Mining returns

Kerham said:

I don't want to sound patronizing, but since is this new loot announced, maybe use whatever setup is comfortable (as in whatever you can do alot of times) and start from there to see what works. It doesn't really matter if is hunting, mining or crafting, new or old loot, you need to have always a "control matrix" in place. That is, a cheap (relative to your means) operation which you can repeat & tweak until you feel it works and then see if scaling works (it never does in a direct proportional scale).

On topic, average without multipliers between 70 and 80 sounds correct.

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Average without multipliers between 70 and 80 may sound correct but it`s not right
(+ I don`t get the multipliers)

Regarding the confortable setup: well, I can recognize a good advice when I see one.
The problem is 20-50$ runs is the max I`m comfortable with.
However:
1.some people here say they`re to small.
2. even with these small runs I still can`t get 90% tt returns anymore, unless I`m prepared to do hundreds (!) of runs with LESS than 70% tt return, until I`ll hit a large multiplier (maybe!).
(I suppose it`s because of what Alin and other people here said, about less small / medium multipliers)
So basically I`m at the point where I start to believe they don`t need the 20-50$/run players, and they`ll f**k us and steal whatever they can until we`ll just leave.

Yep... same. For the last ~month and a half the returns have been... what I would call "odd".

tldr - I have no empirical evidence, but I will tell you over about 15000 probes the last month or so I am having MUCH better results with (L) finders. Both the pre-amped and the unamped versions. My maxed F-106, F-105, and even the Terramaster Goldrush are failing miserably. I also tried an Omegatron MD-40.

I dont like using (L) stuff. I never have, but the results have been convincing enough to me that I am currently selling all of my UL finders......

In terms of results.

I have great runs, usually the result of a HOF. And then I have extremely, terrible runs.

I will say for the record, I am mining on FOMA. I do this all the time (and a little on Monria or AU) so I am used to the swings, but it definitely feels like something has changed. The swings are greater and even the mineral compositions seem to have changed. I dont find as much Lyst or Oil...

I left Monria and refuse to go back after 3 runs over 4 days that left a sub 20% return, and I know from the chatter I am not the only one. I personally taxied another player from there for the same reason.

So, going back to FOMA, the results are not awful all the time, but definitely different. So it seems to be a global issue no pun intended.

In order to break even, I have to hit multiple small hofs, or several globals. Which, by the way is also interesting because I dont global hardly ever and just hit small hofs. The opposite was true for years prior to last month.

Anyway - all of that is probably not helpful, but I would just raise my hand and say yep, I've noticed the entire mining system feels different too and I'm having mixed results, I know others who are having terrible results. Currently I havent heard of anyone doing "great".

Count0 said:

The problem is 20-50$ runs is the max I`m comfortable with.

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Then unamped (reduced volatility) enmatter (same) planetside (same) in a single field (not 40 resources from 5 different places), two runs a day with 3-4 hours in-between (to refresh the spawn/seed, I think is enough).

Also there is a difference between "run" and "total cost". If your budget is 500 ped, then your run is actually 50 ped.

Granted you don't get rich or anything, but at least you'll be able to see things differently.

Kerham said:

Then unamped (reduced volatility) enmatter (same) planetside (same) in a single field (not 40 resources from 5 different places), two runs a day with 3-4 hours in-between (to refresh the spawn/seed, I think is enough).

Also there is a difference between "run" and "total cost". If your budget is 500 ped, then your run is actually 50 ped.

Granted you don't get rich or anything, but at least you'll be able to see things differently.

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Bankroll is well over 15k peds.
Mining only enmats = lower average MU.
40 different resources in storage is actually better then 3-5 resources, this allows you to sell when each resource reaches a peak / when demand is higher, resulting in even higher average MU.
Most people won`t believe this, but my problem is not the MU (I have my ways of finding MU / getting max MU for my stuff).
My problem is the fucking 69% tt return.

Count0 said:

Bankroll is well over 15k peds.
Mining only enmats = lower average MU.
40 different resources in storage is actually better then 3-5 resources, this allows you to sell when each resource reaches a peak / when demand is higher, resulting in even higher average MU.
Most people won`t believe this, but my problem is not the MU (I have my ways of finding MU / getting max MU for my stuff).
My problem is the fucking 69% tt return.

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Thus is my current dilemma and that of many miners.. when we get on ATH waves like this... i.e. paying back hunting/crafting loses with foma aths... TT returns absolutely blow for the rest of us. Just gotta keep dropping and wait out the storm.

And again:

Run11:
TT in: 196 peds (1 x lvl 3 amp + probes)
TT out: 163 peds
% return: 83%
Run 12:
TT in: 273.5 peds (1 x lvl 5 amp + probes)
TT out: 124 peds
% return: 45% !!!!!

Total in: 196+273.5 = 469.5
Total out: 163 + 124 = 287
Average % return: 61% !!!

This is it, I had enough of this BS.

OP updated, will make sure to bump it up once in a while, so all potential new players looking for info could see it.
It`s impossible to keep going with these returns.
Will have to find other ways to "play" and get some peds back.

Lessons learned: "eco" is for idiots, MU is for idiots, skills and gear are for idiots willing to offer their wallet to MA.

Count0 said:

And again:

Run11:
TT in: 196 peds (1 x lvl 3 amp + probes)
TT out: 163 peds
% return: 83%
Run 12:
TT in: 273.5 peds (1 x lvl 5 amp + probes)
TT out: 124 peds
% return: 45% !!!!!

Total in: 196+273.5 = 469.5
Total out: 163 + 124 = 287
Average % return: 61% !!!

This is it, I had enough of this BS.

OP updated, will make sure to bump it up once in a while, so all potential new players looking for info could see it.
It`s impossible to play with these returns.

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What it sounds like you're asking for is the mining system dubbed "claim size V" that we got in 2014.. it was utter dog shit. you'd go out and mine and GUARANTEE 85-95% return every 100 drops. It was boring as fuck and players quit over it. You can't have consistency and also have fun and big hofs.

start doing runs of 300+ drops.

The community needs to start figuring out what they really want because you cannot have it both ways.

Volatility pays for the big hits/multipliers.
Volatility ensures there is a risk for overfarming and keeps markup from crashing (set aside explosives)
Volatility requires intelligent analysis to lower risk in the field

Lack of volatility results in boredom, lower risk vs reward, little incentive to risk big, but is mostly steady.
Lack of volatility results in overfarming, lazy playing, causes markup crashes.

Which is it going to be?

Rocket192 said:

What it sounds like you're asking for is the mining system dubbed "claim size V" that we got in 2014.. it was utter dog shit. you'd go out and mine and GUARANTEE 85-95% return every 100 drops. It was boring as fuck and players quit over it. You can't have consistency and also have fun and big hofs.

start doing runs of 300+ drops.

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1. No, I don`t fucking want to put more than $50 at any time in a game session of less than 2 hours.
2. Why do you think I didn`t do runs of 300 drops in the past? and how did you come with this magic 300 drops number anyway?
3. If I do 300+ drops runs and I get same returns are you willing to pay the difference up to 90% tt return?
Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is?
Or you just want to troll? It`s the last thing I need after a run with 45% tt return.

atomicstorm said:

The community needs to start figuring out what they really want because you cannot have it both ways.

Volatility pays for the big hits/multipliers.
Volatility ensures there is a risk for overfarming and keeps markup from crashing (set aside explosives)
Volatility requires intelligent analysis to lower risk in the field

Lack of volatility results in boredom, lower risk vs reward, little incentive to risk big, but is mostly steady.
Lack of volatility results in overfarming, lazy playing, causes markup crashes.

Which is it going to be?

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I`ll comment only on this part: "Volatility pays for the big hits/multipliers."
1. Is this volatility (45% tt return runs planetside) normal for level 3 amps and level 5 amps??
Then what can you expect at level 8 amps? level 10 amps? level 13 amps?
2. Even if this is normal (which I don`t think so), then where are my fucking multipliers in 10 years??? I didn`t get anything above 2.6k and I mined mostly amped, including on FOMA.
3. I just cycled 2.5k and barely got a 60 pedder, and 67% tt return overall. If I would`ve done this even on small mobs like kerbs, I surely could`ve get more multipliers.

I think there is no need to comment for the rest.

Who said you were due multipliers? If no personal loot pool, then you can never be due.

For returns, perhaps.. just perhaps.. you are trying to mine a place that has either been mined or whose resources that are in that area and at that depth are not available/capped/doesnt exist.

If i logged every kill, you could take any excerpt of data and see a 45% return along the wave. The important distinction is that i know this, so i dont cherry pick the data, and i know that 150ped runs amping with a lvl3 or 5 amp isnt a run. If your runs are only 150ped, you shouldnt be amping. See thread on pcf called bankroll management.

If there's one thing I'm not it's a troll...

I've been mining in EU since 2011... I've seen much more dramatic changes than you and I have much more experience than you. I am NOT disagreeing with you that there appears to be an increase in variance. If it is not intentional, these variance boost typically occur when there are less people mining and there are a plethora of massive hofs. Statistically, both of these events have taken place this month, so it's reasonable to conclude that right now is not a good time to mine in terms of TT %... however, markups seem to be rising which is a result of changes MA made to crafting as well as the volatility causing a lot of miners to quit.

If you're asking for less volatility i suggest hunting or go mine unamped instead... at least for the next couple of weeks. The system will not change back to "claim size V." That system was a catastrophe that resulted in thousands of signatures on a forum petition (more than ep4 got from my memory). This is the way mining is designed. If you cannot sustain the losses you log off or go do a different activity for a while.

Alternatively, I've had changes of luck when changing planets. This helps often, but I do not know why.

I'm sure i could stop using d-class amps and not lose so much so quickly, but i'm a moron and i have the necessary bankroll. The day I get sub-90% returns on 250k cycled would be my last day in EU. My logs say that I would level out to 92-102% TT every 100k cycled or so... now, for 2017, my logs indicate the amount cycled is closer to 200-250k in order to "level out."

TL;DR if you can't sustain 80-82% returns for 200k cycled at 6 ped/drop (revise this for your own cost/drop), then do not mine because your ROR is too high.

Rocket192 said:

TL;DR if you can't sustain 80-82% returns for 200k cycled at 6 ped/drop (revise this for your own cost/drop), then do not mine because your ROR is too high.

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I`ll pretend I didn`t see the part where you say that you saw more things than me in EU since 2011 (although I`ve been here since 2006... )

But anyways, somehow you made it to the same result as me.
So yes, indeed, I`ll just stop mining.
I guess any players willing to cycle 500 peds ($50) into a 60-90 minutes gaming session (average players?) will / should eventually do this, right?
And also, do any of you guys think this is good for the game? And for any of us?...

Mining hasn't seen a face lift worth a damn since... forever.

You can tweak your set up a tiny bit here and there, but the rest is still mostly smoke and fog.

I've been sitting at about 60-70% returns for about two weeks. It's been consistently poor. Not long chains of NRF, but the claims average lower even when I sit at the same hit rate as before.

I have my doubts that these professions are disconnected. I guess we should all just keep an eye out.

It looks like there are multiple reports of 60-70% tt returns.
Noobs and old-timers, better consider this.
It`s either MA is simply stealing money for some marketing stunt (a big ATH coming?) or something is broken and they need to fix their shit.
I`n both cases, go mining at your own risk.

I have 2-3 amps to finish from yesterday, but I'll be posting a loss of 4100 in my log. I'll throw in my observations and feedback as well. The fact that I had 18k profit last month skews any meaningful hypothesis I could come up with, but 80.07% returns outdoors, over 50k cycle, is rather pathetic.

My mining returns are just fine, but a couple years back i went 6 months with really bad returns are a VU could just be coincidence though. To blame your returns on loot 2,0 is just to early to tell. People who doing well hardly ever shout about it, but people who loose a lot cry the loudest.

bigdaddy trim said:

My mining returns are just fine, but a couple years back i went 6 months with really bad returns are a VU could just be coincidence though. To blame your returns on loot 2,0 is just to early to tell. People who doing well hardly ever shout about it, but people who loose a lot cry the loudest.

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You won`t hear / see me saying a word if I lose 2k over 20k cycle.
I`m gonna make some noise though if I lose 2k over a 6k cycle.
(just random figures to make a point regarding the %s)

My thread started BEFORE loot 2.0, same as the logs of other people reporting returns under 90% or even 80%.
I don`t think t something to do with loot 2.0.
As I said before, it`s either MA is simply stealing money for some marketing stunt (a big ATH coming?) or something is broken and they need to fix their shit.
Again, there is NO REASON for anyone to accept this bullshit from MA.
60%-80% is bullshit and it`s NOT possible to play with such returns!

You're pushing too hard.

People in general are pushing too hard. If you respond to shitty loot by amping and cycling more, you're giving the system positive feedback, and loot is only likely to get shittier yet.

If you've only got two hours to play, it's understandably hard to cut short after 40 unamped drops and kill punies for the rest of your time - but it's the only way to let the system know you don't like it. It doesn't matter if 'the system' here refers to an intern playing with sliders, program playing with sliders or something else - whatever there is, don't give it positive feedback.

P.S. had a 55% run yesterday, and it was so unusually bad that I even went to sweat some.

P.P.S. and "ferry tail" is an old joke that (to my knowledge) originated in this thread.

Loot is fine , markups in other side is is s........

Vadio said:

Loot is fine , markups in other side is is s........

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my markup average has increased substantially in June.. The issue is definitely TT returns... but mining gets like this occasionally and I'm sure we'll all level out to 90% or better in time.

Haruto Rat said:

You're pushing too hard.

People in general are pushing too hard. If you respond to shitty loot by amping and cycling more, you're giving the system positive feedback, and loot is only likely to get shittier yet.

If you've only got two hours to play, it's understandably hard to cut short after 40 unamped drops and kill punies for the rest of your time - but it's the only way to let the system know you don't like it. It doesn't matter if 'the system' here refers to an intern playing with sliders, program playing with sliders or something else - whatever there is, don't give it positive feedback.

P.S. had a 55% run yesterday, and it was so unusually bad that I even went to sweat some.

P.P.S. and "ferry tail" is an old joke that (to my knowledge) originated in this thread.

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After reading again that old thread i just remembered people notifying about low returns.. for the reasons explained in that thread.

Your mining runs are way too short.

check after 10k drops unamped or max level 5 amp.

Double that if you are doing d-class or level 8

Dont bother calculating if you are using any bigger amp becoz no ore/enmatter can make up for the mark up burned


I read rockets post about breaking out at 100k cycled and it is almost right on my logs too.

crazyqpp said:

I read rockets post about breaking out at 100k cycled and it is almost right on my logs too.

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Hence my comment about a +9-10k July... if not more. which is fine by me. If I have another month of sub-80% i'll probably keep dropping or even go indoors and get me that ath.

crazyqpp said:

Your mining runs are way too short.

check after 10k drops unamped or max level 5 amp.

Double that if you are doing d-class or level 8

Dont bother calculating if you are using any bigger amp becoz no ore/enmatter can make up for the mark up burned


I read rockets post about breaking out at 100k cycled and it is almost right on my logs too.

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1. I did A LOT more drops before, I only started posting when it became unbearable.
2. I DON`T FUCKING WANT to put more than 30-50 $ / session in this "game" !
Does this mean I`m not entitled to 90% return? or that I have to wait years for it? It seems so, and it seems some idiots like you consider it normal, this is why MA is also keeping this system in place. Guess what? The 30-50$ players will stop, like I (and others) did!
If we stop is this good for you? Is this good for the game? Is it good for MA?

$30-50 is perfectly fine for unamped mining.

I can't promise you 90% return, but if you sustain yourself well enough for 5 or 6 runs, you'll most likely reach it since you're doing 300-500 drops per run.

A soc mate of mine has a disciple that started with a $10 bankroll, and he's been able to sustain himself for months by mining unamped on Rocktropia. Alternative rock sells for ~120% and is extremely easy to find at any level. He's been camping out on Rocktropia, slowly selling his stock to crafters and sustaining himself. He's been doing great.

Ppl just talk about those "payback" loots like its quaranteed to happen... when i did my heaviest minings i used to blast 15 to 20 lvl7 or dclass amps a day.. everyday.. the loot was basic 60-70% returns but then occasionally i got a tower to get some of the losses back.. this happened quite a few times and it almost felt like a pattern.. until i stopped getting those paybacks.. ofc i was thinking that maybe its saving for a bigger one.. nothing ever came, but the ped card of 50k+ had disappeared quite rapidly.. so dont keep on dropping in the hope of getting the payback..

I changed my mining pattern last night and did a little 30 ped run, 96% return. Lets hope it keeps up...

tyk said:

Ppl just talk about those "payback" loots like its quaranteed to happen... when i did my heaviest minings i used to blast 15 to 20 lvl7 or dclass amps a day.. everyday.. the loot was basic 60-70% returns but then occasionally i got a tower to get some of the losses back.. this happened quite a few times and it almost felt like a pattern.. until i stopped getting those paybacks.. ofc i was thinking that maybe its saving for a bigger one.. nothing ever came, but the ped card of 50k+ had disappeared quite rapidly.. so dont keep on dropping in the hope of getting the payback..

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Kickbacks are real.

How else do you explain back-to-back consecutive towers indoors on different resources in different areas? Happened to me.... like.... mmmmmm...... 6 times last year? No matter what the kickback always comes.

How about that 30k feffox last month that was 100% shrapnel? Never seen that before? kickback.

How about ridiculous 5000x+ multis on smaller mobs? kickbacks from noobs using unmaxed guns and burning tons of ped.

For some reason, based on personal cycle data (not personal loot pools) that I and many other miners have collected, you are ALWAYS guaranteed to get, at minimum, ~90% TT back over time.

Go grind indoors at 4 ped per drop and cycle 200k TT... I bet you lose 25-30k TT and then hit back-to-back towers roughly every 100k TT cycled.. and you'll finish between 92-98% TT. Likely no profit though due to EP4. But that's for another thread.

Rocket192 said:

Kickbacks are real.

How else do you explain back-to-back consecutive towers indoors on different resources in different areas? Happened to me.... like.... mmmmmm...... 6 times last year? No matter what the kickback always comes.

How about that 30k feffox last month that was 100% shrapnel? Never seen that before? kickback.

How about ridiculous 5000x+ multis on smaller mobs? kickbacks from noobs using unmaxed guns and burning tons of ped.

For some reason, based on personal cycle data (not personal loot pools) that I and many other miners have collected, you are ALWAYS guaranteed to get, at minimum, ~90% TT back over time.

Go grind indoors at 4 ped per drop and cycle 200k TT... I bet you lose 25-30k TT and then hit back-to-back towers roughly every 100k TT cycled.. and you'll finish between 92-98% TT. Likely no profit though due to EP4. But that's for another thread.

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The fun thing is that all smining was outdoor