Notice regarding inquiries referring to selling of avatars:

Think that hitting the (extreme) case which I described or any other urgent need for $, provided there is a demand the bulk sales have and will happen.
The choice is between accepting them and getting some $ for MA vs. saying they are illegal + pretending they don't exist.
Unfortunately the majority votes for the later. As mentioned before, imho it is comparable to prostitution and use of recreational drugs - existing everywhere. However in most countries, they are illegal and politicians are pretending like they don't exist. It's an approach, though I despise it.

Good lord man.. what's happened to you.

Esis aren't compatible to any of that. This is a real cash economy game. Stop trying to justify circumventing that to get more cash for mindark. We have the appropriate apparatus for sucking skills out of the game. Either make more drop or increase esi supply a different way. But don't circumvent it entirely.

any development manager will tell you (such as myself), you don't burn development hours on things few people will use or for the very small minority (paretto principle). You also don't create features that increase the need for support and arbitration because that takes away from value add work. This idea to circumvent the game to sell avatars violates both of those. This isn't your normal MMO (where selling avatars is often also forbidden). There are other things to consider beyond trying to give yourself an easy exit. It is as what divinity says.

Figure out how to make esis not 950% because of hoarding instead of going around the system. I like the idea of people buying skills and chipping to where they want to be at a smaller cost. But with that said, it needs to be IN the game with 1 or all the professions participating.
 
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The whole objective of MA is player retention and ESI facilitates that by making the process of skill removal cumbersome. Most people including myself on being pissed off enough would sell everything but not bother with skills. While that might look bad in itself, the probability of me coming back to EU to check things with time increases exponentially because for me, I am still invested in EU through my avatar.

I am pretty sure MA would have the figures of the number of people who came back after extended periods and had not removed there skill vs those who had. So from a purely business and game design perspective it makes sense for them to keep it the way things are.

MA also claims that you can make money here, that does not mean it will be easy. If it were, then everyone would have made money except MA.

Everyone has a right to voice there opinion as do i but hope MA do what makes sense for EU as a whole.

The whole avatar sale bit has been clarified already by them in terms of what there stance is. If people do it illegally it is done at the risk of the seller getting back the account anytime he wants.

I personally don't think MA has anything further to act on as far as this is concerned but to each there own.

I don't think that current situation, where MA try to make impossible for players to sell out produce any benefits for the game.
A pissed off customer doesn't bring more customers, it's exactly the opposite, it takes more with him, eventually all of them try to move together to another game, I experienced this in Entropia, once that feeling is installing more and more people get pissed off because their old friends don't play and stop playing.
Allowing to chip out would help creating another wave off players that would theoretically take over the skills and start playing to another level.
A player could sell skills ONLY if another ONE or MORE than one player will buy them, so MA doesn't lose any players, not to mention that this player that was able to sell out will help the game providing good advertisement.
When you tell someone that you sold out your avatar/skills and bought a new car they will definitely be interested to try the game, but when you tell them that you try for years to do it will give next to zero interest, the game is close to be dead they would think.
 
EU is not RCE for long time.
In an RCE investments need to be liquid - i mean ability to move and monetize investments in reasonable time.
To sell skills by chipping need very long time in term of getting enough ESI and finding buyers.
For an veteran that mean it will take 3 or more years - so long time in witch skill values will devaluate.
All this have nothing to do with liquidity and RCE as long as you don't have access and disposition on your (avatar) investments.
Who will invest in avatar knowing that once he decide to reinvest in other things will need very long time in witch his opportunity of reinvestment will be gone.
The fact that the packaging (ESI) cost more than its content is pure nonsense and non have nothing to do with RCE and free market.
 
Seems a lot of people forgot that originally we couldn't sell skills at all.
 
Seems a lot of people forgot that originally we couldn't sell skills at all.

In that time skills were part of game and not part of so called MA RCE. (or not part of loot if you prefer or rewards in skills for missions valued in peds too)
 
EU is not RCE for long time.
In an RCE investments need to be liquid - i mean ability to move and monetize investments in reasonable time.
To sell skills by chipping need very long time in term of getting enough ESI and finding buyers.
For an veteran that mean it will take 3 or more years - so long time in witch skill values will devaluate.
All this have nothing to do with liquidity and RCE as long as you don't have access and disposition on your (avatar) investments.
Who will invest in avatar knowing that once he decide to reinvest in other things will need very long time in witch his opportunity of reinvestment will be gone.
The fact that the packaging (ESI) cost more than its content is pure nonsense and non have nothing to do with RCE and free market.
Second that. The RCE aspect had been broken so many times in the past by not acting (for example no action taken on time to various exploiters) or by action (like Hangars, Jesus, Dekel IIRC got fucking hat).
To me, the turning point was "auction" on the Asteroid, when Deathifier had the PED in hand, then servers went down and when they came back up NEVERDIE had the rock, all during hurricane raging in Florida :p
 
Seems a lot of people forgot that originally we couldn't sell skills at all.
Not to mention avatar sales at that time, which were more or less legitimate, like aforementioned Dekel avatar.
Also, were we actually happy about introduction of GSI ? IIRC we in DK were not, because for us the skills mattered a lot as matter of bragging and a sign of dedication. And it was clear signal to say farewell to legitimately passing your avatar to somebody else for whatever reason.
 
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The term is widely referred to as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World_problem
There is no swallowing it and using existing systems, the ESIs are simply not feasible for bulk transfers: I alone could consume all the esi's looted for an extensive period of time. 25k skill is 22k peds in ESI according to chipping optimizer (and I think it is even higher as the graph of optimizer is wrong as of 14k or so). And that is one of the skills.
As mentioned the real issues are as long as there is no such system
* "hostage owners" just trolling around and poisoning the community as they are un-pleased with their situation
* people are motivated to keep their skills low to be able to extract them
* illegal sales will keep on happening
To say that you should not have acquired all that stuff is avoiding the issue. Thought you were better than that in Holland :)
P.S.
Just a very real use case to show how cynical it is at the moment and why I care. Suppose you never were planning to sell your skills but acquired a lot over the years. Then you find out you are to die pretty soon (let's say you are given a month). Of course you would like to leave your funds to the family instead of MA. What are your real options knowing that according to the rules, MA does own your stuff after you are gone? Waiting for someone to loot those ESIs? Yep, guess that's what you would do.

Not having a dig but if players were made to use the esi system or skill up surely you wouldnt be moaning about your tt returns as it will either put mu to top that tt up or your tt will be that much higher. I agree system.needs looking at to make it more feasable bigger esis etc etc.
 
And we can look on this thing like this...
Person A dont want to play anymore and wants to stop in the game, Person B wants to buy the avatar and play this game.

Who brings more money to MA avatar A or B.:cool:
 
And we can look on this thing like this...
Person A dont want to play anymore and wants to stop in the game, Person B wants to buy the avatar and play this game.

Who brings more money to MA avatar A or B.:cool:

B starting an avatar from scratch.
 
B starting an avatar from scratch.

This lol.

But if you use the system already in place instead of selling the account and tweaked drops rates etc not only would a be able to sell his skills and b buys them but also c being the i found esi has a postive hunt feels gd about him self depo more cycle more. Or b could just do it the old fashion way by cycling peds keeping players d happy because they get the few extra globals / hof now n again.
 
This lol.

But if you use the system already in place instead of selling the account and tweaked drops rates etc not only would a be able to sell his skills and b buys them but also c being the i found esi has a postive hunt feels gd about him self depo more cycle more. Or b could just do it the old fashion way by cycling peds keeping players d happy because they get the few extra globals / hof now n again.

As 5$/atomicstorm has alluded to, there is more that is stopping c/d/e/f/g/h/etc happening. Hoarding of stackables/(L)consumbles is hurting every part of the economy and is direct restriction of the free market.
 
This lol.

But if you use the system already in place instead of selling the account and tweaked drops rates etc not only would a be able to sell his skills and b buys them but also c being the i found esi has a postive hunt feels gd about him self depo more cycle more. Or b could just do it the old fashion way by cycling peds keeping players d happy because they get the few extra globals / hof now n again.

There is only one "Error" or not in "balance" to day if you look on the old times.
Today you skilling faster then ever and drop rate of ESI:s is shit not like before.

:wise:
 
There is only one "Error" or not in "balance" to day if you look on the old times.
Today you skilling faster then ever and drop rate of ESI:s is shit not like before.

:wise:

why its important to use esi's to increase brain drain or even increase % at which you lose skills by chipping out. Get the esi's at the right price their start moving and skills will to.

Funny though i remember my first ever global back in 2006 from a Berycle irc first global resulted also in a 10ped esi which enabled me to up grade armor to goblin. Still remember that to this day. This new account though im lucky to get 1 esi a year.
 
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I don't think that current situation, where MA try to make impossible for players to sell out produce any benefits for the game.
A pissed off customer doesn't bring more customers, it's exactly the opposite, it takes more with him, eventually all of them try to move together to another game, I experienced this in Entropia, once that feeling is installing more and more people get pissed off because their old friends don't play and stop playing.
Allowing to chip out would help creating another wave off players that would theoretically take over the skills and start playing to another level.
A player could sell skills ONLY if another ONE or MORE than one player will buy them, so MA doesn't lose any players, not to mention that this player that was able to sell out will help the game providing good advertisement.
When you tell someone that you sold out your avatar/skills and bought a new car they will definitely be interested to try the game, but when you tell them that you try for years to do it will give next to zero interest, the game is close to be dead they would think.

this is true :wise:, but i think people dont want to see it.
when a new player X comes ingame , durring the migration or MM for example , he has 0 skills , but he want to compet with the big ones so chipping in skills could cost him 20k $ , too expensive , so he starts to hunt puny mobs and kerberos , and the game give him shit back , nothing interesting and all annyoing hunting puny mobs after a while he get pissed of and quit the game , with 2k skills , no gear on his side , nobody cares about him ,
but when this player X could buy a new already made avatar , with 5k 10 k 100 k$ and he already has a skilled avatar some good gear maybe , and he is interested of this easy playing with the ubers in all competitions, what you think he will quit ? no he will start grinding , and playing all time , there are not too many Messi91 @ that put idk how many $ ingame and starts from 0 and in short time he is one of the best ingame .
so let people sell avatars , change the name , change the bankaccount take a fee and leave another guy to play the game , easy . you have more chances from a guy who paid 10 $ for an new avatar to remaing and put more cash than one who start from 0 and will put 20$.
 
this is true :wise:, but i think people dont want to see it.
when a new player X comes ingame , durring the migration or MM for example , he has 0 skills , but he want to compet with the big ones so chipping in skills could cost him 20k $ , too expensive , so he starts to hunt puny mobs and kerberos , and the game give him shit back , nothing interesting and all annyoing hunting puny mobs after a while he get pissed of and quit the game , with 2k skills , no gear on his side , nobody cares about him ,
but when this player X could buy a new already made avatar , with 5k 10 k 100 k$ and he already has a skilled avatar some good gear maybe , and he is interested of this easy playing with the ubers in all competitions, what you think he will quit ? no he will start grinding , and playing all time , there are not too many Messi91 @ that put idk how many $ ingame and starts from 0 and in short time he is one of the best ingame .
so let people sell avatars , change the name , change the bankaccount take a fee and leave another guy to play the game , easy . you have more chances from a guy who paid 10 $ for an new avatar to remaing and put more cash than one who start from 0 and will put 20$.

lol... just lol...

you want to buy an already equipped avatar and high skills to compete in MM? then you will need to invest a lot more than 20.000$ when starting from scratch xD
 
You're confusing the issue. In the last 3 years we have had a massive rise in the availability and usage of skill pills. It's now much easier to generate skill, therefore the value of skills has fallen.

e.g. 1ped TT of evade @ 3k% = 30ped. 30ped of skillpills & just standing by a mob would generate far more than 1ped TT of evade.

Im confising the issue ? do you have some mental illness ? Indeed skill pills generate more skill , when the people will have trilions of skills , for what use will be to sell skills ? everybody have skills , everybody can make easy skill ... who gives a fuck about buying skills ? nobody ! but at that point , YOUR BELOVED ESIS WILL BE USELESS , AND WILL BE TT PRICE !
do you want to understand this or you pretend that you dont understand
 
And we can look on this thing like this...
Person A dont want to play anymore and wants to stop in the game, Person B wants to buy the avatar and play this game.

Who brings more money to MA avatar A or B.:cool:

The most simple equation , but dificult to understand for so many ...
 
The most simple equation , but dificult to understand for so many ...

its easy enough to understand it just depends what side of the fence you sit on. Are you the guy that wants to see new players join work their way up have a good time or the game or where if you dont buy avatar with 400k skills no point in trying to play it. Straight off the bat 99% of the potential depo players will be put off then tell me how your loot will be with your 400k avatar lol.
 
lol... just lol...

you want to buy an already equipped avatar and high skills to compete in MM? then you will need to invest a lot more than 20.000$ when starting from scratch xD

there was only some example , you people are so dumb , if someone make an example and say 200 k $ , you say omfg you crazy is to much , if you say 20 k$ omfg your stupid is too less ,
try to understand the equation that Valentin wrote it
Person A dont want to play anymore and wants to stop in the game, Person B wants to buy the avatar and play this game.

Who brings more money to MA avatar A or B.
I am Person A ---- lets just say you are Person B , you buy the Avatar with 10k$ (example) who brings more money in game ? ME NOT , YOU YES , and maybe you will bring even more players in game that put more money than you or same as you ingame . where is the problem ?
 
lol... just lol...

you want to buy an already equipped avatar and high skills to compete in MM? then you will need to invest a lot more than 20.000$ when starting from scratch xD

No, he just wants to sell his avatar and is now making up all different useless reasons and excuses.

Why not buy a preskilled avatar directly fro MA then? BS!

Well, I think it's good that not EVERYTHING is for sale
 
its easy enough to understand it just depends what side of the fence you sit on. Are you the guy that wants to see new players join work their way up have a good time or the game or where if you dont buy avatar with 400k skills no point in trying to play it. Straight off the bat 99% of the potential depo players will be put off then tell me how your loot will be with your 400k avatar lol.

the one who buys a 400 k skill avatar , will deposit 3/4/5 /10 k monthly idk but for sure he will not deposit 10 $ in 2 months like a newbie. so who will feed you lootpool ? that 500 players that deposit every month 10$ (60k $ . year) or that 20 players that deposit 3k $ / month (720k / year ) ?
 
the one who buys a 400 k skill avatar , will deposit 3/4/5 /10 k monthly idk but for sure he will not deposit 10 $ in 2 months like a newbie. so who will feed you lootpool ? that 500 players that deposit every month 10$ (60k $ . year) or that 20 players that deposit 3k $ / month (720k / year ) ?

Generally top players take from the game instead of give. If your buying an avatar for that amount your going to be buying the kit as well. So your taking from the game and at any point can sell your avatar and kit. So exactly what are ma gaining ?
 
No, he just wants to sell his avatar and is now making up all different useless reasons and excuses.

Why not buy a preskilled avatar directly fro MA then? BS!

Well, I think it's good that not EVERYTHING is for sale

Indeed , I want to sell my avatar , you all know that , MA knows that even , whats the problem ? maybe after that I will want to make another one and sell that even , or maybe two or three looking at the fact that ALT avatars are allowed in game , who cares ? Nobody
But I dont understand why some of you dont want to see and understand some point of view that someone else are giving to you ? and after that you are the only ones that are complaining about the system and returns and all of this , making cry rivers on forum , every 2 days . wtf is wrong with you people . we will see when all the valuable stuff in game that remained will go to tt price , what you will say in that day ?
cuz in last years MA done like this ==== chips 20 k ped---- you oh yes oh yes im buying --- 2 months after chip 500 ped .... people crying ///// MA rings , pets , mission galactica , shit on the moon , 20-30 - 50 k ped -----all of you buying , after 2 months , prices went to half , everybody crying .... DO YOU SEE even that the new stuff implemented by MA reduced prices for all the old stuff , like MM , imp / mod fap ?
or even you pretend to dont see it , or you just dont give a fuck , cuz is more simple .
 
B starting an avatar from scratch.

At this point I think you are here only to troll the others.

Retention rate in this game is very low, we have pretty much same number of players in the last years, because most of the players deposit few $, blow them all in a matter of hours/days and then forget about it.
When you buy something for a more consistent amount you don't give up so easy, you try more, deposit more, give it more tries.
As others said none want to play a game that traps you in, invest in your avatar, get skills and sell them for money... yeah right.
 
The most simple equation , but dificult to understand for so many ...

maybe because it is not that easy but you are too blind to see it. most of the time it happens like this:
player a wants to stop playing, he sells his items (or not) and stops. player b wants to play and would like to start higher. he cant or it is too expensive for him anyway but he starts the game on low level and either sticks to it or stops playing as well, so pretty much exactly the same as before. but IF he would have been willing to buy an avatar for a shitload of money before even testing the game means that he is batshit crazy anyway. or he already knows the game and would like to skip it and thus invests a lot into the game. as he cant right now or wont right now he just keeps playing and gambles a lot to raise his skills faster = lots of cycling to accomplish his goal.
player b in the meantime after 6 months of not being in the games misses it somehow and returns as he still has lots of skills on his avatar and wants to try new stuff.
now both players are playing the game again and both cycling. if player b had completely sold his account he wouldnt have returned as there are no bonds in the game for him anymore.

this is what reality looks like. always these idiots that take everything as black or white... jesus christ..
 
Generally top players take from the game instead of give. If your buying an avatar for that amount your going to be buying the kit as well. So your taking from the game and at any point can sell your avatar and kit. So exactly what are ma gaining ?

Is not in generally cuz not all top players are taking money out of the game , and indeed you will buy even a kit aswell , from a player , money go ingame , if you will sell the avatar again , MA took fee when you buy it , and will take a fee when you sell it , and that action buy-sell will take more than 1 year maybe cuz you wont pay thousents of dollars to play for 1 month , but still new buyer comes , new cash in game will come , and so on
 
this is what reality looks like. always these idiots that take everything as black or white... jesus christ..
you are living in a fantasy world and i will leave you there :zzz:
 
you are living in a fantasy world and i will leave you there :zzz:

yeah because everything in the real world is either black or white and there is NOTHING in between. you are a smart guy who definitely lives in the real world. there should be a restriction on who is allowed to reproduce because you wouldnt be.
 
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