Developer-Notes #12 - Loot-2.0 Follow-Up

This is the very reason they changed economy to efficiency.. to avoid this confusion.

Sure, but that still doesn't explain why they said "no correlation". Maybe they meant that if you shoot punies with an imk2 your loot won't be good. But who does that?
 
So is Texas Hold'em Poker, but I've never heard poker players arguing about the rules of the game they love/hate to play.
I see you passionately hate figuring out things on your own. Y'know, the thing ppl do in the sandbox games...
Do you hate exploring too? There's too much of that here for sure. Let's scrap all this, publish the loot formula code on a public webpage and supplement an official hunting bot for everybody. That should take care of all the loose ends. :silly2:
 
I see you passionately hate figuring out things on your own. Y'know, the thing ppl do in the sandbox games...
Do you hate exploring too? There's too much of that here for sure. Let's scrap all this, publish the loot formula code on a public webpage and supplement an official hunting bot for everybody. That should take care of all the loose ends. :silly2:

You are carelessly ignoring that to do said figuring it out means to lose several hundred dollars at the pace which us grinders hunt. Coupled with the current volatility, figuring it out might wipe out your entire bankroll.
 
I see you passionately hate figuring out things on your own. Y'know, the thing ppl do in the sandbox games...
Do you hate exploring too? There's too much of that here for sure. Let's scrap all this, publish the loot formula code on a public webpage and supplement an official hunting bot for everybody. That should take care of all the loose ends. :silly2:

Personally I don't need the entire loot system explained in detail, but something more clear than what they have said so far would be nice.
 
You are carelessly ignoring that to do said figuring it out means to lose several hundred dollars at the pace which us grinders hunt. Coupled with the current volatility, figuring it out might wipe out your entire bankroll.
Yep, all true. I am carelessly ignoring that. No risk, no reward.
For those who paid to have a risk-free ride it certainly sucks to be back on square one. Believe me I can feel their pain and I do hope it's not really that bad under those constantly falling skies of EU.

Then again, some people had their careless, easy ride for quite some time... Maybe it's my turn to be careless just this once? ;)

Personally I don't need the entire loot system explained in detail, but something more clear than what they have said so far would be nice.
Yeah, hard to argue with that. Despite all the clarifications it seems to me different statements are conflicting each other. Then again, we're all in the dark and it's still a zero sum game. :cool:
 
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I'm not interested in spending my money testing vague theories.

Please let me know when you have worked out what boxes I need to play in :tiphat:

 
What is Avatar Level?
 
I am doing pretty good since the Loot 2.0 update. To me it seems, its not just pay2win anymore.
You still need to pay, but hunting the right mobs with your setups seems to be more important than just having good setup.
Even with not so good dpp weapon (that model seems now outdated anyways) you can get good results if you just hunt the right mob.
 
I am doing pretty good since the Loot 2.0 update. To me it seems, its not just pay2win anymore.
You still need to pay, but hunting the right mobs with your setups seems to be more important than just having good setup.
Even with not so good dpp weapon (that model seems now outdated anyways) you can get good results if you just hunt the right mob.

Just to add a wrench in your comment.

What if;

you are hunting the wrong mob at the right time with wrong setup? Gd/Bd?
you are hunting the wrong mob at the right time with right setup? Gd?

you are hunting the right mob at the wrong time with wrong setup? Bd?
you are hunting the right mob at the wrong time with right setup? Gd/Bd?

you are hunting the wrong mob at the wrong time with right setup? Bd?
you are hunting the right mob at the right time with wrong setup? Gd?

Get my drift?
 
I am doing pretty good since the Loot 2.0 update. To me it seems, its not just pay2win anymore.
You still need to pay, but hunting the right mobs with your setups seems to be more important than just having good setup.
Even with not so good dpp weapon (that model seems now outdated anyways) you can get good results if you just hunt the right mob.

What is the right mob?
 
You are carelessly ignoring that to do said figuring it out means to lose several hundred dollars at the pace which us grinders hunt. Coupled with the current volatility, figuring it out might wipe out your entire bankroll.

As there is no penalty for hunting lower lvl, you could do your tests with 1k loss max easely..
Adapt or lose
 
As there is no penalty for hunting lower lvl, you could do your tests with 1k loss max easely..
Adapt or lose

that's my boy.back to kerbs now.
 
As there is no penalty for hunting lower lvl, you could do your tests with 1k loss max easely..
Adapt or lose

I just run a little test on harbinger.
1.5k ped run with imk2 + easter 2017 + scope MK2 etc
Corro V TEN as finisher
No armor + mod fap

Results = 65% tt return.

I know it's a little sample but still i don't think i ever got that on this sample size for a low/mid mob
 
As there is no penalty for hunting lower lvl, you could do your tests with 1k loss max easely..
Adapt or lose

No penalty to optimal loot, which is loot composition. I don't think they mentioned tt return.
 
I just run a little test on harbinger.
1.5k ped run with imk2 + easter 2017 + scope MK2 etc
Corro V TEN as finisher
No armor + mod fap

Results = 65% tt return.

I know it's a little sample but still i don't think i ever got that on this sample size for a low/mid mob

Wow by any standard those numbers are bad for something that efficient... before loot 2:0 or even 1:0.
 
I just run a little test on harbinger.
1.5k ped run with imk2 + easter 2017 + scope MK2 etc
Corro V TEN as finisher
No armor + mod fap

Results = 65% tt return.

I know it's a little sample but still i don't think i ever got that on this sample size for a low/mid mob



yes i know what you mean..i am not hunting in this stage of ped-run but i can see kinda similar results and also hear it from other ppl ...

also i dont clearly understand the new infos given on loot 2.0..

there it says healing while doing damage etc is not sooo good ,and a part of additional costs (like armor) goes into the calculation....in another note it says ..hunt with maxed ones and the better eff the better variation (with imk2,that ring+scope there isnt much room left for a better eff stat)

Eddie
 
Anyone got a crap eco gun i could use for a bit?
Want to test something ...

As im using Eron SoulReamer as a main gun with effeciency of 54% and different small finishers, and doing suprisingly ok. A big difference compared to pre 2.0
 
Once again you see the need to offer your opinion and expertise on a subject that you by your own admission, have little real experience of. Yet somehow you see the need to comment on the posts and re-iterate things presumably gleaned from others, or are simply your assumptions - from your personal interpretation - of the limited information provided by MA.
May I humbly suggest that until you have the experience as a mid to high level hunter, and therefore the stats to make informed comment that you restrict yourself to reading and learning from, rather than criticising members who have played this game as opposed to the dabbling of a non-depo busybody. Your posts rarely add any real content other than the sound of your own voice.


I think it's unwise and unfair to judge the value of someone's contributions based solely on perceived experience or dollars spent. From my own dealings with DoA, I've found her to be very bright and quite good with statistics - she's helped me sort out some mechanics that I had trouble with (and had trouble admitting that I had trouble with). Though the large volume of her contributions may be off-putting to some, in general her opinions come from sound reasoning, which is more than I can say for a lot of others.

It's easy to grow a set of blinders when one has been at a particular task for a long period of time. I've been a programmer for the greater part of 30 years now, and I can't tell you how often I've been surprised by fresh vision from new and completely inexperienced developers with nothing but theory behind them. Personally, I find the journey of life is best experienced with open ears and eyes; you can never know what another has to offer.

That said, I'm a fan of the scientific method; so I believe that theories should be measured and tested. I also don't think that anyone except for a handful of individuals at an office in Sweden know the truth. I, for one, am willing to listen to all opinions proffered. In the post Loot 2.0 apocalypse the majority of players I've spoken with have found that nothing that was working is still working. It's time to wipe the board clean and start collecting new data from all willing participants.
 
I think it's unwise and unfair to judge the value of someone's contributions based solely on perceived experience or dollars spent. From my own dealings with DoA, I've found her to be very bright and quite good with statistics - she's helped me sort out some mechanics that I had trouble with (and had trouble admitting that I had trouble with). Though the large volume of her contributions may be off-putting to some, in general her opinions come from sound reasoning, which is more than I can say for a lot of others.

...

It makes me very happy to see this post.
Granny is certainly very experienced, as are lots of others who are put off by DoA's style, but there is a level of understanding of statistics that DoA has which I tend not to observe in others. This should mean that her contributions are useful - as long as you are willing to admit to not quite being up there despite loads of 'experience'.
Ok, one thing I know DoA to be wrong about is whether or not regen 'used to be counted' in 1.0. It certainly was - and by that I mean certainly! Tests were apparently not conclusive, however, about whether it was counted at 100% of the regenned hp, linear or curved, or whether there was also a cut-off point at around 3x basic mob health. Armour decay used to be non-linear - I tend to go with "any mechanism used in one part of a system may well get used in another part too".
Also, on overthinking things, yes, start out with basics, but if you stop thinking at that point, you won't get any further if there is more to be discovered. You shouldn't overbelieve things, true, but considering/thinking things further is necessary in lots of cases.

On loot 2.0, what is interesting me now is whether there is indeed some kind of cap in place, but it does make things more complicated it would seem if that were true. My logic for the workings of loot 1.0 was fairly simple, but introducing a cap above 3.0 efficiency or whatever would actually mean having to penalise a lower kill cost with a lower loot. Would that be on that specific mob? How would switching weaps mid-kill affect that? etc etc.

Not actually having a weap combo that is above the line I also cannot write with 'experience'. Hopefully my thinking is still counted as 'useful', however! ;) Good luck out there on finding 100%+tt ....
 
ALL the knowledge we have of the game, of the loot etc up to Loot 2.0 was garnered by the community through playing and sharing information.

Why is it such a big deal that we now have to do this again?
Think of it as PE v.2 - The community are starting again from a low level of knowledge as to what influences loot return (despite MA giving clues, which is more than we had in the past..), and we now have to produce tools, websites, apps etc. which will allow the collection and dissemination of this information so that in a while we will be back to a similar level of knowledge and those who can will be taking advantage of this knowledge to make their money again...

Embrace this as a challenge.
Those who are crying that this will cost money etc. Remember, the knowledge you have to use was made available by early players spending that money in the first place. And by players continuing to experiment, push the envelope, lose big, win big etc. Contribute or pipe down.

Secondly, who said we MUST make a profit in this game? Everyone seems to forget MA are a company. They need to make a profit to continue. If we all made 100% or more TT, who is going to pay the bills?

Yes, a few may profit for a while. That is the nature of semi random systems where some variables can be controlled by the avatar. But not all. Therefore we should not EXPECT to profit day in and day out. Not even with the most eco gear (if the statements from MA are read, they make clear that ECO is NOT the only variable any more, if it ever has been), as there have been more variables disclosed as affecting both the composition and the value of the loot. The variable may affect both, or one.
Owing to the nature of the variables, those who's gear, playstyle, mob choice, skill level and wallet are closest to the ideal variables will profit more than others (TT profit). This is necessary to have players hear about 'making money in a game', attracting new players and publicity. But again. The likelihood of making a permanent TT profit is remote due to the variables being...well, variable.

Remember, ANYTHING you do which involves getting a return from MA WILL eventually cause your money to run out. Entropia comes from entropy. The law of diminishing returns. Any system where entropy is employed will run out of whatever it is eventually.

Hunting, mining and crafting are all entropic activities, meaning there are enough variables to make a permanent TT profit remote and any money used to partake in these activities will, TT wise, diminish to the point of nothing left. Profit should be made from MU.

Now, MA 'appear' to have changed the composition of loots (or have we done that by no longer being close to the ideal variables?). As such, less consumables are dropping. this will lead to higher MU for consumables as there is less in the marketplace, meaning players (hunting/mining/crafting) will get more % returns and possibly profit. Although this will also mean crafted items become more expensive...inflation, if you will, so no-one will really be any better off.

Less consumables=higher consumable MU = more expensive crafted items = more costs to hunt = less % TT return and the cycle starts again.

The only way to GUARANTEE profit in this game is make money from other players. Provide aservice, trade etc. Anything that does not rely on a 'loot' of any type.

In addition to this brainstorm of mine, I have also had a thought about the 'optimal' loot situation.
If we are hunting for example, and creating decay, this decay may contribute towards the loot from the creature. This would explain the bad returns from those above who are using uber-eco setups creating almost no healing or armour decay. Perhaps the decay is NEEDED to go towards the loot from the creature you are shooting. Minimim decay = minimum loots...
This will change as we as a community change our thinking from being super-eco to finding the ideal cost to kill ratio which will give the best loot returns per mob / maturity of mob.


TL/DR
Contribute to the gaining of knowledge about ideal setups. Stop focusing on the old DPP measure as there are way more variables involved. Be a community and figure this stuff out instead of throwing your toys out of the pram cos you expect to play for free cos you always have.
Things have changed. Change with it. Create the apps which will allow the tailoring of setups.
Have FUN rediscovering EU, as we old-timers did with PE.


Edit: Possibly the wrong post, but also applies to all other posts discussing the changes.
 
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ALL the knowledge we have of the game, of the loot etc up to Loot 2.0 was garnered by the community through playing and sharing information.

Why is it such a big deal that we now have to do this again?
Think of it as PE v.2 - The community are starting again from a low level of knowledge as to what influences loot return (despite MA giving clues, which is more than we had in the past..), and we now have to produce tools, websites, apps etc. which will allow the collection and dissemination of this information so that in a while we will be back to a similar level of knowledge and those who can will be taking advantage of this knowledge to make their money again...

Embrace this as a challenge.
Those who are crying that this will cost money etc. Remember, the knowledge you have to use was made available by early players spending that money in the first place. And by players continuing to experiment, push the envelope, lose big, win big etc. Contribute or pipe down.

Secondly, who said we MUST make a profit in this game? Everyone seems to forget MA are a company. They need to make a profit to continue. If we all made 100% or more TT, who is going to pay the bills?

Yes, a few may profit for a while. That is the nature of semi random systems where some variables can be controlled by the avatar. But not all. Therefore we should not EXPECT to profit day in and day out. Not even with the most eco gear (if the statements from MA are read, they make clear that ECO is NOT the only variable any more, if it ever has been), as there have been more variables disclosed as affecting both the composition and the value of the loot. The variable may affect both, or one.
Owing to the nature of the variables, those who's gear, playstyle, mob choice, skill level and wallet are closest to the ideal variables will profit more than others (TT profit). This is necessary to have players hear about 'making money in a game', attracting new players and publicity. But again. The likelihood of making a permanent TT profit is remote due to the variables being...well, variable.

Remember, ANYTHING you do which involves getting a return from MA WILL eventually cause your money to run out. Entropia comes from entropy. The law of diminishing returns. Any system where entropy is employed will run out of whatever it is eventually.

Hunting, mining and crafting are all entropic activities, meaning there are enough variables to make a permanent TT profit remote and any money used to partake in these activities will, TT wise, diminish to the point of nothing left. Profit should be made from MU.

Now, MA 'appear' to have changed the composition of loots (or have we done that by no longer being close to the ideal variables?). As such, less consumables are dropping. this will lead to higher MU for consumables as there is less in the marketplace, meaning players (hunting/mining/crafting) will get more % returns and possibly profit. Although this will also mean crafted items become more expensive...inflation, if you will, so no-one will really be any better off.

Less consumables=higher consumable MU = more expensive crafted items = more costs to hunt = less % TT return and the cycle starts again.

The only way to GUARANTEE profit in this game is make money from other players. Provide aservice, trade etc. Anything that does not rely on a 'loot' of any type.

In addition to this brainstorm of mine, I have also had a thought about the 'optimal' loot situation.
If we are hunting for example, and creating decay, this decay may contribute towards the loot from the creature. This would explain the bad returns from those above who are using uber-eco setups creating almost no healing or armour decay. Perhaps the decay is NEEDED to go towards the loot from the creature you are shooting. Minimim decay = minimum loots...
This will change as we as a community change our thinking from being super-eco to finding the ideal cost to kill ratio which will give the best loot returns per mob / maturity of mob.


TL/DR
Contribute to the gaining of knowledge about ideal setups. Stop focusing on the old DPP measure as there are way more variables involved. Be a community and figure this stuff out instead of throwing your toys out of the pram cos you expect to play for free cos you always have.
Things have changed. Change with it. Create the apps which will allow the tailoring of setups.
Have FUN rediscovering EU, as we old-timers did with PE.


Edit: Possibly the wrong post, but also applies to all other posts discussing the changes.

Again, you all miss the point with thr complaints. The issue is not about that. The issue is about the frequency of very very poor loots on each mob that is causing intolerable volatility. For example, almost all eomon youngs i shot were 2ped on a 5khp mob. No... just no. On arkadia, although not me.. but someone was getting 70pec loots frequently on a 8.5ped mob. Again.. no.

Most of us wouldnt complain about 98% returns etc.. but there is absolutely no evidence that this is in play. And im not willing to burn 70-100 bucks a day to experiment and contribute.

Weapon compositon was supposed to handle the type of loot you get. It should not have a disaster effect on returns like this for this many. It reeks to me of a broken algorithm OR resource caps being too prohibitive.

If decay is required to do well in hunting, then my sword should be 200k. It would also mean this change is more about getting the planet partners paid more than anything (and perhaps that is needed for better content).
 
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...

For example, almost all eomon youngs i shot were 2ped on a 5khp mob. No... just no. On arkadia, although not me.. but someone was getting 70pec loots frequently on a 8.5ped mob. Again.. no.

...

This. This is the problem. I've said it before, a meaningful minimum loot - a real baseline.

90% minimum loot per kill would be enough for MA to run a global/HoF system on top of in-game activity. Globals would become more meaningful. VASTLY more peds would cycle, and the average casual gamer would not have to be scared of the game.

wouldn't it be nice if we had threads about gaming addiction, instead of gambling addiction? :yay:
 
wouldn't it be nice if we had threads about gaming addiction, instead of gambling addiction? :yay:

Had this prior to Loot 2:0.

A healthy game addiction.

Now after post to Loot 2:0.

A less healthy gambling...?
 
Adapt Or Die.

While this pithy neolithic observation may have a more corporeal application, I wonder if something more appropriate for an online video game might be:

"Adapt or realize it's ultimately a waste of time and money anyway and just move on to something more fun."
 
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