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  1. #311
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    Something did change after that update for sure .... not only with the lyst :p

    Done several spots now, always 80-90% TT return (unamped/without multiplier), but, if I count % for sales .. I mostly get 100+% back (depending zones ofc), so I'm not focusing the TT return anymore but what I get back after sales.

    When using amps, this TT return will be less since you pay more / drop if you do not get a multiplier.
    Feedback from amp miners already confirmed it might drop to 60% TT return.
    Last edited by LeelooM; 10-04-2019 at 09:01.
    Ores - Enmatters - Treasures
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  2. #312
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    I get realy bad returns atm. Globals get rare, MU is down, hitrate is poor, and most of my runs are minus below 80%. A lot lyst and oil is also a pain, especial if you use a DSEC 30 seeker. Atm i better make a breake, as wast my peds and kill my fun on super bad returns.

  3. #313
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    ADDING info in the mining guide after more unamped/testing mining since the sept 2019 update.

    I have been mining in more different spots a few times again and again and again

    In all my runs HR AND TT returns of ores dropped a lot and this is where my losses where since my enm TT returns and HR where normal or even say equal as before the patch. In all those zones, if I would have been mining for ENM only I would have made nice profits cause all where above 100% TT return.
    No results on treasure for now.

    As for the multipliers, I'm getting mostly 1 multiplier / 100 drops meaning (when unamped) claim 7-8-9-10 and those do NOT make up for the TT losses.

    All I can do for now if I want to keep mining dual or ores, is adjust my prices and/or wait till more MU's go up and keep stocking those.

    Another thing I notice is when mining in a zone where another miner is active (I used to wait 15-30 min and then started mining again but I didn't now) my TT return NEVER dropped below 80% as it would have made a huge difference before the new patch where my TT return could even drop to 60-70%.
    Due to skills, finder? depth? No idea.

    EDIT : Apparently I'm getting 1 swirl = claim 13-14 every 600-700 drops but even that is not enough to make my numbers green again.
    Last edited by LeelooM; 10-06-2019 at 10:01.
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  4. #314
    Elite trance's Avatar
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    It seams they play around with mining. ( Mining 2.0 ? )
    In all my mining experience, i ever had some periods, where mining just got super bad for a longer time( like it is now ). If this hapen, then HR is low and claim size more small. Those periods most last for a longer time, some times weeks! Ofc, there is maybe one lucky day into the bad periode, so you get the hope it changed.
    Now, if you dont have a big stock of peds, then you will run out of probes and need to deposite. The only thing helping in this case of long bad, is to stop mining for a longer time, if you don't have enought peds to survive that bad periode or want do a deposite.

    At moment i pretty think, that they play around with mining. The lyst and oil pain, we have atm, at places where you normaly find other stuffs, is a sign of things, that they play around with mining. My problem on this, i use a lot a DSEC seeker 30, and i realy want avoid lyst and oil with that, about extracting all the time a lyst 5-7 is realy time consuming and also you get fast heavy, and it cost more extracting decay.
    Why must be all around lyst and oil? There are other cheap, no MU stuffs they could drop, at least if you use a preamped finder, in zones, where normaly no lyst and oil is to find. This making the use of such finders sensless. Also it make the use of enhancers sensless, if you find lyst and oil deeper as 1km... Mining atm looks very like a messed up system and very unbalanced to the whole market.

    My fun on mining is gone. There is no fun to find lyst and oil, most of the time and this with low HR and claim size. I miss the old mining days!

  5. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by trance View Post
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    It seams they play around with mining. ( Mining 2.0 ? )
    In all my mining experience, i ever had some periods, where mining just got super bad for a longer time( like it is now ). If this hapen, then HR is low and claim size more small. Those periods most last for a longer time, some times weeks! Ofc, there is maybe one lucky day into the bad periode, so you get the hope it changed.
    Now, if you dont have a big stock of peds, then you will run out of probes and need to deposite. The only thing helping in this case of long bad, is to stop mining for a longer time, if you don't have enought peds to survive that bad periode or want do a deposite.

    At moment i pretty think, that they play around with mining. The lyst and oil pain, we have atm, at places where you normaly find other stuffs, is a sign of things, that they play around with mining. My problem on this, i use a lot a DSEC seeker 30, and i realy want avoid lyst and oil with that, about extracting all the time a lyst 5-7 is realy time consuming and also you get fast heavy, and it cost more extracting decay.
    Why must be all around lyst and oil? There are other cheap, no MU stuffs they could drop, at least if you use a preamped finder, in zones, where normaly no lyst and oil is to find. This making the use of such finders sensless. Also it make the use of enhancers sensless, if you find lyst and oil deeper as 1km... Mining atm looks very like a messed up system and very unbalanced to the whole market.

    My fun on mining is gone. There is no fun to find lyst and oil, most of the time and this with low HR and claim size. I miss the old mining days!
    It really depends where you mine for the moment imo and the only place I'm getting lyst, where I didn't get it before is shinook.

    All other mining is normal only ores return is less.

    Overall TT return depends zones I'm mining also, in some zones I get 80-90% TT return but can make profit after sales ...

    In other zones I get 85-95% TT return but even after sales I do not make profit so those I stock and prolly avoid those zones as long as MU for those resources did no go up.

    If returns are lowered I do not mine with amps, cause those will give you even a lower TT return cause HR is lower. Again, some miners already told me if mining with amps, they get 60% TT return ...
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  6. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by trance View Post
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    A lot lyst and oil is also a pain, especial if you use a DSEC 30 seeker.
    I pretty much recommend never using a DSEC or most other pre-amped finders for enmatter. You're only getting 10 additional probes instead of 20 like you do for ore. At current prices, that's in the ballpark of paying for a 110% amp if you're just going for enmatter. If you're going for ore, it's similar in price to lower cost amps when you pencil it out, so it makes sense to just stick to ore (or treasure) with it.

  7. #317
    Elite Kerham's Avatar
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    I'm guessing they're trying to hit the sweet spot between boring no MU grinds and something more exciting, with big hof prospects and some MU to be had, at the expense of a more stable yet lowish tt roi (so, deffinitely bigger bankroll than, say, 2-3 years ago or even end of last year).

    Other than that, Leeloo, with all friendship and sympathy, your advices regarding high MU finders, amps and taxed areas are simply not correct. There are quite a few LAs which do justify some (controlled) risk in this direction.

    The biggest paradigm change which I am seeing is that of very high turnover done in semi-automatic manner. I would guess they want to prevent that due to crafting market not being big enough for it, but we will see.

  8. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerham View Post
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    I'm guessing they're trying to hit the sweet spot between boring no MU grinds and something more exciting, with big hof prospects and some MU to be had, at the expense of a more stable yet lowish tt roi (so, deffinitely bigger bankroll than, say, 2-3 years ago or even end of last year).

    Other than that, Leeloo, with all friendship and sympathy, your advices regarding high MU finders, amps and taxed areas are simply not correct. There are quite a few LAs which do justify some (controlled) risk in this direction.

    The biggest paradigm change which I am seeing is that of very high turnover done in semi-automatic manner. I would guess they want to prevent that due to crafting market not being big enough for it, but we will see.
    High MU L finders : It is never proven that TT return of finders will be payed back (I never believed that and will never do), any MU payed is a loss for the miner.

    Amps : Here again you pay MU so that is lost and as far as I see mining now, the standard TT return is 80% - 90% IF unamped (altought I managed to get 1 run over 100% TT return again today), if you go amped, your standard return will even go down to 60% TT return depending the amp used.

    LA-taxed mining : means you pay from your TT return so here again losses for the miner.

    This way, miners will need to stock up indeed a lot more and sell at the right time (as I always did before) but many will need to wait a lot longer as they used to or sell with losses, so need more depo's. So maybe we will see less miners in the next months/years.

    Most of the high lvl amp miners will have more losses than those unamped/low amp users cause they do not wait for MU's to go up, but just sell their big stacks asap or even TT some. Losses again.

    Sales : if these TT returns are going to be the standard a lot more ores will go up in % cause at 80% TT return everybody will need to sell for a lot more. This will ofc mean that crafters will need to pay more for the resources so everything will start costing more and if I see how many amps (not only amps) are sold / week or / month ... go figure it out...

    This is how I see if.
    Correct me if I'm wrong that it is gonna be a lot easier to loose peds as a miner than to gain some for sure if you do not like counting.

    And hoping that you get a biggy while mining ... well you can always hope ofc ...

    I'm just telling you what the numbers on my excel files tell me
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  9. #319
    Elite Kerham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeelooM View Post
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    High MU L finders : It is never proven that TT return of finders will be payed back (I never believed that and will never do), any MU payed is a loss for the miner.
    Decay of finder being considered not recuperated into claims,
    then,

    DSEC30 unamped, at 160%, in actual usage costs 105-106%.
    All available finders, be them L or UL, costs between 100,8% and 106%. Old style MD- finders cost at the lower scale but they have no depth to speak of, F105 and F106 are roughly 102% (like F212 and EFS at circa 120%) but they have average depth. For deep UL finders such as F106 tiered up you need to stick into the finder at least 4k ped (which otherwise could be circulated with a cheap L) and on top of that use enhancers to bring your average cost to 106-107% if I am not mistaken. Which is pretty much the same cost as Terra Masters at circa 115%, just that the latter require skill.

    Even MILF, if you buy it at 180%, in actual usage is 102,8% something.

    So in effect you're talking about a marginal difference, per tier of depth, and tradeoffs which are highly debatable (such as sticking bankroll into finder).

    And that is unamped. When you amp, particularly with Lvl3, 5 and D-Class, high depth and preamped finders are cheaper to use per ped spent than unamped TerraMaster or unamped F106 enhanced.

    As one can easily see, in the actual reality of the entropian miner, each finder and class of amplification has its role and meaning.

    Your claim would be correct only if the finder decay would be recovered into mining finds, something which neither me have seen to date no proof of.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeelooM View Post
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    Amps : Here again you pay MU so that is lost and as far as I see mining now, the standard TT return is 80% - 90% IF unamped (altought I managed to get 1 run over 100% TT return again today), if you go amped, your standard return will even go down to 60% TT return depending the amp used.
    Here is a worthy discussion about volatility per tier of amplification, but then again putting 4k into a F-106 ul vs amping F212 with lvl5 is not by any measure superior. Those k can carry one a very long way through various waves of tt return volatility and in correct areas can provide measurable constant 110% return after MU, as opposed to having to sell 10 ingots of blau at a time.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeelooM View Post
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    LA-taxed mining : means you pay from your TT return so here again losses for the miner.
    There are no areas ingame which could possibly come close to Medusa or New Switzerland LAs (obviously considering wave/window mining). I would pay hands down 4-5% LA tax to hit azure instead of ares, for example. Is simply not such a clear-cut claim. Particularly on Calypso, the mining fields composition and mobs population make easily LAs a go-to choice in good conditions.

    Just how many miners do you think fit into untaxed NE Shinook for lyst, gazz, belk and redulite? Not mentioning that it was for years the case that gazz was not dropping at Shinook, and there was only belk at 101% and sometimes redu, arguable if often enough. And also not mentioning that for redu best practice, particularly in the case of window mining, is d-class/lvl8 on high depth Terra, because it is not a capped ore like rugaritz, and not at all unamped/low amped. Which would indeed be the better choice if MA's choice of droprate control wouldn't be wavy.

    Even indoor can have its place, even with amps. It is not so much about chasing hofs, that is the bonus pleasure, in reality it's about MU/time. While I am not in this position and I have no interest into it, I totally understand why Gilowska, Poprygayka, Delharrea or Lindqvist (and I misspelled all of them for sure) would play the way they do or did.

    It is not at all the case for "don't do that", rather "be wary of that actually means". And no, unamped is not at all, by any measure, the golden goose of safety. With appropiate budget, I've seen way way better times and avg return with lvl2/3/5 than unamped, each with its own place and target. Speaking of excels, at 150k+ I am at 96,9% (including finders and excavators as not recuperated cost) tt roi (not including my 17k tower), most of it amped lvl2-5, with occasional D-Class runs. My worst volatility runs have been the too short ones (100 drops or so), nomatter if amped or unamped.

  10. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerham View Post
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    Here is a worthy discussion about volatility per tier of amplification, but then again putting 4k into a F-106 ul vs amping F212 with lvl5 is not by any measure superior. Those k can carry one a very long way through various waves of tt return volatility and in correct areas can provide measurable constant 110% return after MU, as opposed to having to sell 10 ingots of blau at a time.
    That last T10 costed around 1,5K I got that back with mining withing 9 days after tiering up. ^^
    All other tiering was payed off very fast so was worth it. That finder pays for itself. The hardcore miners in soc all have a tiered F-106 and they never regretted it 1 minute and keep tiering it up.

    In some cases I can just say very nice done, but that TT return is before the latest patch and not now.
    Before I was getting like 116-124% TT return (when using amp2/5) easy so very fun mining and cheap selling.

    What I see mostly :
    TT return 80-90%% minus LA tax, finder MU, decays will result very soon to 75-85% TT return if not lowered by amps. That is gonna hurt and I already see a lot of miners saying I quit mining.
    But we all have another way of mining, those that we like the most and get us the most profit.

    I just do not understand why people go taxed (except for the owners) for resources that can be mined untaxed also. Same for the ark moon deeds... maybe some go there for some hunting missions, but why would a miner go there.

    As for shinook, there are other spots to get belk/redu also and I never meet any 1 there

    Will see what the future brings, pls keep us posted

    Who's gonna be the big winner?
    MA ofcourse More depo's (for stocking/losses) + more fee to pay since ores are going up in prices.
    Ores - Enmatters - Treasures
    Miner's Dream - TICity - Platinum - C5
    The higher the year % - The bigger discount

    DEPTH ENHANCERS Level 1 - 9

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