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Loot 2.0 : Recap

Immortal said:
There's a common them in the setup both you are(were) using. Sorry to say, you are the 2%
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What's that, low defense costs? So to be eco we're supposed to go banzai into a bunch of mobs with armor we don't need? Or, am I required to hunt higher level mobs only to get good loot, which makes a large portion of the game (and missions) unavailable to me?
 
Xen said:
What's that, low defense costs? So to be eco we're supposed to go banzai into a bunch of mobs with armor we don't need? Or, am I required to hunt higher level mobs only to get good loot, which makes a large portion of the game (and missions) unavailable to me?
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No, not that.

The way I see this "Robin Hood" update is that they lowered the gap between high efficiency and low efficiency.

Let's say that the average return rate along the board was 95% (fake number) with a variation of +/- 10%, so the most efficient hunters (top DPP gear, low to none defense gear, high enough DPS to avoid regen, etc) were able to get up to 105% return rates, while the less efficient hunters (using unmaxed, not eco gear, over protective armor, low DPS, etc) could have gone to as low as 85% return rates.

In the new model the average return rate could still be 95%, but the variation should be dropped to 3%, so the efficient hunters would still get better return rates than the not-efficient hunters, just that instead of a difference from 105% to 85% between the most efficient and the least efficient hunter, the difference might be now just between 98% and 92%.

So someone used to get a high return rate would see this as a big nerf and would complain about massive bleeding. Still, I'm sure their "bleeding" will be lowered compared with the not efficient or even with the average hunter, just that they are used to profiting, not losing (even if it's just a bit).

Personally, I think that it is healthier this way - someone with proper knowledge, proper gear should be able to break even after MU, but not really profit and withdraw (which represent the real bleeding for the game), while the average and below average player would lose less, which would allow him to play more and get more entertainment out of his money (lower cost to play) which is something that most players constantly asked over time.

I think profiting should be tied to investments (land areas, shops, services, trades), while the main professions (and especially hunting) should be about entertainment and come with a net cost, not with a net profit... just my 2 cents...
 
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DoA said:
No, not that.

The way I see this "Robin Hood" update is that they lowered the gap between high efficiency and low efficiency.

Let's say that the average return rate along the board was 95% (fake number) with a variation of +/- 10%, so the most efficient hunters (top DPP gear, low to none defense gear, high enough DPS to avoid regen, etc) were able to get up to 105% return rates, while the less efficient hunters (using unmaxed, not eco gear, over protective armor, low DPS, etc) could have gone to as low as 85% return rates.

In the new model the average return rate could still be 95%, but the variation should be dropped to 3%, so the efficient hunters would still get better return rates than the not-efficient hunters, just that instead of a difference from 105% to 85% between the most efficient and the least efficient hunter, the difference might be now just between 98% and 92%.

So someone used to get a high return rate would see this as a big nerf and would complain about massive bleeding. Still, I'm sure their "bleeding" will be lowered compared with the not efficient or even with the average hunter, just that they are used to profiting, not losing (even if it's just a bit).
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I wasn't profiting from tt return, and I was only using about 3.0 eco, and by hunting mobs with certain attributes I was getting about 99%. That is now 92% (thousands of kills). I'm supposed to put up with this after they systematically killed nearly all markup over the years and now half my loot is shrapnel? I'm supposed to spend 100k+ on guns/rings to get up to what, 95%? I'll simply stop playing. And a lot of other people will stop when they can't look at higher level players and see an "end game" or at least better days anymore.
 
Xen said:
I wasn't profiting from tt return, and I was only using about 3.0 eco, and by hunting mobs with certain attributes I was getting about 99%. That is now 92% (thousands of kills). I'm supposed to put up with this after they systematically killed nearly all markup over the years and now half my loot is shrapnel? I'm supposed to spend 100k+ on guns/rings to get up to what, 95%? I'll simply stop playing. And a lot of other people will stop when they can't look at higher level players and see an "end game" or at least better days anymore.
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My bad then... I just took into consideration what someone else said here previously that you had similar gear/experience with $5 and I know that he said in his own thread that he was at above 100% return rate on TT alone... so what I said was more directed towards him or Messi who is known to plays EU for a living and which are net withdrawers, not net depositors.

If that didn't also apply to you, then I apologize.



Later edit: I was referring to this post:

Immortal said:
There's a common them in the setup both you are(were) using. Sorry to say, you are the 2%
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I dont play eu for a living. I maybe make 2k tt a month for 200 hours of effort.. so before making assumptions, please know what you are talking about.

Being the 2% or whatever lame reasoning you want to suggest is not a reasoning to wish for their demise or suggest that a 25%tt nerf is acceptable (even if this is still short term). That is a great way to shoot yourself in the foot.

I have also deposited way more than you will ever dream of (a small regret of mine). I have only made 1 withdrawl in 3 years prior to this month. You should be glad there are net withdrawers, it gives people something to aspire to... but I aint one of them.
 
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atomicstorm said:
I dont play eu for a living. I maybe make 2k tt a month for 200 hours of effort.. so before making assumptions, please know what you are talking about.

Being the 2% or whatever lame reasoning you want to suggest is not a reasoning to wish for their demise or suggest that a 25%tt nerf is acceptable (even if this is still short term). That is a great way to shoot yourself in the foot.

I have also deposited way more than you will ever dream of (a small regret of mine). I have only made 1 withdrawl in 3 years prior to this month. You should be glad there are net withdrawers, it gives people something to aspire to... but I aint one of them.
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Please reread my post, because now you make assumptions.

What I said is that:
- you openly admitted in your thread that you had profit on TT alone;
- Messi openly admitted that gaming (in particular EU gaming at this time) is what he does for a living and what I did was to use the singular form *IS*, not plural form *ARE* known to play EU for a living (so only referring to him, not also to you; I never said that's what you did for a living, I know that's not true);
- as long as you are profiting (and I don't talk here about profiting from investments, but about profiting from the gaming part of the EU alone) the fact that you withdraw already or not is relatively irrelevant for me because you could withdraw said money at any time, so they represent a liability for MindArk.

Now I don't say I'm necessarily right, but in my vision, it shouldn't be possible to profit from the gaming part of EU alone... sure, efficient players should be able to make their money last longer and get more entertainment value for their bucks, but that should be it. If you would want to profit it should be by interacting with other players (MU, trading, services, investments, etc), not just by playing the game.

And, again, I may be wrong, but I think that's what MA tried to achieve with this update too... lower the cost of play for the vast majority of players while at the same time stopping the bleeding from the people that were running on a net profit. That's why I also call this update the "Robin Hood" update. And if indeed, that's what they aimed to do, then they sure have all my praises.

And just to make myself clear again... I'm actually grateful for what you did for the game, for your investments, for your dedication, for the way you manage your LAs (although I never hunted there)... and I definitely have no problem with the investor 5$ making profit out of his investments and using them to finance his in-game entertainment or eventually even cash them out if that's what he wants. My only problem is with the gamer 5$ that is getting both entertainment and profit from his hunting, at the expense of the other people that have to indirectly pay for his profits. And even so, my problem is not really with you (you did nothing wrong, you just played smart, kudos for that), but I think that (people net profiting on TT alone) was one thing that MA needed to address (and I think they just did that and in this case kudos to them for that).
 
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DoA said:
Now I don't say I'm necessarily right,).
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Not to be rude but I don't remember you saying that anywhere else, saying you are not necessarily right.

Not to be rude again but I am wondering how you have attained all of your knowledge ? It can not be from experience because your last global May 1 2016. In your game life time I only see 12 globals total in hunting. Do you play the game at all or just troll the forums? Just wondering, sorry.
 
Haven´t hunted much just a few daily missions, and a little something beside that.

So far my average returns haven´t noticable changed.
Ammo replaced with shrapnel, very nice + 1% in MU
Items (what items)
Globals (what globals)

For me not much changed.

I don´t do long hunts, as I don´t have time for that, rarly longer than 1-2 hrs
I am not super eco (58-63 Eco the guns I used befor and still use)
Rarly wear armor
FAP = ImpFAP (don´t need that very much)

My returns are still around 90% TT, MU from stackables ok

After MU always close to break even or profit.
 
CozMoDan said:
Not to be rude again but I am wondering how you have attained all of your knowledge ? It can not be from experience because your last global May 1 2016. In your game life time I only see 12 globals total in hunting. Do you play the game at all or just troll the forums? Just wondering, sorry.
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Please do judge me for what I say not for who I am, otherwise, you're just doing an ad hominem attack, which is a logical fallacy by itself. Anyway, to answer you, I'm a low-level player, so what I say is not from personal experience but as Arrigo Sacchi first said it, I never realized that to be a jockey you had to be a horse first. I think we all can have a perspective and theorize about a subject even without having personally experimented said things first hand.

Everything I say on the forums is based on my common sense (or maybe lack of... who knows) and my logic... and even if I don't mention it every time (since I think it's obvious) since I only state my opinions, it is always very possible that I may be wrong (just like anyone else may be wrong). But, still, as far as I'm aware, I always try to stay politically correct and never state my opinions as irrefutable truths, but always use phrases like "I think", "I prefer" or "I consider" which express the very same idea, that that's just my personal perspective, and not the absolute truth and it is, obviously, possible to be wrong.

And about forums... well, I have this personal challenge of gathering 1,000,000 sweat bottles... when I have in-game friends online or when there's activity on my planet's chat I do chat in game while sweating... when everything's quite in game, I switch here... so not trolling, but somehow close - keeping myself busy and entertained. :)
 
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Xen said:
What's that, low defense costs? So to be eco we're supposed to go banzai into a bunch of mobs with armor we don't need? Or, am I required to hunt higher level mobs only to get good loot, which makes a large portion of the game (and missions) unavailable to me?
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Exploting the system comes to mind
 
CozMoDan said:
Not to be rude but I don't remember you saying that anywhere else, saying you are not necessarily right.

Not to be rude again but I am wondering how you have attained all of your knowledge ? It can not be from experience because your last global May 1 2016. In your game life time I only see 12 globals total in hunting. Do you play the game at all or just troll the forums? Just wondering, sorry.
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She has had roughly 6 or 7 other avatars as various incarinations of Lovefall.
 
atomicstorm said:
She has had roughly 6 or 7 other avatars as various incarinations of Lovefall.
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Exactly two and they never coexisted; before creating a new one I asked MA to close my old account and allow me the creation of the new one. Just to keep things clear. ;)
 
DoA said:
Please reread my post, because now you make assumptions.

What I said is that:
- you openly admitted in your thread that you had profit on TT alone;
- Messi openly admitted that gaming (in particular EU gaming at this time) is what he does for a living and what I did was to use the singular form *IS*, not plural form *ARE* known to play EU for a living (so only referring to him, not also to you; I never said that's what you did for a living, I know that's not true);
- as long as you are profiting (and I don't talk here about profiting from investments, but about profiting from the gaming part of the EU alone) the fact that you withdraw already or not is relatively irrelevant for me because you could withdraw said money at any time, so they represent a liability for MindArk.

Now I don't say I'm necessarily right, but in my vision, it shouldn't be possible to profit from the gaming part of EU alone... sure, efficient players should be able to make their money last longer and get more entertainment value for their bucks, but that should be it. If you would want to profit it should be by interacting with other players (MU, trading, services, investments, etc), not just by playing the game.

And, again, I may be wrong, but I think that's what MA tried to achieve with this update too... lower the cost of play for the vast majority of players while at the same time stopping the bleeding from the people that were running on a net profit. That's why I also call this update the "Robin Hood" update. And if indeed, that's what they aimed to do, then they sure have all my praises.

And just to make myself clear again... I'm actually grateful for what you did for the game, for your investments, for your dedication, for the way you manage your LAs (although I never hunted there)... and I definitely have no problem with the investor 5$ making profit out of his investments and using them to finance his in-game entertainment or eventually even cash them out if that's what he wants. My only problem is with the gamer 5$ that is getting both entertainment and profit from his hunting, at the expense of the other people that have to indirectly pay for his profits. And even so, my problem is not really with you (you did nothing wrong, you just played smart, kudos for that), but I think that (people net profiting on TT alone) was one thing that MA needed to address (and I think they just did that and in this case kudos to them for that).
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Typical have vs havenot. You seem to think i just fell into tt profiting. I invested in gear and time. I didnt make several avatars, i did not exploit waves.. i just played the game. i earned and invested into my success, good fortune, or whatever castle you think i live in.

You want someone to blame and bitch at? Blame the botters, the alt creators, the wave farmers, thr planet partners who still remain clueless, the game company that has been halfassing things for some time (albeit making okay improvements in key areas), or whatever other boogeyman you want to fashion. Im not damaging your tt returns. I am playing the game... hell i use the same informatiom that i have freely SHARED on this forum.

This game isnt socialism, that is all crap. Some people win, some people lose. I have been winning (because of knowledge).. maybe i will be losing now after this poor attempt at balancing. But to be upset about my hunting success, ignoring the fact that my hunting is an investment is a bit asinine.
 
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atomicstorm said:
Typical have vs havenot. You seem to think i just fell into tt profiting. I invested in gear and time. I didnt make several avatars, i did not exploit waves.. i just played the game. i earned and invested into my success, good fortune, or whatever castle you think i live in.

You want someone to blame and bitch at? Blame the botters, the alt creators, the wave farmers, thr planet partners who still remain clueless, the game company that has been halfassing things for some time (albeit making okay improvements in key areas), or whatever other boogeyman you want to fashion. Im not damaging your tt returns. I am playing the game... hell i use the same informatiom that i have freely SHARED on this forum.

This game isnt socialism, that is all crap. Some people win, some people lose. I have been winning (because of knowledge).. maybe i will be losing now after this poor attempt at balancing. But to be upset about my hunting success, ignoring the fact that my hunting is an investment is a bit asinine.
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I repeated this several time, including in the post you partially quoted. I will repeat it here again.

DoA said:
And even so, my problem is not really with you (you did nothing wrong, you just played smart, kudos for that), but I think that (people net profiting on TT alone) was one thing that MA needed to address (and I think they just did that and in this case kudos to them for that).
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I never said you abused the system or had any unfair advantage. You were just smarter and you put your money where your mouth was, invested both time and money and reached the point where you managed to profit. Well done for you and I think your earnings are well deserved and once again I am NOT blaming you for them and I am not mad at you.

But I just think that people having net profit on TT are not healthy for the game so I think that it was about time for MA to change (not even fix, just change) that, so by being efficient you could just make your money last longer, not end up with a net profit (you should eventually be able to do that, but by interacting with other players, so by MU, not simply by shooting/playing).

Now it looks like they (tried to) do that and I cheer for them. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
DoA said:
Exactly two and they never coexisted; before creating a new one I asked MA to close my old account and allow me the creation of the new one. Just to keep things clear. ;)
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Alright.. weve had some posers then. The intent wasnt to attack you anyway. I will leave this one be.
 
DoA said:
I repeated this several time, including in the post you partially quoted. I will repeat it here again.



I never said you abused the system or had any unfair advantage. You were just smarter and you put your money where your mouth was, invested both time and money and reached the point where you managed to profit. Well done for you and I think your earnings are well deserved and once again I am NOT blaming you for them and I am not mad at you.

But I just think that people having net profit on TT are not healthy for the game so I think that it was about time for MA to change (not even fix, just change) that, so by being efficient you could just make your money last longer, not end up with a net profit (you should eventually be able to do that, but by interacting with other players, so by MU, not simply by shooting/playing).

Now it looks like they (tried to) do that and I cheer for them. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.
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If no one profited tt in hunting, why should anyone play? Why would anyone invest in gear? Why not play some cartoony mmo for 15 bucks a month? Do you see the flaw in your argument?

If no one profited in hunting, what hope is there to get back loss from months past? To risk big in hopes of the motherload?

Imagine being at a casino (or any probability system) where you never had a shot of winning. You think that is a good idea?
 
atomicstorm said:
If no one profited tt in hunting, why should anyone play? Why would anyone invest in gear? Why not play some cartoony mmo for 15 bucks a month? Do you see the flaw in your argument?

If no one profited in hunting, what hope is there to get back loss from months past? To risk big in hopes of the motherload?

Imagine being at a casino (or any probability system) where you never had a shot of winning. You think that is a good idea?
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For the very same reason why people pay to play any other MMO (and many of them paying rather large amounts of money every month on the cash shops)... for having fun, for character progression, etc.

Here is where our visions fall totally apart... I feel that what EU needs is more gamers... people to play it because they find it fun and because it provides them with enough entertainment... you know, the very same reasons why people pay and play in any other MMO... not people that play for profits...

Again, I may be wrong, but I honestly think that's what would benefit the EU most... people that come here for playing the game and having fun... people that "spend" (not necessarily large amounts of money) not "invest"... people who consciously are net depositors, not net withdrawers...

And, again, sure... I may be wrong... but that's what I think... and I tink that I should be allowed to express it without being attacked, just like you should be allowed to express your ideas without being attacked... you know respecting each other and keeping the discussion at the level of principles...

Anyway, to make it clear if there is any doubt... I'm not blaming you and I'm not hating you... not even a tiny bit...
 
DoA said:
For the very same reason why people pay to play any other MMO (and many of them paying rather large amounts of money every month on the cash shops)... for having fun, for character progression, etc.
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I think you're missing one key aspect - the only reason most people play this game is because it's a real cash economy. The game mechanics are probably the worst in the industry - nobody would play this as a "normal" MMO, since you can literally buy any $5 game off Steam and have way more fun. The entire point of playing is to figure out how the economic system works. It's a complete D-grade game otherwise.

As $5 said, if it was clear that there was no hope of winning, then what would be the point?
 
atomicstorm said:
If no one profited tt in hunting, why should anyone play? Why would anyone invest in gear? Why not play some cartoony mmo for 15 bucks a month? Do you see the flaw in your argument?

If no one profited in hunting, what hope is there to get back loss from months past? To risk big in hopes of the motherload?

Imagine being at a casino (or any probability system) where you never had a shot of winning. You think that is a good idea?
Click to expand...

Detritus said:
I think you're missing one key aspect - the only reason most people play this game is because it's a real cash economy. The game mechanics are probably the worst in the industry - nobody would play this as a "normal" MMO, since you can literally buy any $5 game off Steam and have way more fun. The entire point of playing is to figure out how the economic system works. It's a complete D-grade game otherwise.

As $5 said, if it was clear that there was no hope of winning, then what would be the point?
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This, exactly.
 
Detritus said:
I think you're missing one key aspect - the only reason most people play this game is because it's a real cash economy. The game mechanics are probably the worst in the industry - nobody would play this as a "normal" MMO, since you can literally buy any $5 game off Steam and have way more fun. The entire point of playing is to figure out how the economic system works. It's a complete D-grade game otherwise.
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It's not as bad as you make it sound; there are many areas where it really rocks (maybe not those you have an interest in).

For example, I challenge you to tell me three MMOs with an equally robust housing system as EU; also three MMOs with an equally robust fashion/character appearance system; and, believe me, there are tons of people interested in these areas.

Actually, that's exactly the way I landed up on Entropia Universe for the very first time... being disappointed by the lack of upgrades in the house decoration department from LotRO I started searching for a game that would offer me more than this.

Obviously, that's just an example; I'm sure there are other areas where EU shines too.
 
Xen said:
Huh? How was I exploiting the system? I wasn't even using EST...
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I know. even if you didn't intend it. Notcie how a certain avatars (which consists of..10? people) loot on preciselt the same mobs dropped 90% since then. ?Unfortunately you got caught up in the imbroglio due using a similar system 1.x vs Loot 2.0 switch.

Re-read the release notes. Hunt other mobs. That's all I can say.
 
DoA said:
It's not as bad as you make it sound; there are many areas where it really rocks (maybe not those you have an interest in).

For example, I challenge you to tell me three MMOs with an equally robust housing system as EU; also three MMOs with an equally robust fashion/character appearance system; and, believe me, there are tons of people interested in these areas.
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Well you got me on that one. Being a 40-year-old man, I don't really have an interest in playing house, or dress-up.


I would argue that if that's you're only real interest in the game, then the economy is pretty much irrelevant.
 
DoA said:
For the very same reason why people pay to play any other MMO (and many of them paying rather large amounts of money every month on the cash shops)... for having fun, for character progression, etc.

Here is where our visions fall totally apart... I feel that what EU needs is more gamers... people to play it because they find it fun and because it provides them with enough entertainment... you know, the very same reasons why people pay and play in any other MMO... not people that play for profits...

Again, I may be wrong, but I honestly think that's what would benefit the EU most... people that come here for playing the game and having fun... people that "spend" (not necessarily large amounts of money) not "invest"... people who consciously are net depositors, not net withdrawers...

And, again, sure... I may be wrong... but that's what I think... and I tink that I should be allowed to express it without being attacked, just like you should be allowed to express your ideas without being attacked... you know respecting each other and keeping the discussion at the level of principles...

Anyway, to make it clear if there is any doubt... I'm not blaming you and I'm not hating you... not even a tiny bit...
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Unlike others, this is a real cash economy game, playing for profit is inherent, or investing for possible profit in the future, by playing not just "investing". Other MMO's cost $20/month or whatever and that's fine throw away money for entertainment. The vast majority of people don't want to or simply cannot pay $300 or $500+ per month to play this game for "fun".
 
Immortal said:
I know. even if you didn't intend it. Notcie how a certain avatars (which consists of..10? people) loot on preciselt the same mobs dropped 90% since then. ?Unfortunately you got caught up in the imbroglio due using a similar system 1.x vs Loot 2.0 switch.

Re-read the release notes. Hunt other mobs. That's all I can say.
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I hunted mobs few hunted, the guys in profit (or most other people) did not hunt these. :) Or do you mean similar attributes? If so, not even that. Most of the tt profit guys hunted with very high eco setups, so much so that they could hunt almost anything they wanted. I'm not in that group.

As far as the vu notes, low overkill check, killed in reasonable time check, decent eco check, low defense costs check... the only other thing I can think of is the "match skills to mob" thing, but I was hoping that only meant don't hunt mobs over your head...
 
Xen said:
the only other thing I can think of is the "match skills to mob" thing, but I was hoping that only meant don't hunt mobs over your head...
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I find this part the most worrying. My experience so far, and also talking to other players, is that the system appears to punish for hunting below your level. This is with very limited data, so take it as just a preliminary experience.

If this turns out to be true, it would certainly be the final nail in the hunting coffin for myself and many others, since a lot of us can't afford to hunt at whatever our professional levels would suggest. It also means MindArk is forcing you to spend more and more as you level up. So your only option is to do just that, or constantly chip out to keep your levels at your budget. With the price of ESI and the very low MU and sales for skills, this isn't a great option.
 
Xen said:
low overkill check, decent eco check, low defense costs check
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Review these. With the assumption that overkill and a [certain] portion of defense costs was not accounted for in 1.x.

I can say with 100% certainty there was no such thing as overkill in 1.k. It was a player-manifested delusion.
 
Tried to kill a bit of this and that, loot was moderately bad, the quickest kill had the worst returns.

Also, watching paint drops in snarg and atrax... waves are more discernible than ever before.
 
Detritus said:
I find this part the most worrying. My experience so far, and also talking to other players, is that the system appears to punish for hunting below your level. This is with very limited data, so take it as just a preliminary experience.

If this turns out to be true, it would certainly be the final nail in the hunting coffin for myself and many others, since a lot of us can't afford to hunt at whatever our professional levels would suggest. It also means MindArk is forcing you to spend more and more as you level up. So your only option is to do just that, or constantly chip out to keep your levels at your budget. With the price of ESI and the very low MU and sales for skills, this isn't a great option.
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This was my first fear when I saw this and commented on it in the original thread, I didn't want to be put in some imaginary optimal mob box.

I am working on Aurli bronze. Based on results from last few days of 4+ hr runs, I am starting to get the idea that my setup is not a match for these mobs... so now I guess I should bail on the mission when I am almost 2/3 of the way done??? or stick with it and loose my ass ??? Those are my choices now???

The whole point of doing missions for me is to be able to grind a bit and skill the fuck up with rewards at the end!

Now I am being penalized for that because my rig don't match the mobs I can kill? If so WTF MA.

/sad

Dear MA, Please tell me what mob I need to hunt based on my current set up. I don't want to waste time and money trying to figure out what your fucking idea of the optimal mob is.
 
Immortal said:
Review these. With the assumption that overkill and a [certain] portion of defense costs was not accounted for in 1.x.

I can say with 100% certainty there was no such thing as overkill in 1.k. It was a player-manifested delusion.
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I might disagree with you somewhat on the overkill. I think there was a safety mechanism which compensated for large overkill, but not sure being a miser with overkill didn't help a little.
 
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