Question: Mining headscratcher, deposits exist where none should exist.

R4tt3xx

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Alexis Sky Greenstar
So while testing another wild little hypothesis, I was mining straight line on Caly, +- 27m from drop to drop (75% shorter than any sane miner would), 1st double drop, nrf, moved 27m, 2nd double drop, double claim, 32m BEHIND me.

I was absolutely shocked, what I just did should be impossible, I moved 27m back to my previous coordinates and confirmed that I indeed should have found deposits on my 1st attempt.

The only conclusion that I can draw is that if you move a sufficient distance away from a previous coordinate set, this allows the game to "re-roll the dice" as it were.

I will be testing this a bit more with a 32m gap between attempts and see how many occurrences of the above I can find.

L8r and happy mining...
 
"Mining claims are not in the ground" :wise: ... just a feature of the dynamic loot 1.0 system :laugh:
There are some "protection" mechanisms in place though, like dropping over and over in the (almost) same position ain't gonna produce claims after 1st drop...
 
"Mining claims are not in the ground" :wise: ... just a feature of the dynamic loot 1.0 system :laugh:
There are some "protection" mechanisms in place though, like dropping over and over in the (almost) same position ain't gonna produce claims after 1st drop...

Of course they are not in the "ground", they do not even exist until an event calls for their creation, but for that creation occurring at a location that I have already checked, is just a bit disturbing.
 
it has just happened once though. pretty much every miner has had such events happen. but very rarely. it could have been that just enough time has passed to recheck the position for a possible find.
without being able to reproduce it in a timely manner it could be basically anything...
 
it has just happened once though. pretty much every miner has had such events happen. but very rarely. it could have been that just enough time has passed to recheck the position for a possible find.
without being able to reproduce it in a timely manner it could be basically anything...

I would have to guess the time between both events would be less than a minute. Thanks to the dynamic system, any sort of respawn mechanic is ruled out.
 
I would have to guess the time between both events would be less than a minute. Thanks to the dynamic system, any sort of respawn mechanic is ruled out.

what makes you think that respawn is ruled out??

there was once someone who did a test. he did autodrop on the same spot all the time. and he did find more ressources than just once at start. there are respawns / timer resets / whatever u wanne call it and those do happen inbetween 2 drops as well. just a question of probability.
 
should be impossible

If the observations do not corroborate your theory, it's the theory that needs to change.

This doesn't decisively disprove the "deposits are in the ground" theory, just the "and you're guaranteed to find them" part.
 
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It's also possible that a find has a % chance of being found, even if it exists.

In which case, your first drop failed the % chance to "find the find", and the next drop "found the find", when it "passed" the % chance to find.
 
what makes you think that respawn is ruled out??

there was once someone who did a test. he did autodrop on the same spot all the time. and he did find more ressources than just once at start. there are respawns / timer resets / whatever u wanne call it and those do happen inbetween 2 drops as well. just a question of probability.

So can I say that at a certain time, coordinate sets x,y activate ?
 
If the observations do not corroborate your theory, it's the theory that needs to change.

This doesn't decisively disprove the "deposits are in the ground" theory, just the "and you're guaranteed to find them" part.

Agreed. ...........
 
It's also possible that a find has a % chance of being found, even if it exists.

In which case, your first drop failed the % chance to "find the find", and the next drop "found the find", when it "passed" the % chance to find.

That is very possible yes, I think the key is the variable t, which stands for time ...

Coordinate set x,y can only be activated at time index t. Which would then make EU more of a skill game than actual luck.
 
what makes you think that respawn is ruled out??

there was once someone who did a test. he did autodrop on the same spot all the time. and he did find more ressources than just once at start. there are respawns / timer resets / whatever u wanne call it and those do happen inbetween 2 drops as well. just a question of probability.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am ruling this out based on a test. Ye I just tested this..

Took a tt noob finder, stood at a random location, autodrop on... ZERO hits. 2nd test, started at the same location but just moved forwards. 11 hits ...

Ye Im calling BS on this one..
 
It's also possible that a find has a % chance of being found, even if it exists.

In which case, your first drop failed the % chance to "find the find", and the next drop "found the find", when it "passed" the % chance to find.

what i was thinking
but well, without an answer from mindark, we can't know
 
This has always been the case since the mining system reverted back in early 2014.

Nothing new here... game doesn't work like you think. claims are generated when you drop a probe... they don't exist in the ground beforehand.. nor does the system track the search are of the previous drop.

The only factor that matters in regards to hit % is search radius, which corrolates directly to your claim %... i think the standard hit average is 27.1%, but don't quote me on that.. you can use enhancers to increase this %, but they're too expensive and won't change your average TT return in the long run. The only mechanism to increase TT% is claim size adjustments, which don't exist in game.

at least not until we get rings/enhancers that add X% to claim size at the expense of zero finder decay or increased probe/use.
 
This has always been the case since the mining system reverted back in early 2014.

Nothing new here... game doesn't work like you think. claims are generated when you drop a probe... they don't exist in the ground beforehand.. nor does the system track the search are of the previous drop.

The only factor that matters in regards to hit % is search radius, which corrolates directly to your claim %... i think the standard hit average is 27.1%, but don't quote me on that.. you can use enhancers to increase this %, but they're too expensive and won't change your average TT return in the long run. The only mechanism to increase TT% is claim size adjustments, which don't exist in game.

at least not until we get rings/enhancers that add X% to claim size at the expense of zero finder decay or increased probe/use.

If this is the case as you say, then i'm sure we should all stray away from mining. In hunting, as your grow in DPP your TT return grows; this is a byproduct of the loot pool theory. However in mining, there is no "efficiency", meaning we are kinda just giving MA money it seems (90% return) if what you say is true. You are a veteran miner so I do believe what you say. Could this also be for crafting as well?

I used to hear a famous mining theory in my soc that all three professions have loot pools. In mining, if you drop a probe and it is NRF, the system will create a claim with random size (taken from the pool) and place it in the "server" with exact coordinate and depth. I always believed this was true as it makes the most sense.
 
If this is the case as you say, then i'm sure we should all stray away from mining. In hunting, as your grow in DPP your TT return grows; this is a byproduct of the loot pool theory. However in mining, there is no "efficiency", meaning we are kinda just giving MA money it seems (90% return) if what you say is true. You are a veteran miner so I do believe what you say. Could this also be for crafting as well?

I used to hear a famous mining theory in my soc that all three professions have loot pools. In mining, if you drop a probe and it is NRF, the system will create a claim with random size (taken from the pool) and place it in the "server" with exact coordinate and depth. I always believed this was true as it makes the most sense.

1) yes I believe crafting operates the same way. I'm not a crafter so I don't know much. There is no way to realistically increase efficiency as mining. MA makes money from decay.. they take 10% on average to be exact. How ammo and proves factor in is unknown to me, but they certainly don't take a full 10% of that or hunters would be broke.

2) no the server doesn't replace resource coordinates. As we know, resources are on waves.. or the resources worth anything are on waves.. all that means is you get a fixed TT of these resources per hour. That's obviously affected by the amount of that resource turned over/crafted in the last hour.

This is why you see 10k narc/cald towers as the markup skyrockets and there's little availability on auction. When huge volumes of a resource is crafted, hofs are produced on that resource soon thereafter.

Regardless here's a balancing mechanism that should result in every avatar achieving 91% TT in mining regardless of their decay. Even using decay heavy tools like a mod exc only alters TT return in theory by 0.52%.. which is negligent in relation to the speed boost you get. Of course, in mining, turnover speed directly correlates to profit.

I'm not sure how the balancing mechanism works. But EU utilizes parimutuel wagering.. so in order to best that 91% figure, you have to be consistent. This means always using the same amp or ped/drop setup and always being indoors or outdoors.
You can't lose 20k TT indoors and make it back outdoors over months.. I tried and it doesn't work that way. If you don't have the bankroll to endure the losses indoors until you hit your 300x multis, don't go indoors.

Of course cycles/balancing mechanism/sine waves... or whatever you want to call them. Can be relatively predictable and you can exploit this by "going indoors at the right time."

In sum, there's two mechanisms of return in mining.. personal cycles (aka 91% theory).. and parimutuel wagerin jackpots (think ATHs and 5-digit that aren't kickbacks and put a miner over 91% TT). The former is predictable if you're diligent and consistent.. the latter is based on universe-wide input vs output (hence the 115k ATH I attempted to predict but was off by one day).


Edit: inb4 hate/disagreement.

Disclosure: my hypothesis is based on my 5 years of tracking on spreadsheets (obsessively) and my own experiences in game.
 
I'm not sure how the balancing mechanism works. But EU utilizes parimutuel wagering.. so in order to best that 91% figure, you have to be consistent. This means always using the same amp or ped/drop setup and always being indoors or outdoors.
You can't lose 20k TT indoors and make it back outdoors over months.. I tried and it doesn't work that way. If you don't have the bankroll to endure the losses indoors until you hit your 300x multis, don't go indoors.

Of course cycles/balancing mechanism/sine waves... or whatever you want to call them. Can be relatively predictable and you can exploit this by "going indoors at the right time."

I do not know about the balancing mechanism neither, but being consistent usually is the best way when cycling big amount of peds each day to be able to manipulate/exploit the waves of good hitrate and big sized hits.

Although I do not believe being too consistent is good at lower levels of cycling, especially when you try to hit rare ores with low amps. Inconsistent (outdoor) mining with swapping low lvl amps (lvl 1-5) and finders can be profitable if you learn to adapt to the increased volatility you create by swapping amps and finders. Also mining effiency at low level outdoor cycling lies in how good you are at choosing right amp and depths in the right area and timing.

This combined with learning the more irregular pattern of waves this type of mining creates can be very profitable if done right, although I would believe it would destroy ones pedcard if used indoor amped mining ;)
 
If this is the case as you say, then i'm sure we should all stray away from mining. In hunting, as your grow in DPP your TT return grows; this is a byproduct of the loot pool theory. However in mining, there is no "efficiency", meaning we are kinda just giving MA money it seems (90% return) if what you say is true. You are a veteran miner so I do believe what you say. Could this also be for crafting as well?

I used to hear a famous mining theory in my soc that all three professions have loot pools. In mining, if you drop a probe and it is NRF, the system will create a claim with random size (taken from the pool) and place it in the "server" with exact coordinate and depth. I always believed this was true as it makes the most sense.

it's not working like that
the bigger your mining detector is (without amp), the biggest your claims will be (of course with having the skills needed for the gear)

my disciples rarely find a IV or a V in ore, case is i rarely find a III or a IV
 
How far can you run between auto-drops if you have maximum acceleration buff?
 
1) yes I believe crafting operates the same way. I'm not a crafter so I don't know much. There is no way to realistically increase efficiency as mining. MA makes money from decay.. they take 10% on average to be exact. How ammo and proves factor in is unknown to me, but they certainly don't take a full 10% of that or hunters would be broke.
crafting is based on skills, higher they will be, higher your average return will be (without counting globs or hofs)

2) no the server doesn't replace resource coordinates. As we know, resources are on waves.. or the resources worth anything are on waves.. all that means is you get a fixed TT of these resources per hour. That's obviously affected by the amount of that resource turned over/crafted in the last hour.
if the system is well modelized, that can't be, ressources like lyst, oil, narca, belk etc ... can't act in "waves" (from crafting uses)

You can't lose 20k TT indoors and make it back outdoors over months.. I tried and it doesn't work that way. If you don't have the bankroll to endure the losses indoors until you hit your 300x multis, don't go indoors.
agree, even make it back indoors too, i don't believe in personnal loot pool

Of course cycles/balancing mechanism/sine waves... or whatever you want to call them. Can be relatively predictable and you can exploit this by "going indoors at the right time."
i know just 2 waves in caly system, shrooms and elm waves

In sum, there's two mechanisms of return in mining.. personal cycles (aka 91% theory).. and parimutuel wagerin jackpots (think ATHs and 5-digit that aren't kickbacks and put a miner over 91% TT). The former is predictable if you're diligent and consistent.. the latter is based on universe-wide input vs output (hence the 115k ATH I attempted to predict but was off by one day).
if personnal cycle means personnal luck then yes
but you can't really predict how the mats are used by whole crafters in game
 
I have to agree with others on this not being anything conclusive. I've seen a few posts here in the past about similar occurrences. It's pretty well established that claims aren't "in the ground", so my guess (no data to back this one up) is that after a drop, you either need to travel so far or wait long enough for the chance of another drop to hit something (assuming you used the full finder radius and found nothing previously) to be > 0%.

It's possible there is a check in the code right when you drop a probe to see if you've dropped in that radius within time t. If t ~ 0, your hit rate will be near 0%, but as t increases, you would approach a near 30% average hit rate. Could be it's not a gradation either, but just a sudden shift to "normal" hit rates after a certain amount of time. Again, no idea for sure, but that's just one way it could work based on random chance of a find rather than the in the ground theories.
 
to understand the system, we don't need to know if the ressource was in the ground before or after the process of luck
 
If this is the case as you say, then i'm sure we should all stray away from mining. In hunting, as your grow in DPP your TT return grows; this is a byproduct of the loot pool theory. However in mining, there is no "efficiency", meaning we are kinda just giving MA money it seems (90% return) if what you say is true. You are a veteran miner so I do believe what you say. Could this also be for crafting as well?

I used to hear a famous mining theory in my soc that all three professions have loot pools. In mining, if you drop a probe and it is NRF, the system will create a claim with random size (taken from the pool) and place it in the "server" with exact coordinate and depth. I always believed this was true as it makes the most sense.

Back in the day.... The coordinate sets in one area could be used to find resources in other areas.

If one found a claim at xx543 yy123, one only had to move 1km to find another existing claim. Two or more miners, created a ping pong effect with the coordinates of claims acting as the ball.
 
to understand the system, we don't need to know if the resource was in the ground before or after the process of luck

The resources are not in the ground, it exists more like a potential find. Think of it like this, in a set area lets say a server, there exists say 1000 possible resource locations out of a max of 4096 at the time of reference, these points are evenly distributed throughout the server but remain in constant flux, changes in the available loot, change the number of available points so too does the loot wave, which in my opinion drains possible resources from one server and allocates it to another, creating a very dynamic feel.
 
I seem to have found a way to replicate this issue and will be conducting tests as soon as I am able to deposit... This issue is related to the assumed conclusion that you cannot mine over server boundaries.

Let me post an explanation quickly. You are at the intersection of four servers, ie in the corner of one server bordering three others, you drop a probe expecting the probe to search like normal... but it does not, it only searches on in the server you are in. A bit later you cross the border and accidently drop again, triggering a new search on a new server, which results in a hit within the radius of the previous drop.

This is an interesting and possibly serious flaw in the game's design.

Lets accept my assumption that potential claims spawn around an avatar when an action is performed. Crossing a server border would cause a server to spawn claims based on the setup of the new avatar, causing the claims of other miners in the area to disappear.

If the above is the case, the best way to mine would be with a vehicle. Using a vehicle should cause your avatar to despawn, leaving the vehicle would trigger a spawn, triggering the potential mining array.
 
So while testing another wild little hypothesis, I was mining straight line on Caly, +- 27m from drop to drop (75% shorter than any sane miner would), 1st double drop, nrf, moved 27m, 2nd double drop, double claim, 32m BEHIND me.

I was absolutely shocked, what I just did should be impossible, I moved 27m back to my previous coordinates and confirmed that I indeed should have found deposits on my 1st attempt.

I hit my first tower that way, but that was long time agp :)
 
Finders has an "average" search depth, maybe it searched at the wrong depth for you to find it on the first drop :) :scratch2:
 
I am now able to consistently obtain this result. Goto coordinate X,Y, get nothing. goto coordinate X1,Y1 where the distance is about 27m from x,y and find deposits where none should exist. The new mining sheet predicts that it should happen, and depending on variables outside of the scope of the mining sheet, it does !!!
 
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