What TT return rate % you expect?

Hyellow!

After seeing recently people with quite high return rate (at least after my standards) still complaining about their results, it occurred to me that maybe all this unhappiness is simply caused by unrealistic expectations. So I thought on creating this thread to try to assess the level of expectations of the other players.

So please, answer on what you consider would be a reasonable long-term TT return rate, not on what you're currently getting or anything else like that.

So, in other words, what would be the minimum long-term TT return rate that you would be content (not necessarily happy) with.



To try to put things in a different perspective:
- 100%+ means you would never have to deposit, but you would profit instead
- 97.5% to 100% means you would be able to recycle 40 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 40,000 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 95% to 97.5% means you would be able to recycle 20 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 20,000 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 92.5% to 95% means you would be able to recycle 15 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 15,000 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 90% to 92.5% means you would be able to recycle 10 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 10,000 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 80% to 90% means you would be able to recycle 5 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 5,000 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 70% to 80% means you would be able to recycle 3.33 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 3,333 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 60% to 70% means you would be able to recycle 2.5 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 2,500 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 50% to 60% means you would be able to recycle 2 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 2,000 PED before running out of PEDs)

Please remember to pick the LOWEST you would be content with (otherwise sure, we'll all want 100%+ ).



Spoiler: my pick was 90%+; now sure I would be happy to get more, but I don't aim to make a profit and getting to cycle 10 times my deposits sound like a rather good deal for me (deal = cheap entertainment).

95%-97.5% is ideal. plus it gives the chance to push 100% with MU items.

if its slightly under you can try to push it back up

The Jetman said:

95%-97.5% is ideal. plus it gives the chance to push 100% with MU items.

if its slightly under you can try to push it back up

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Id assume the famous old 95% is faulty, perhaps its a good baseline and what is actually Mindarks share (5%) of cycled peds but we do have a planetpartner in all cases that should get payed and on calypso we allso have CLDs that must get payed (dont remember but I recall it as 5%) so to get on average for all players 95% returns is a dream but Im afraid not possible.

//Linzey

krogfan said:

Id assume the famous old 95% is faulty, perhaps its a good baseline and what is actually Mindarks share (5%) of cycled peds but we do have a planetpartner in all cases that should get payed and on calypso we allso have CLDs that must get payed (dont remember but I recall it as 5%) so to get on average for all players 95% returns is a dream but Im afraid not possible.

//Linzey

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For all yeah, probably right, TTwise i sit at 96.5% over 2 years but i don't play high hours or hunt way above my level, just 400k turnover

As if there was something wrong with expecting the unreasonable.

DoA said:

Hyellow!

After seeing recently people with quite high return rate (at least after my standards) still complaining about their results, it occurred to me that maybe the all this unhappiness is simply caused by unrealistic expectations. So I thought on creating this thread to try to assess the level of expectations of the other players.

So please, answer on what you consider would be a reasonable long-term TT return rate, not on what you're currently getting or anything else like that.

So, in other words, what would be the minimum long-term TT return rate that you would be content (not necessarily happy) with.



To try to put things in a different perspective:
- 100%+ means you would never have to deposit, but you would profit instead
- 97.5% to 100% means you would be able to recycle 40 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 40,000 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 95% to 97.5% means you would be able to recycle 20 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 20,000 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 92.5% to 95% means you would be able to recycle 15 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 15,000 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 90% to 92.5% means you would be able to recycle 10 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 10,000 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 80% to 90% means you would be able to recycle 5 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 5,000 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 70% to 80% means you would be able to recycle 3.33 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 3,333 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 60% to 70% means you would be able to recycle 2.5 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 2,500 PED before running out of PEDs)
- 50% to 60% means you would be able to recycle 2 times your deposit (so by depositing 1,000 PED you could cycle 2,000 PED before running out of PEDs)

Please remember to pick the LOWEST you would be content with (otherwise sure, we'll all want 100%+ ).



Spoiler: my pick was 90%+; now sure I would be happy to get more, but I don't aim to make a profit and getting to cycle 10 times my deposits sound like a rather good deal for me (deal = cheap entertainment).

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There are some people on this forum, you included, that are actually on the other side, meaning you accept any s**t MA is giving to you and you are happy it's not worse. That's OK if you are happy with 90% return, I have no problem with that , MA loves you, I 'm happy you are happy(I wish more would be like you) but, please, DON'T say people that expect 95%+ are unrealistic.

Maybe if you are hunting low level you are OK getting back 90% return, but what happens with people that go thru 10kpeds/day(or more), should these people deposit each day 1000 PEDs(as per your maths) just because it's worth it? I don't think so!!!.
MA should be extremely happy to get 100USD/month from each player(that plays 3-4h/day), the main issue here, as always was, is that MA and other planets are not able to attract more people to play, also losing good(paying) old customers.

It is a vicious circle and they can't find a way to get away from it, they needed more money but instead of getting these money from more people they charge more the same people offering same services/entertainment.

One of the biggest mistakes was CLDs, and still is, as others says that's a permanent drain and active players needs to pay for it, each week.
Maybe their intention with CLDs was good, but the money they got from CLD sale were not used to attract more people/assets(or failed to do so) and now $ are gone and they left with this liability, for LIFE it seems.

I guess next step is to sell CLD2, and we should be happy with 85% return rate? then CLD3 80% and so on.. life is good return is decent.

I voted for 97.5%+ and I think paying 100USD/month for what EU offers is more that enough.

Prior to 2.0, I was at around 96% TT overall and happy with it since I hunted for MU and was able to profit.

Now all I can loot is shrapnel and oils so I guess I would like 99% since I can only get 101% MU.



EDIT: With regards to MA's income, their official statement was that their income only comes from decay, and they (to my knowledge) have never retracted nor augmented that statement. So where does all the money from auction fees, planet landing fees, teleport fees, taxes, strong boxes, etc. go?

Well, it depends.

I personally would be way happier with 95% if it's possible to get 5% MU from the loot,
THEN getting 98% but 2% MU max.

combo22 said:

There are some people on this forum, you included, that are actually on the other side, meaning you accept any s**t MA is giving to you and you are happy it's not worse. That's OK if you are happy with 90% return, I have no problem with that , MA loves you, I 'm happy you are happy(I wish more would be like you) but, please, DON'T say people that expect 95%+ are unrealistic.

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If you would have been careful, you could have seen that I avoided giving any numbers (except what I voted for in the poll); I never said that 95% (or x%) is not realistic, although at some point (again, avoiding to try to name one) it indeed becomes unrealistic, because that's a subzero sum game (MA, PP, LA owners, CLD owners take their share, then from what's left someone's win is someone's else lose), so is obvious we can't all win (and still some people picked 100%+ as the realistic option they expect - lol). So please don't jump on me, because I haven't jumped on you... and I don't really think the poll has right or wrong answers; I made it just because I'm curious about what other people expect.

Game is wrongly advertised as a investment platform and mode to earn.
Because of that we have shitload of investors like MA, planet partners, CLD owners, AUD owners, bank and shop owners, LA owners, mother ship owners, traders, resellers.
If trend will continue on this path we will have soon more investors than consumers witch will have difficulty to pay for all investors profits.
I'm guessing how investors would earn in extreme case if EU become overcrowded by investors and no players or not enough players to play and pay.

DoA said:

If you would have been careful, you could have seen that I avoided giving any numbers (except what I voted for in the poll); I never said that 95% (or x%) is not realistic, although at some point (again, avoiding to try to name one) it indeed becomes unrealistic, because that's a subzero sum game (MA, PP, LA owners, CLD owners take their share, then from what's left someone's win is someone's else lose), so is obvious we can't all win (and still some people picked 100%+ as the realistic option they expect - lol). So please don't jump on me, because I haven't jumped on you... and I don't really think the poll has right or wrong answers; I made it just because I'm curious about what other people expect.

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I don't jump on you..., but your numbers just made it so easy to see that anything bellow 97,5%(if your maths are correct) is just to much for what we get.
I know that we should pay for entertainment and I paid 10+ years here, but instead to get better it's getting worse.
After all it's our fault(the players) we accept this low return rate, I saw in another thread that someone did some maths and come up with a great advice: If you want to hunt Atrox young you need to have 40000peds(4000USD) on your ped card, are you people really serious? I'm not saying that your maths are wrong, but do you accept this as a fact and just live with it?
I imagine this guys killing The Eviscerator have at least 1mil PEDs on their cards.

combo22 said:

I don't jump on you..., but your numbers just made it so easy to see that anything bellow 97,5%(if your maths are correct) is just to much for what we get.
I know that we should pay for entertainment and I paid 10+ years here, but instead to get better it's getting worse.
After all it's our fault(the players) we accept this low return rate, I saw in another thread that someone did some maths and come up with a great advice: If you want to hunt Atrox young you need to have 40000peds(4000USD) on your ped card, are you people really serious? I'm not saying that your maths are wrong, but do you accept this as a fact and just live with it?
I imagine this guys killing The Eviscerator have at least 1mil PEDs on their cards.

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The point where I think you're wrong (not discussing numbers, just principles) is that instead of adjusting your expectations to realities you kinda expect the realities to adjust to your expectations; more exactly instead of hunting according to your budget, you're complaining why you can't hunt what you want with your budget (not saying you specifically, a generic you). Is like IRL instead of making your purchases according to our budget, we would keep whining that certain things are too expensive just because we don't afford them (and yeah, there are a LOT of things I don't afford and I'm still not complaining about it).

And about that guy saying one needs 40,000 PEDs to hunt Atrox young... you read that wrong, what he said there (and even then he exaggerated) is that this would be the amount needed to ride even the longest bad swings and still end up with the average results. It's not something you realistically need to have; if that would be the case instead it would be outrageous.

combo22 said:

Maybe if you are hunting low level you are OK getting back 90% return, but what happens with people that go thru 10kpeds/day(or more), should these people deposit each day 1000 PEDs(as per your maths) just because it's worth it? I don't think so!!!.
MA should be extremely happy to get 100USD/month from each player(that plays 3-4h/day).

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Well Exactly.

I really don't care how MA wrap it up. They promised better returns under loot 2.0

I don't care about available loot on servers, or were loot comes from. I don't care about this factor, that factor, or 4 million other factors. I just want to know "one" simple answer.

If I run 65.1 melee eco, on low budget on low mobs with perfected rings, to enjoy a bit of skilling for entertainment, with next to zero chance of ever hoffing because its low budget....... What is the cost MA wants to charge me for running 10 - 20 whips per week.

It's that simple.

Rick

I voted 100%. The problem with your poll is that it only has 100% and not more than that. IMO, in this game, if you have the right skills, the right gear and hunt the right mobs, you should be able to profit in TT.
Obviously, most players will not achieve that. Most would not even expect that. Then again, it should be a possible goal. It should also be possible to do that at all skill levels, if you make the right choices. Is not unreasonable to expect to profit.

DoA said:

Hyellow!

After seeing recently people with quite high return rate (at least after my standards) still complaining about their results, it occurred to me that maybe all this unhappiness is simply caused by unrealistic expectations. So I thought on creating this thread to try to assess the level of expectations of the other players.

So please, answer on what you consider would be a reasonable long-term TT return rate, not on what you're currently getting or anything else like that.

So, in other words, what would be the minimum long-term TT return rate that you would be content (not necessarily happy) with.

Please remember to pick the LOWEST you would be content with (otherwise sure, we'll all want 100%+ ).

Spoiler: my pick was 90%+; now sure I would be happy to get more, but I don't aim to make a profit and getting to cycle 10 times my deposits sound like a rather good deal for me (deal = cheap entertainment).

Click to expand...

Hello,

I will try to put some perspective into your thinking as well.

You seem to mistake TT% with cost to play.

You're hunting, at least as of now, Scout Bot XT daily since you're trying to sell their loot, you did claim in the past that you're playing ~2h a day or so, and also said you were mainly going social. All that wraps up in you killing about 110 of those Scout Bot a day, correct me if I am wrong.
I am not judging your playstyle, simply puting some perspective here.

Let's say you're getting more involved in the game and start to kill 300 per day. That's about 35 peds to kill that, daily. Or 1050 peds a month. At 92.5% (since you voted 90 - 92.5% I'll take the highest) that is 78.75 peds paid. Or about $8. Indeed, that's cheap, less than most subscription-based games.

Now, let's consider a mid-level hunter. With decent gear (adj mili + RDI, or similar in Limited) it isn't hard to get 100K peds cycled a month. That's ~400/500 peds an hour, so let's say 450. 7h30 per day, every day of the month means ~101K cycled so it is a fair assumption.

Now, give 92.5% returns to that hunter... that's -7500 peds, every month. Even more than what his entire setup costs (~4000 peds). Every month. $750.
At 98%, that's -2000 peds every month, or $200.

Sure, you can say there is some Markup and all that... Well, if you find a monster with 6%+ in markup (needed to get from 92.5% TT to 98% in MU), I'm all ears.

92.5% might seem just fine considering the level you play at. You cannot apply such a return at higher level, even medium one.

I'd like to vote too but I can't find the option for my case.

messi91 said:

I'd like to vote too but I can't find the option for my case.

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0-50% I'm guessing?

tt is much less important if there is enough markup, if Markup* tt is above 105 % I will shoot a lot,
if it is between 100-105 % i will shoot regular
if is is less then 100 % I will shoot, but only few times a year

I was getting tt profit (110% tt return) at the moment before loot 2.0 . It's quite possible they changed the way loot works which means I no longer know how loot works, which would suck tremendously. But I guess I can adapt again, I also did after the engine was changed from gamebryo to cryengine.
So tbh.. I need to do research if my hunting method still works. If it does then 100% +, if it doesn't then 90% is hopeful, until I see the pattern again.

Detritus said:

So where does all the money from auction fees, planet landing fees, teleport fees, taxes, strong boxes, etc. go?

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Phaelia said:

Hello,

I will try to put some perspective into your thinking as well.

You seem to mistake TT% with cost to play.

You're hunting, at least as of now, Scout Bot XT daily since you're trying to sell their loot, you did claim in the past that you're playing ~2h a day or so, and also said you were mainly going social. All that wraps up in you killing about 110 of those Scout Bot a day, correct me if I am wrong.
I am not judging your playstyle, simply puting some perspective here.

Let's say you're getting more involved in the game and start to kill 300 per day. That's about 35 peds to kill that, daily. Or 1050 peds a month. At 92.5% (since you voted 90 - 92.5% I'll take the highest) that is 78.75 peds paid. Or about $8. Indeed, that's cheap, less than most subscription-based games.

Now, let's consider a mid-level hunter. With decent gear (adj mili + RDI, or similar in Limited) it isn't hard to get 100K peds cycled a month. That's ~400/500 peds an hour, so let's say 450. 7h30 per day, every day of the month means ~101K cycled so it is a fair assumption.

Now, give 92.5% returns to that hunter... that's -7500 peds, every month. Even more than what his entire setup costs (~4000 peds). Every month. $750.
At 98%, that's -2000 peds every month, or $200.

Sure, you can say there is some Markup and all that... Well, if you find a monster with 6%+ in markup (needed to get from 92.5% TT to 98% in MU), I'm all ears.

92.5% might seem just fine considering the level you play at. You cannot apply such a return at higher level, even medium one.

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First of all kudos for your research, analyze and patience to explain it (no sarcasm)... everything you said about me sounds about right and even rest of the things sound logic and make sense.

Problem is that I think you have a total skewed definition of "mid-level" and "average player"... 7.5 hours per day, every day? That's really hardcore, like a full-time job... definitely not mid level and definitely not an average player...

And I still think (obviously I can be wrong) that you're doing the same mistake... (wanting to) hunt at your skills and not at your budget... something like I can burn 500 PEDs per hour so I should be able to do it... that's somehow like me saying that if I have a three months vacation from school I should be able to afford to stay three months at a hotel with my vacation budget... it sure would be nice but it is not realistic.

Instead I think is important to adjust our expectations to our budget (hint: there is a reason why I'm only hunting 110 XT bots per day ) and to the reality... and in this case, the reality is that the game has expenses (servers, development, etc), MA needs to make a profit, PPs need to make a profit, Deed holders need to make a profit and all these profits are taken away from our deposits then what is left has to return (obviously divided) back to us. Now you may argue that 92.5% may be too low, while I may argue that 97.5% may be too high and I can't say which of us is right without knowing exactly what the volume of cycled money is, what expenses are and what company's profit margin is.

But when you see a fair share of people (~25%, so about 1 in 4 at the moment) saying that they find it normal to profit (on TT alone), for sure I can say that they're either stupid/unrealistic (not realizing we're in a sub-zero sum game) or terribly greedy (waiting for other players loses to finance their own profits).

Just my 2 cents...

Spawn said:

if it doesn't then 90% is hopeful, until I see the pattern again.

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Wasn't the main problem before there was a pattern via loot waves and we don't want patterns anymore.

DoA said:

First of all kudos for your research, analyze and patience to explain it (no sarcasm)... everything you said about me sounds about right and even rest of the things sound logic and make sense.

Problem is that I think you have a total skewed definition of "mid-level" and "average player"... 7.5 hours per day, every day? That's really hardcore, like a full-time job... definitely not mid level and definitely not an average player...

Instead I think is important to adjust our expectations to our budget and tot he reality... and in this case, the reality is that the game has expenses (servers, development, etc), MA needs to make a profit, PPs need to make a profit, Deed holders need to make a profit and all these profits are taken away from our deposits then what is left has to return (obviously divided) back to us. Now you may argue that 92.5% may be too low, while I may argue that 97.5% may be too high and I can't say which of us is right without knowing exactly what the volume of cycled money is, what expenses are and what company's profit margin is.

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I haven't done any research and I apologise if it felt like this. You literally said half this in your sales post on Cyrene's forum (which you linked in trade channels, so it ends up catching my attention), and the other half on the very first page on your website or blog about your journey, or probably even in the associated thread in this very forum I stumbled across some months ago.

I probably phrased it poorly, I admit. I mainly meant mid-level hunting rather than mid-level hunter. Say, Atrox or some other creatures you can hunt with that. For the hours given per month, feel free to divide that as much as you consider right and it'll give the same result according to the point I wanted to make. Divide it by 5 (1.5h/day) it's already 1500 peds/month at 92.5%.

Adjusting expectations to reality... One reality is that I can purchase multiple new PC games with that, so it is a reality to take into consideration.

I also did not claim 92.5% to be wrong nor 97.5% to be right, I simply wanted to clarify the fact it was relative.

DoA said:

Instead I think is important to adjust our expectations to our budget and tot he reality... and in this case, the reality is that the game has expenses (servers, development, etc), MA needs to make a profit, PPs need to make a profit, Deed holders need to make a profit and all these profits are taken away from our deposits then what is left has to return (obviously divided) back to us. Now you may argue that 92.5% may be too low, while I may argue that 97.5% may be too high and I can't say which of us is right without knowing exactly what the volume of cycled money is, what expenses are and what company's profit margin is.

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I think the only point others are trying to make is that cost of play as it stands is too high, bottom line. 90% would be a ridiculous rake. Online casinos average 98%, so I don't think expecting 98% for "blind play" here is unreasonable. If you are studious, observant, and play smart, you should be able to go beyond 100%. This wouldn't hurt MA since most people don't play smart.

Yes, MA needs to make money, but if this were a well-oiled machine that wouldn't be difficult.

I think the core problem is ultimately MA is a poorly managed company that is constantly chasing their tail due to their long history of myopic decisions. The money has to come from somewhere.

messi91 said:

I'd like to vote too but I can't find the option for my case.

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Messi91 made me to thin a bit. He can't chose 100+ option, he would probably like to take something lower than 0 so with negative sign in front of numer percentage.
This would complicate poll and statistical data. So could it be? NO for sure.

Anyway...
Jumping only on TT is not enough.
I think pre VU formula that more you decay - more skills you gain is still valid.
Sem that enhancers, buffs and other things in new loot formula have jet to be implemented.
If not ask yourself what is for you eco and high return aka 95-100%?
A super eco hunt where you do not gain any skill?
A super eco hunt where killing proces last for ever because you are immortal and have 30 hour per day at disposition?

Detritus said:

Online casinos average 98%, so I don't think expecting 98% for "blind play" here is unreasonable. If you are studious, observant, and play smart, you should be able to go beyond 100%. This wouldn't hurt MA since most people don't play smart.

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There is a vast difference between casinos running pretty much ready-made software that doesn't need a lot of changes and a company developing a product as complex as our EU or similar games. Think many millions of difference.

Phaelia said:

I haven't done any research and I apologise if it felt like this. You literally said half this in your sales post on Cyrene's forum (which you linked in trade channels, so it ends up catching my attention), and the other half on the very first page on your website or blog about your journey, or probably even in the associated thread in this very forum I stumbled across some months ago.

I probably phrased it poorly, I admit. I mainly meant mid-level hunting rather than mid-level hunter. Say, Atrox or some other creatures you can hunt with that. For the hours given per month, feel free to divide that as much as you consider right and it'll give the same result according to the point I wanted to make. Divide it by 5 (1.5h/day) it's already 1500 peds/month at 92.5%.

Adjusting expectations to reality... One reality is that I can purchase multiple new PC games with that, so it is a reality to take into consideration.

I also did not claim 92.5% to be wrong nor 97.5% to be right, I simply wanted to clarify the fact it was relative.

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Well, kudos for keeping an open eye other things, having a good memory and a sharp mind to connect the dots. Really, there was no sarcasm and no criticism, neither earlier, neither now.

Now let's not focus on a number of hours per day, but just on the cost to play per hour; I think that's more accurate and easier to understand this way. And the way I see it is that is totally up to us to choose if we want to play at 10 PED/hour budget (and lose let's say 0.5 PED per hour or RL$0.05 per hour at the 95% return rate), play at 100 PED/hour budget (and lose 5 PED or RL$0.50 per hour) or play at 1,000 PED/hour budget (and lose 50 PED or RL$5.00 per hour). It's all on us. Just like we can choose to drink a cheap beer, a reasonably priced wine or a really expensive brand champagne when getting out in town (which also counts as an entertainment) [well, no alcohol for me, but it was hard to give the same example with soda brands - lol].

But sure, I totally agree with you that things are relative (and not only that I agree, but I advocate the very same idea)... my only point was that is not reasonable to expect to profit on TT alone (and that someone who does that is either stupid/unrealistic for not realizing we're in a sub-zero sum game or terribly greedy waiting to profit out of other players misery).

San said:

There is a vast difference between casinos running pretty much ready-made software that doesn't need a lot of changes and a company developing a product as complex as our EU or similar games. Think many millions of difference.

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A fair point, but I'm banking on them making up the R&D costs in other ways (ah fees, landing fees, boxes, etc).

I see no reason they couldn't have their monthly overhead met and exceeded by the rake.

DoA said:

And the way I see it is that is totally up to us to choose if we want to play at 10 PED/hour budget (and lose let's say 0.5 PED per hour or RL$0.05 per hour at the 95% return rate), play at 100 PED/hour budget (and lose 5 PED or RL$0.50 per hour) or play at 1,000 PED/hour budget (and lose 50 PED or RL$5.00 per hour). It's all on us. Just like we can choose to drink a cheap beer, a reasonably priced wine or a really expensive brand champagne when getting out in town (which also counts as an entertainment) [well, no alcohol for me, but it was hard to give the same example with soda brands - lol].

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Yes but the problem is they've priced it so that most people can't afford to drink anything but Pabst. And you can't get a good buzz off PBR, it just makes you piss a lot.

My expectations would depend on skill and gear. About 90% on the low end of skill/gear, near 100% on the high end (keep in mind the high end is probably cycling a lot more ped).