Puny Setup

Since loot is a bit jacked ATM, I'm thinking to complete some of my puny missions, such as cara and hornet.

Specifically, I'm looking for a setup to hunt 10 hp mobs. I've been piddling with the numbers on a couple of different setups, and mainly I'm creating this thread to see if my reasoning/math is solid.



So far it seems Italian Switchblade would be lowest cost of overkill, but now that time to kill is a factor, I wonder how it balances out. Perhaps the Bukin +A101 would be more effective in spite of the overkill since it's almost half the kill time.

What do y'all think?

Any other setups you'd recommend?

TT gun + ZX has both better DPS and DPP.

But the damage is probably too high, so is recommended to use a finisher (I was using the pistol from Hunt the Thing on RT).

DoA said:

TT gun + ZX has both better DPS and DPP.

But the damage is probably too high, so is recommended to use a finisher (I was using the pistol from Hunt the Thing on RT).

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Though the eco is good (2.981), with an effective dmg of 4.865 that means you are averaging almost an entire shot of overkill (4.595 to be exact), so unless you use a finisher like you said, this would be a poor choice.

I would like to avoid a finisher on 10hp mobs, I just want to keep hitting next target.

TT Pistol + ZX amp would be ideal DPP & DPS.

Use something unamped like S.I. HK110 to kill.

If you want to avoid a finisher, use unamped guns.

The best dpp you can find can also be found in melee.

Detritus said:

Though the eco is good (2.981), with an effective dmg of 4.865 that means you are averaging almost an entire shot of overkill (4.595 to be exact), so unless you use a finisher like you said, this would be a poor choice.

I would like to avoid a finisher on 10hp mobs, I just want to keep hitting next target.

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Actually, that's not the right way to calculated the optimal weapon; instead you should use probabilistic math.

For example, here's how the math looks for the naked HK110.

Excluding misses and crits, we can kill a carabok in three, four of five shots (two shots have a maximum damage of 2*4=8 hp, so not enough, while five shots have a minimum damage of 5*2=10 hp, so enough to kill, no way to shoot a sixth time).

The weapon has a damage between 2 and 4, which means that on each shoot we'll have a guaranteed 1.9 damage plus anything between 0.1 and 2.1 (so rolling a dice with 21 faces).

The chance to kill it in three kills is 19.12% (formula is 3d21 + 3*19 equaling at least 100).
The chance to need five shots (four shots not being enough) is 4.55% (formula is (4d21 + 4*19 equaling at most 99).
The remaining chances 100-19.12-4.55=76.33% is that it will require four shoots to be killed.

Now putting them in a formula it means we'll need on average 0.1912 * 3 + 0.0455 * 5 + 0.7733 * 4 = 3.8943 hits to kill a carabok.

Misses and crits not counted, but they are largely irrelevant since we don't try to predetermine an exact cost to kill, but to compare weapons with each other.



You should repeat the same for any weapon and compare the end results.



I remember at some point I did an extensive research specifically for 10 hp mobs (caraboks) on more weapons, and the end result was that, without using a finisher, the best weapon to use was the Pistol (SA)(L) from The Thing, but excluding it because it requires repeated visits to RT to resupply stocks, the naked TT pistol was the best option, but anyway all of them (HK, TT gun, TT gun + ZX, HK + ZX, Scorpion, Scorpion + ZX) came pretty close (withing 2.5% cost difference).

Unfortunately, though I no longer have said file so you'll either have to take my word for it or just do the math for all possible options following the model I just listed.

Yeah I mean anything that is "ECO" while amped.

If unamped would also be "eco" for that dpp tier.

So for that TT pistol is pretty beast, low decay...

Rounding can be a bitch, too. I've killed a 10 hp puny with a one 9.9 crit from a 5 dmg weapon. Go figure.

That happened in 2013 though, and in other areas of the game rounding has changed since then.

if you are gonna do puny anyways, why not use a weapon that's not your primary... melee will up your hp over time... and it's just fun. Speaking from experience I can tell you that puny is a boring, boring mission after a few thousand.

Before taming came back I plowed through a few thousand of them with viper whip... That was extremely slow and boring... The reload on that thing is way too slow to do that for entire mission even if it would up your whip skill a lot... I think I got to around level 12 in whipper hit doing just that with puny before the taming actually came back in game

M Rufen Power said:

TT Pistol + ZX amp would be ideal DPP & DPS.

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Only with a finisher, which I want to avoid. Otherwise this combo produces too much overkill.

DoA said:

The weapon has a damage between 2 and 4, which means that on each shoot we'll have a guaranteed 1.9 damage plus anything between 0.1 and 2.1 (so rolling a dice with 21 faces).

The chance to kill it in three kills is 19.12% (formula is 3d21 + 3*19 equaling at least 100).
The chance to need five shots (four shots not being enough) is 4.55% (formula is (4d21 + 4*19 equaling at most 99).
The remaining chances 100-19.12-4.55=76.33% is that it will require four shoots to be killed.

Now putting them in a formula it means we'll need on average 0.1912 * 3 + 0.0455 * 5 + 0.7733 * 4 = 3.8943 hits to kill a carabok.

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This would be true if the dmg you do was as simple as a die roll, but that's not how EU works.

Effective Dmg = ((Dmg From + Dmg To) / 2) * (0.8 + HitModifier * 0.1) + MaxDmg *(0.01 + CritModifier * 0.01)

So for unamped HK110 you need average of 3.59 hits. The net result is avg 4 shots regardless, since you have to round up to the nearest shot.

The most effective weapon for a 10hp mob would have an effective dmg that's as close to evenly divisible by 10 as possible (e.g. as close to 5 as possible without going under it, or as close to 2 as possible without going under). That's why the switchblade will have the least overkill - it's very close to averaging exactly 5 shots.

mastermesh said:

if you are gonna do puny anyways, why not use a weapon that's not your primary... melee will up your hp over time... and it's just fun. Speaking from experience I can tell you that puny is a boring, boring mission after a few thousand.

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I am a melee user (I actually use both pistol and knife). I was just looking at stuff I already had in inventory, but I'm certainly open to any setup. The problem with the TT knife or sword is what I stated above -- they are very close to 5 avg dmg, but are just under, so there's a lot of overkill.

Also, I'm not sure if you've ever tried to hunt hornets with a melee weapon, but it's.... well, just try it and see for yourself.

I do agree they are incredibly boring, but I swunt them while I'm at work, so it's more of a background task. I wouldn't have the patience to hunt them outright.

Detritus said:

This would be true if the dmg you do was as simple as a die roll, but that's not how EU works.

Effective Dmg = ((Dmg From + Dmg To) / 2) * (0.8 + HitModifier * 0.1) + MaxDmg *(0.01 + CritModifier * 0.01)

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Still, the thing is that you're not hitting average; thing is that on every shot you're still rolling a dice to decide where between your min damage and max damage you're landing.

So it's really not about averages, but about odds. If with one setup you need "on average" 3.60 shots and with the other one 3.80 shots, based on your logic they are about the same, since you round both averages to 4 shots since on any given mob you can't have "partial shots".

But, in reality, over a large enough sample, the setup with the average of 3.6 shots will end up giving you the kill in only three shots instead of four more often than the setup with the average of 3.8 shots, so total number of shots over hundreds/thousands of mobs would definitely not be equal (and equal with four).

But, well, whatever makes sense for you. I was just trying to help.

DoA said:

Still, the thing is that you're not hitting average; thing is that on every shot you're still rolling a dice to decide where between your min damage and max damage you're landing.

So it's really not about averages, but about odds. If with one setup you need "on average" 3.60 shots and with the other one 3.80 shots, based on your logic they are about the same, since you round both averages to 4 shots since on any given mob you can't have "partial shots".

But, in reality, over a large enough sample, the setup with the average of 3.6 shots will end up giving you the kill in only three shots instead of four more often than the setup with the average of 3.8 shots, so total number of shots over hundreds/thousands of mobs would definitely not be equal (and equal with four).

But, well, whatever makes sense for you. I was just trying to help.

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Well math has never been my strong point, so you could certainly be right. I will try to digest what was presented in this thread.

Best puny setup... I was hitting rock bottom in May with the prospectors and had only punies to cut back to. Chose Hornets since the mission was left undone. Found the combo of HK110, Sinkadus, Imp. Ares (slightly over 3.0 dpp) to work perfectly and economically despite the risk of overkill, but since this is already almost as low as you can go, there shouldn't be many others who could do even better there (working theory being that absolute efficiency isn't the only factor to determine success, but relative efficiency to others on the same mob or within the same domain). Tried S.I. Scorpion for its higher speed, but on this particular mob range proved more useful. Despite funding constraints I couldn't muster the patience to use an extra finisher looking ahead at the long 5k+10k mission stages. It turned out cost-neutral over the whole distance, even including the luxury of armour (CDF Scout) since at the speed I was working they did slightly more damage than natural healing compensated. Small profit in the end after hides found a buyer.

Only TT Pistol + S10, you dont need something more, its eco

Uamped Bukin is working well. If you need a fap you're doing it wrong.