Developer Notes #11 - Loot 2.0

Ace Flyster said:

Would not fix a thing.

If they introduced nancubes into loot (as a replacement to the tt), then people would simply stop crafting explosives. They wouldnt magically start crafting other things.


Rgds

Ace

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when people will stop crafting EP they WILL craft other things.
Crafters will craft.
Thats the thing about entropia, the addiction, that wont be stopped.

KijkkiJikki said:

There seems to be a misunderstanding of some re the changes to armour.

The minimum profession level requirement gets u UL armour that offers full protection until it hits minimum condition. If you don't meet the minium profession requirements then u continue to get the current arrangement of protection reduced in proportion to condition. So you will be no worse off than you are now.

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Good point. I'm not even sure if buying (L) armor will be more eco than unmaxed UL armor.

If anything... (L) demand might decrease, since they just negated one of the main benefits that (L) armors had over UL... assuming you have it maxed.

Me Really Never said:

yea i agree on that one. for their price they are far too powerful considering what an armor with that increase in protection would cost

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kidding right?

just 29 close dmg protection.
A shogun set does more protection and costs less. And is much cheaper to use then 5B plates.

wizz said:

kidding right?

just 29 close dmg protection.
A shogun set does more protection and costs less. And is much cheaper to use then 5B plates.

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you seem to misunderstand me. im talking about adding 5b to something viceroy or adj pixie. compare the added protection from 5b to an armor having the same stats as e.g. viceroy + 5b.

Me Really Never said:

yea i agree on that one. for their price they are far too powerful considering what an armor with that increase in protection would cost

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Not at all, you see only part of the picture. They are relatively inexpensive to acquire because you pay through your nose at the repair terminal for the convenience. Most L plates are better already, just scrambling for replacements is a pain if you don't plan ahead. But people are lazy (incl. yours truly) which earns MA money, so why should they nerf supplies there. Market price reflects the balance the system has already found, and unlike many other things has been fairly stable over a long time. I find this okay.

So loot 2.0 is hunting 2.0 ?

A special hunting bonus pool will be implemented that will distribute funds from various sources, including skill misses, PVP, marketing and special events, which will improve overall loot returns for all participants.

Guess miners and crafters will have to wait for loot 3.0 and 4.0?

Untill People start reporting better returns... With MA'S track record and stunt pulling ability and always failing to deliver... This is just another addition to the fails... Most likely scenario... This gets players coming back depositing boosting MA'S revenue only to find out all is still the same nothing changed... And the end result it still needs tweaking as it's in development phase what not... Update coming soon bla bla... But by that time it's too late as deposits have been made and money has been spent and actual mission completed... But all is not bad they JUST might be on the right track... Who knows.... Time will tell...

ADVICE 2.0.... hold back with the deposits for now untill there is actual proof things have changed.

Me Really Never said:

you seem to misunderstand me. im talking about adding 5b to something viceroy or adj pixie. compare the added protection from 5b to an armor having the same stats as e.g. viceroy + 5b.

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ah yes, but isnt that the same with weapon amps?
Compare a beast amped weapon with a weapon with the same stats as the amped weapon.
the beast adds 19 dmg for just 130 ped.
The melee trauma IV adds 20 dmg for just 50 ped.

I fail to see the differnce with the 5B plates (which I bougth for around 300 ped each btw...a long time ago )

San said:

Not at all, you see only part of the picture. They are relatively inexpensive to acquire because you pay through your nose at the repair terminal for the convenience. Most L plates are better already, just scrambling for replacements is a pain if you don't plan ahead. But people are lazy (incl. yours truly) which earns MA money, so why should they nerf supplies there. Market price reflects the balance the system has already found, and unlike many other things has been fairly stable over a long time. I find this okay.

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that strongly depends on the mob you are hunting though. when checking different stuff on the entropedia armor advisor it shows that some mobs would be better doing in pulsar 8. but that doesnt factor in their price (MU) and availability

I welcome the changes to the loot and skill system.

Incremental loot based on skills, or maybe rank is a great idea.
I often wondered if getting to the next skill rank, gave you more of a stackable resource than the previous rank.

Players liked the 10/10 hit ability rule, it was simple and easy to understand weapons
Expanding this to a new 1 – 100 economy/efficiency rating is fantastic news indeed.
I’ve always struggled with durability/economy of items, often asking myself “what does that really mean under the hood?”

If melee is made clear also with this regard, that is also welcome (even though not much choice with unlimited whips right now).

I’d like to see pets allocated with some special effects if training them more, and potentially more passive unlocks as they’re levelled. Give us a reason to keep training them please. It’s quite disappointing especially if training very rare pets that offer little for ownership.

‘Overkill damage’ is an interesting point of the new loot system, this suggests to me taming should be an extremely efficient hunting method.

Removing ammo is ok either way for me, and since we can carry a mobile TT’s it’s possible to buy more if you want too anyway. Or easy to convert shrapnel if we choose too.

I like the idea of new professions, and hunting specialisation.

With armour; you could actually go a step further, and suggest which armour is suitable for a mob (if scanning it). Even if that is planet specific information. i.e you only indicate the choice of caly armour for caly mobs.
Then we’ve got no excuses for making the right choices. Potential for armour sales maybe.

In conclusion I like the changes as long as loot is stable and can be trusted.
As this gives us confidence depositing for multiple amount of runs, that can be turned-over a lot of times.
if huge swings exist or loot pools are drained on certain mobs the core problem with wanting to play will not have been addressed.

I’m 100% behind the efforts to improve the game and look forward to implementation. Good work, thanks.

Cheers

Rick

Loot 2.0 ... Brilliant.

San said:

Not at all, you see only part of the picture. They are relatively inexpensive to acquire because you pay through your nose at the repair terminal for the convenience. Most L plates are better already, just scrambling for replacements is a pain if you don't plan ahead. But people are lazy (incl. yours truly) which earns MA money, so why should they nerf supplies there. Market price reflects the balance the system has already found, and unlike many other things has been fairly stable over a long time. I find this okay.

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Convenience sells. This is why MS owners can run space warp businesses. This is why generic fuses are one of the few items in hunting loot that still have markup.

The way I see it, Mindark has two options to boost this comatose economy:

Either inconvenience the living **** out of all of us and use that to generate renewable sources of markup. Example - ND's idea with the crafted TP tokens, or making all (L) vehicles incur movement decay

Or make crafted gear more attractive.

Very interesting notes !

Skills will matter

DPS will matter

How IMK II will be affected by this, we will see.
When reading the notes it seems like the "eco gap" when killing big ass mob with IMK II vs High DPS gun will be closed more or less. Or atleast it will be changed vs today's loot calculation.


So any ETA of 2.0 release ??

wizz said:

when people will stop crafting EP they WILL craft other things.
Crafters will craft.
Thats the thing about entropia, the addiction, that wont be stopped.

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No they won't.

When eps got introduced, crafting went from 400k per week, to 2m-6m per week.

If nano cubes were removed from tt, this would go back to the 400k per week.


Rgds

Ace

Finally a change in the loot!!!


The last experience in this game (2 months ago) resulted in horrible losses hunting with maxed weapons and a economy way above 2.95 dmg/pec. What makes me think every time i want to come back, "wait a second, 400 euros went away so damn fast the last time"!

Interesting read, i might have missed the question so i add it.

How are these changes applied to team hunts? Same issue today but this time some more specifics were given on loot calculation.

10 x low dps and individual skills low compared to mob lvl but time to kill mob is short and total dps is good, overkill small and total skills ok if calculations are based on team effort and not individual etc.

Will loot calculations use team totals? How are they applied to shared mobs?

Gurra said:

Will loot calculations use team totals? How are they applied to shared mobs?

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Well yeah, MA never fails to surprise us but in this case I would assume they must have though about the shared mobs. No way they've overlooked something so obvious.
If the dmg calculation is done "mob side" the formula would look like: total dps div mob HP and then it won't matter how many different shooters there were.

Actually the whole thing looks like a switch from dpp to dps. Well not a total switch ofc but it sure looks like a shift towards dps based gameplay. Spin up overall cycling, from MA's perspective makes perfect sense. Interesting they didn't figure this out sooner...

Assuming the overall turnover increases MA might even afford to lower their rake.


So big changes inevitably change the balance ingame. Whenever this happens the ones on the losing side will raise a shitstorm and the ones gaining the most will keep very quiet, as usual.
Enjoy the bliss as long as it lasts, the post loot 2.0 VU forum won't be a pretty sight...

Fifth said:

Actually the whole thing looks like a switch from dpp to dps. Well not a total switch ofc but it sure looks like a shift towards dps based gameplay. Spin up overall cycling, from MA's perspective makes perfect sense. Interesting they didn't figure this out sooner.

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I would be very careful with any such statements, cause DPS at the end of the day only benefits MA. If the changes go accordingly then dps should not be a problem, but currently having high dps without bankroll is suicide and still this benefits whom? MA.

I say better not worth knowing until now, the so called no loot was there to give us the best loot
then apart from having to change 2 lines of codes and can be add a new menu in addition to 10/10
I Think that the change will mainly make resent in the number of deposits that will arrive in MA.
The real problem is that it will surely happen at the same time that the summerboxes, is the real question to the players or economic interest?

This looks good... interesting times ahead!

M Rufen Power said:

I would be very careful with any such statements, cause DPS at the end of the day only benefits MA. If the changes go accordingly then dps should not be a problem, but currently having high dps without bankroll is suicide and still this benefits whom? MA.

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Sure, it'll benefit MA. House never loses!

Well but if seriously, we don't know how much the loot formula actually will change. MA has been pretty careful with rebalancing those last years--a smart thing to do in a trust-based economy.
Lets assume the loot for fast efficient kill will indeed be better. From where will the added bonus come from? From MA's pocket? Neah, it means that the reverse (loot for slow and inefficient kill) has to become worse. A zero sum game!
If they seriously want to go down that road, it'll mean you need a bigger bankroll in your current activity and the guy blasting away the big guns needs a somewhat smaller bankroll in the future. Either way MA comes out as a winner, that much is true...

Very interesting stuff ahead. I remember saying the same when they introduced the so called improved loot and later didn't look like improved as the big hofs were killed. But now it seems like they have tweaked it. Also this could mean a mod loot version

My consern is the devaluing of current items which seem to be the old new trend ... This will be sad if so.

Besides that, im excited for this to come

Fifth said:

Well yeah, MA never fails to surprise us but in this case I would assume they must have though about the shared mobs. No way they've overlooked something so obvious.
If the dmg calculation is done "mob side" the formula would look like: total dps div mob HP and then it won't matter how many different shooters there were.

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Yes if dps is the only factor in loot calculations for shared mobs (total loot and individual share) that shouldnt be an issue but if the other factors are included it becomes a bit different. Something more to test when this goes live

Will be interesting times... I predict the pages in this thread to increase to dynamicly huge amounts

I'm less optimistic than most of you seem to be, just because the information provided doesn't give me a clear idea of what is going to happen here.

This part, for example:

Bertha Bot said:

• Loot calculations will be optimized and improved to better factor in the various costs associated with hunting activity, including: healing, ammo consumption, buffs, tool and armor deterioration, attachments, and more.

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Does this mean that loot will be adjusted upwards depending on the amount spent on defence costs? In other words, will it no longer be advantageous to reduce defence costs as much as possible? Or does it mean the opposite?

Will using buffs now provide an additional loot advantage, as well as the existing efficiency advantage? If so then this could be the final nail for non-depositors (or anyone who doesn't buy a lot of boxes).

Oleg said:

I'm less optimistic than most of you seem to be, just because the information provided doesn't give me a clear idea of what is going to happen here.

This part, for example:



Does this mean that loot will be adjusted upwards depending on the amount spent on defence costs? In other words, will it no longer be advantageous to reduce defence costs as much as possible? Or does it mean the opposite?

Will using buffs now provide an additional loot advantage, as well as the existing efficiency advantage? If so then this could be the final nail for non-depositors (or anyone who doesn't buy a lot of boxes).

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yeah,im also scared being an naked mod restohunter,if defensecosts get compensated then having that edge is useless

"A new Economy rating parameter will be introduced, on a scale of 1-100, that indicates the efficiency of a tool and which influences loot calculations. This change from the once dominant damage/pec model will provide the design team with more freedom to release exciting and interesting items with a wider range of damage output and special effects. For example, our team will have the ability to create powerful new items that provide access to challenging and exciting content without dramatically increasing cost to play. Existing items will be assigned Economy values that reflect their relative efficiency to one another and to the entire array of items in the universe."

Read as: "As reward for your investments in dpp efficiency, we will now nerf your investments into the ground (flashbacks!)"

I'm so confused by how people are so overly optimistic/enthusiastic/excited/approving of a system that hasn't even rolled out yet...Did I miss another memo that was significantly less vague than these notes?

err.... Mining

Rocket192 said:

I don't see any mentions of mining or crafting.. but not much you can do with mining.. crafting still needs an overhaul.

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Are you serious? "not much you can do with mining?" for starters, MA could stop screwing with drop rates and drop areas for resources. In the last 9 months both pyrite and dianthus have been turned up and down from almost nothing to (1 global a day of @ 50 ped pyrite) to over 100 globals in a day with big hofs. There is a lot that can be done with mining, but my vote as a miner is that they stop messing with it every month or so and let miners that put in the effort to learn how and where to mine benefit from investing the time, effort, and equipment selection.

fluske said:

yeah,im also scared being an naked mod restohunter,if defensecosts get compensated then having that edge is useless

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Same here. The reward I enjoyed from my skill was being able to naked resto hunt. And now it sounds like we're going to need to wear armor in order to get this phantom boost to loot... This is all very vague and a bit alarming... And also it sounds like if you have high efficiency but you grind low mobs, you're going to be screwed.

My interpretation is that your overall "rating" will take into account all active equipment (I'm not actually sure how its going to be doing this for those of us to use multiple kill shots and gear...) And your overall rating will be compared to the level of the mob.. and there will be this sweet spot between your level of efficiency and the level of the mob that will grant you the optimal loot... And I really hope my interpretation of this is WRONG because this forces skilled players to hunt bigger.....

Oleg said:

I'm less optimistic than most of you seem to be, just because the information provided doesn't give me a clear idea of what is going to happen here.

This part, for example:



Does this mean that loot will be adjusted upwards depending on the amount spent on defence costs? In other words, will it no longer be advantageous to reduce defence costs as much as possible? Or does it mean the opposite?

Will using buffs now provide an additional loot advantage, as well as the existing efficiency advantage? If so then this could be the final nail for non-depositors (or anyone who doesn't buy a lot of boxes).

Click to expand...

Sounds like personal loot pool to me, which is good
And Yeah the buff thingi is scary.

I assume they mean if u are shooting fast (because of the buffs) meaning u are killing a mob fast, this would make the calculation different for the loot payout. In other words DPS.

Finally!!!!!

No more ammo on the loot, I do not know if they will give more items or I would welcome the good old gold coins and silver coins.

No matter what the changes are, I really hope (personally) after 14 years playing PE (old habits) the loot system will be much more fair.

In the current state it is almost impossible to make a hunting run of 200 peds or more, depending of what level of mob we are hunting and have any kind of return without a hof or a couple globals. Sometimes even a hof cannot pay the low return overall.

If all this changes is to be fair TO ALL PLAYERS and not to benefit players that are here since alpha or beta, that will be very much welcomed.

It is sad, that many people realize that many players have benefits from MA, I really do not care about it, all I care is a fair system.

People deposit money to have fun here, not to stress about getting broke everytime an average player deposits 50 dollars every week or every 2 days hopping a return or a big loot.

Personally I can say, it toke me all this time to get 2 uber loots, 1 over 10 years ago on mining in CND of 14k peds and a Argo kill of 6k.

I got more pissed of the tower in CND then the Argo one, since I never had a uber on mining in the planet. In fact I never had anything about 500 peds mining on the planet.

Still, they are talking only about hunting, in a way I do understand since it is the biggest profession in Entropia.

But what about crafting? And mining? These 2 professions are totally screwed up.

Explosives is the most ridiculous and unfair BP on crafting. The amount of money a person has to invest in the 20 ped / click bp is a casino gamble hopping to get a few ubers and hofs to get a return.

Mindark always said "The only income we have is from decay" we all know this is a lie. Auction taxes, CLD's sales, tp cost transport, I reall doubt this goes for the "loot poll".

Loot should always be relative to the skill of the player, the tools he uses and in case of hunting the type of mobs he kills and efficiency.

This might be the most positive update ever done in EU since the changes in 2005 or so when they removed the peds from the loot.

Make it fair for all MA. Your faithful clients will appreciate it. I know, I will.