - add an explicit prohibition to the EULA and release an unambiguous statement about that.

:wise:

what he said!
 
Besides. avatars have names and reputations. Those should not be allowed to be transferred.
If I'm talking to an avatar I'm talking to a person. Identities should not be traded. Its unethical.

And opens doors for trust scammers!

If someone knows who is friends, and then one high level Ava is for sale, a trustscammer can jump on the offer and try to rip money from one of the friends of the sold account.

But hey its all cool, it hasn´t happened in the past that scammers stole several thousand PED valued items, why it should happen in the future, when it becomes even easyer when well known Avatars can be officially sold.

Example:
I would trust Auktuma anytime, give him materials worth a lot of money to craft something for me, now Auktuma sell his account (his name, reputation), and I talk to him, hey can you craft some sets of Lich Armor for me.
The new owner say, yes I can, just bring me the materials (thats what Auktuma would say to me, too).
I bring the materials, not aware that account is sold, trade it without colateral, and voila my money gone to a scammer who just bought a well known reputable avatar name.

This would suck a lot.

You should know the world is evil, greed and envy everywhere and scammers at every corner.
 
Dont know why ma just increase supply esis so the price drops. You likely to get more skill trading that way if esis are cheaper and less actual selling accounts. But then again this game has been more about kit then skill these days so.

Get rid of the cap business would go along way to stop people hoarding and riseing prices. Iv seen some apartments on caly which has 100s empty esis their some even full tt. You want movement in the economy not stagnation as it currently is. if fact the whole economy needs looking at but il save that rant for another day.
 
Iv seen some apartments on caly which has 100s empty esis their some even full tt.

Maybe this player collect ESI for the time when he wants to stop playing and have no hassle to get enough ESI to chip out and sell his skills?

Sidenote, have some ESI in storage aswell, just in case I want to chip out something, no need to search for ESIs.
 
That is exactly why I proposed to allow to transfer all skills (excluding all attributes and non-sellable skills) overwriting the targets skills and deteriorating the skill value received, MA acting as the broker and collecting a fee for the service.
.

this already exists.

It's called Empty Skill Implant aka ESI's.
you can loot them, or buy them on auction.

why make an alternative system?
 
No it doesn't exist. I am talking about supporting bulk transfers. Esi's as they are are only useful for small transfers. For bulk transfer there are too many limitations for them to work, thus people are and will get around it by transferring the avatar itself, which is an issue for all parties involved. Did chip out once and back again so know very well and that was in time when the skills still cost something and it was a mess already back then.
to name the limitations
* availability of esis -> the price of them
* small esis cannot be used as soon as skills over 10k, as you would waste 2-3 peds of esi on each extract -> availability of big esi's
* time it takes to extract, time it takes to insert
as of this we are stuck with many whiners who would happily transfer their skills to new generation, but as they cannot effectively do so, they are stuck around poisoning the community with their disappointment with their "hostage situation"
this already exists.
It's called Empty Skill Implant aka ESI's.
you can loot them, or buy them on auction.
why make an alternative system?
 
Maybe this player collect ESI for the time when he wants to stop playing and have no hassle to get enough ESI to chip out and sell his skills?

Sidenote, have some ESI in storage aswell, just in case I want to chip out something, no need to search for ESIs.

Got no problem in that just the whole cap issue ingame atm. no movement in items so basically peoples hunts are s**t because their not getting anything because item caps. Theirs quite a few mobs i spent time mapping and you can clearly see these caps. I done plenty research on my hunts setups and got some really bloody good but the thing what kills me every time is the item caps. unless you can pull tt which needs a weapon above 3.1 or 3.2 dpp then your pretty much long term gonna lose. Unless you know the exact wave times ofc.
 
No it doesn't exist. I am talking about supporting bulk transfers. Esi's as they are are only useful for small transfers. For bulk transfer there are too many limitations for them to work, thus people are and will get around it by transferring the avatar itself, which is an issue for all parties involved


ahh, in Holland we call this a "luxury problem".

"Damn, I have TO MUCH! How can I sell it all, cash out without any effort?!
Help, I just have to much to much!"

Just swallow it and use the existing systems. You knew all this before you started collecting those green skill lines.
So now change the rules because you yourself collected to many of those green lines and find it to difficult to get rid of them?

Nah, let's not.


Got no problem in that just the whole cap issue ingame atm. no movement in items so basically peoples hunts are s**t because their not getting anything because item caps. Theirs quite a few mobs i spent time mapping and you can clearly see these caps. I done plenty research on my hunts setups and got some really bloody good but the thing what kills me every time is the item caps. unless you can pull tt which needs a weapon above 3.1 or 3.2 dpp then your pretty much long term gonna lose. Unless you know the exact wave times ofc.

this is imho the biggest problem with the current system.
The chipping system works just fine, but the problem is that MA is preventing us to actually use the system due to creating a lack of ESI's.

*edit*
sorry, you adressed this allready as well.
to name the limitations
* availability of esis -> the price of them
* small esis cannot be used as soon as skills over 10k, as you would waste 2-3 peds of esi on each extract -> availability of big esi's
 
The term is widely referred to as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World_problem
There is no swallowing it and using existing systems, the ESIs are simply not feasible for bulk transfers: I alone could consume all the esi's looted for an extensive period of time. 25k skill is 22k peds in ESI according to chipping optimizer (and I think it is even higher as the graph of optimizer is wrong as of 14k or so). And that is one of the skills.
As mentioned the real issues are as long as there is no such system
* "hostage owners" just trolling around and poisoning the community as they are un-pleased with their situation
* people are motivated to keep their skills low to be able to extract them
* illegal sales will keep on happening
To say that you should not have acquired all that stuff is avoiding the issue. Thought you were better than that in Holland :)
P.S.
Just a very real use case to show how cynical it is at the moment and why I care. Suppose you never were planning to sell your skills but acquired a lot over the years. Then you find out you are to die pretty soon (let's say you are given a month). Of course you would like to leave your funds to the family instead of MA. What are your real options knowing that according to the rules, MA does own your stuff after you are gone? Waiting for someone to loot those ESIs? Yep, guess that's what you would do.

ahh, in Holland we call this a "luxury problem".
Just swallow it and use the existing systems. You knew all this before you started collecting those green skill lines.
 
The term is widely referred to as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World_problem
There is no swallowing it and using existing systems, the ESIs are simply not feasible for bulk transfers: I alone could consume all the esi's looted for an extensive period of time. 25k skill is 22k peds in ESI according to chipping optimizer (and I think it is even higher as the graph of optimizer is wrong as of 14k or so). And that is one of the skills.
As mentioned the real issues are as long as there is no such system
* "hostage owners" just trolling around and poisoning the community as they are un-pleased with their situation
* people are motivated to keep their skills low to be able to extract them
* illegal sales will keep on happening
To say that you should not have acquired all that stuff is avoiding the issue. Thought you were better than that in Holland :)
P.S.
Just a very real use case to show how cynical it is at the moment and why I care. Suppose you never were planning to sell your skills but acquired a lot over the years. Then you find out you are to die pretty soon (let's say you are given a month). Of course you would like to leave your funds to the family instead of MA. What are your real options knowing that according to the rules, MA does own your stuff after you are gone? Waiting for someone to loot those ESIs? Yep, guess that's what you would do.

Yes girtsn, you are adressing a problem indeed. I can only agree with that.
But your proposed solutions would not be my idea.
I " think" the system does work, IF there would be enough ESI available.

Now, what would be the easiest workable solution be?
Just remove the ESI cap or to create a completely new alternative system?
 
In my opinion, they would not be assigning anything. it would be a transaction between 2 persons the price being set between them, they would just make sure to transfer the skills / whole account between the 2 parties. The parties are solely responsible to declare their deal just like any other deal happening anywhere else.
Was there a notification on that EULA change referred to for guaranteeing only 6 months of deposits in case of shutdown? Does that mean tt value is not covered anymore? Could you please give a reference to the EULA particular article?


The change to '6 months of deposits' happened about 2008/2009, and has since remained unchanged.

Here's what turned up after a few searches:

EULA at 6Feb07:
MINDARK'S LIABILITY TOWARDS ANY PARTICIPANT SHALL, IF ACKNOWLEDGED, IN EACH INCIDENCE BE LIMITED TO NO MORE THAN THE INITIAL AMOUNT TRANSFERRED BY SAID PARTICIPANT INTO THE ENTROPIA UNIVERSE.

EULA at 16Oct07:
MINDARK'S LIABILITY TOWARDS ANY PARTICIPANT SHALL, IF ACKNOWLEDGED, IN EACH INCIDENCE BE LIMITED TO NO MORE THAN THE INITIAL AMOUNT TRANSFERRED BY SAID PARTICIPANT INTO THE ENTROPIA UNIVERSE.

EULA at 10Sep08:
MINDARK'S LIABILITY TOWARDS ANY PARTICIPANT SHALL, IF ACKNOWLEDGED, IN EACH INCIDENCE BE LIMITED TO NO MORE THAN THE INITIAL AMOUNT TRANSFERRED BY SAID PARTICIPANT INTO THE ENTROPIA UNIVERSE


<-------- CHANGED SOMEWHERE IN HERE ------------------>


EULA at 4Apr2009:
MINDARK'S LIABILITY TOWARDS ANY PARTICIPANT SHALL, IF ACKNOWLEDGED, IN EACH INCIDENCE BE LIMITED TO NO MORE THAN THE TOTAL AMOUNT TRANSFERRED INTO THE INVOLVED ACCOUNT BY SAID PARTICIPANT UNDER THE SIX MONTHS PERIOD PRIOR TO THE INCIDENT

EULA at 18Aug2009:
MINDARK'S LIABILITY TOWARDS ANY PARTICIPANT SHALL, IF ACKNOWLEDGED, IN EACH INCIDENCE BE LIMITED TO NO MORE THAN THE TOTAL AMOUNT TRANSFERRED INTO THE INVOLVED ACCOUNT BY SAID PARTICIPANT UNDER THE SIX MONTHS PERIOD PRIOR TO THE INCIDENT

Current EULA:
MINDARK'S LIABILITY TOWARDS ANY PARTICIPANT SHALL, IF ACKNOWLEDGED, IN EACH INCIDENCE BE LIMITED TO NO MORE THAN THE TOTAL AMOUNT TRANSFERRED INTO THE INVOLVED ACCOUNT BY SAID PARTICIPANT UNDER THE SIX MONTHS PERIOD PRIOR TO THE INCIDENT.

Sorry that I can't pin the date down further than that right now. It was about the same time as the start of the whole FPC/SEE stuff, so lots of posts on the forum. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a long 'venting' thread somewhere about the change, but I can't find it right now. Perhaps someone still has a subscription to it?
 
The prices of skills are going down , they hit what , 950 % and the price of an esi will be the same ? So then what use will have esis ? None ! That will get the prices of esis fall , so slowly the MU of esi and skills will go to 0 , take a look at the MU progress of skills in last 3 years, not saying in the last 8-10 years because the difference it's extremely huge. Think about it , try to remember what price had evede or dodge some years ago , the prices at some went down with 2-3 k %. You want to enjoy the prices of some esi now ? Do it , maybe we will talk about this again in a year or two and we will see what use will have the esi .

You're confusing the issue. In the last 3 years we have had a massive rise in the availability and usage of skill pills. It's now much easier to generate skill, therefore the value of skills has fallen.

e.g. 1ped TT of evade @ 3k% = 30ped. 30ped of skillpills & just standing by a mob would generate far more than 1ped TT of evade.
 
Why would MA make anything to side-step ESI skill transfer easy and legal ?
* ESIs create extra cash flow
* ESIs reduce total skills in game
* ESIs and skill transfer complications make people to abandon their investments into accounts which reduce MA's liability
* ESIs are carrots for hunters to keep them hunting
MA will never allow direct avatar or skill transfer for same reason they did not make items' renting system: It will immediately reduce PED sales and increase withdrawals.
People, who invested a lot in EU will always defend status quo the same way pyramid scheme participants near its apex will defend their scheme.
 
And opens doors for trust scammers!

If someone knows who is friends, and then one high level Ava is for sale, a trustscammer can jump on the offer and try to rip money from one of the friends of the sold account.

But hey its all cool, it hasn´t happened in the past that scammers stole several thousand PED valued items, why it should happen in the future, when it becomes even easyer when well known Avatars can be officially sold.

Example:
I would trust Auktuma anytime, give him materials worth a lot of money to craft something for me, now Auktuma sell his account (his name, reputation), and I talk to him, hey can you craft some sets of Lich Armor for me.
The new owner say, yes I can, just bring me the materials (thats what Auktuma would say to me, too).
I bring the materials, not aware that account is sold, trade it without colateral, and voila my money gone to a scammer who just bought a well known reputable avatar name.

This would suck a lot.

You should know the world is evil, greed and envy everywhere and scammers at every corner.

This is easily fixed by having an official avatar transfer process which not only acts as escrow but requires changing of all personal information and complete change of avatar name and internal id.
 
You're confusing the issue. In the last 3 years we have had a massive rise in the availability and usage of skill pills. It's now much easier to generate skill, therefore the value of skills has fallen.

e.g. 1ped TT of evade @ 3k% = 30ped. 30ped of skillpills & just standing by a mob would generate far more than 1ped TT of evade.

Pills and rings.

Also wish people on this forum would stop giving mindark bad ideas and then complain about them implementing bad ideas.

Just loot more esis or tell the hoarders to stop hoarding them to supply flows.

@girts: we call that antedoctal evidence to justify something that, if brought out to their logical ends, is a very bad idea. The likelihood of your scenario happening is not sufficient to circumvent the entire economy of a real cash economy game.
 
Just release a lot more ESIs, and when I'm saying more is like at least 10 times more.

As UL items made most of L's useless(affecting big time all 3 professions) it's the same with ESI's being in such a tiny quantity available, it just makes the skills price close to nothing. Skills needs to have a way to be consumed to maintain some value, if no ESIs are available no skill decay happens.

To give a chance to the economy MA should reduce a lot UL items drops/prizes and increase a lot ESI's drop.
It was working just fine one time but for what ever reason they decided to change this balance.

When I started playing I was able to loot a ESI(named GSI back then) from a snable young, it was a pretty big hit for a new player and that hit made me invest more and get bigger guns, to hunt bigger mobs, and it was FUN to play back then, you had a chance to get something no matter what level you were, any mob was interesting to hunt.

Since planets came into play we only see a competition to steal old players from the other planets by offering better UL items on their loot table.

Release more ESI! or stop saying in your advertisements that you can sell your skills and make money, because as other said that's really not the case at this moment.
 
yea sell skill buy a esi for 100 for sell for 110 that make alot of sense

also making skill sale more easy dont make ma more liable it the poeple paying not ma

so if you sell 5000 dollars of skill the money dont come out of ma the guy has to have the money ether have the ped on his card or depo

for me that why i dont play much there too many way poeple take money from other from bug or poorly game macanic

poeple hord so they can raise the price it shouldnt be that way when they see it to should drop more

so they cant do it
 
yea sell skill buy a esi for 100 for sell for 110 that make alot of sense

also making skill sale more easy dont make ma more liable it the poeple paying not ma

so if you sell 5000 dollars of skill the money dont come out of ma the guy has to have the money ether have the ped on his card or depo

for me that why i dont play much there too many way poeple take money from other from bug or poorly game macanic

poeple hord so they can raise the price it shouldnt be that way when they see it to should drop more

so they cant do it

Prices wouldn't be where they are if people didn't pay them. Hoarding happens with all resources. Some call it lazy hunting but it's just resource flood avoidance.
 
The whole objective of MA is player retention and ESI facilitates that by making the process of skill removal cumbersome. Most people including myself on being pissed off enough would sell everything but not bother with skills. While that might look bad in itself, the probability of me coming back to EU to check things with time increases exponentially because for me, I am still invested in EU through my avatar.

I am pretty sure MA would have the figures of the number of people who came back after extended periods and had not removed there skill vs those who had. So from a purely business and game design perspective it makes sense for them to keep it the way things are.

MA also claims that you can make money here, that does not mean it will be easy. If it were, then everyone would have made money except MA.

Everyone has a right to voice there opinion as do i but hope MA do what makes sense for EU as a whole.

The whole avatar sale bit has been clarified already by them in terms of what there stance is. If people do it illegally it is done at the risk of the seller getting back the account anytime he wants.

I personally don't think MA has anything further to act on as far as this is concerned but to each there own.
 
Think that hitting the (extreme) case which I described or any other urgent need for $, provided there is a demand the bulk sales have and will happen.
The choice is between accepting them and getting some $ for MA vs. saying they are illegal + pretending they don't exist.
Unfortunately the majority votes for the later. As mentioned before, imho it is comparable to prostitution and use of recreational drugs - existing everywhere. However in most countries, they are illegal and politicians are pretending like they don't exist. It's an approach, though I despise it.
@girts: we call that antedoctal evidence to justify something that, if brought out to their logical ends, is a very bad idea. The likelihood of your scenario happening is not sufficient to circumvent the entire economy of a real cash economy game.
 
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