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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by M Rufen Power View Post
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    I want these points in bold to be explained, cause to me they do not make any sense...

    You say that a higher efficiency rating is best to have, and some attachments minus over-amped will improve the rating, but then you are saying regardless of the eco rating, the lower the cost the better.
    i find it easier to seperate DPP into cost and Efficiency into loot modifier. while they are similar in a way. but keep your costs low and let the efficiency adj that 7%

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerham View Post
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    I am impressed by how many people skipped this line

    It is important to note that Optimal Loot only affects loot composition (what you loot), not the loot value (how much you loot).


    Aside from that, dear MA, when you introduce this efficiency thing can you please take a look at the parameter with the same name from mining excavators, so the descriptions would be done in same manner and would refer to the same concept?
    Also this

    In fact most such kills will meet the requirements for Optimal Loot composition.
    meaning its mostly irrelevent, i had little change to loot make up on cyrene, apart from creature loots been much rarer and i think that'll be fixed in mini VU

  3. #33
    Old Alpha DoA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antrace View Post
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    so if i pick the
    A) A-3 Justifier Mk.II Improved Ancient: 55.9 dps - 3.281 eco
    B) DetPil V-Rex 2000, SGA Edition 55.9 dps - 2.812 eco

    same damage, same time to kill and same mob hp regen, same defensive costs

    with a 1000hp mob
    weapon A 3.04 ped to kill
    weapon B) 3.55
    cost B/cost A = 1.16%

    so i expect that cost to kill in loot formula is not directly proportional to loot value
    is not linear, or i cant understand sentence " Efficiency paramter influences no more than 7% of total loot value"

    Edit: or perhaps is capped... at that 7% ..
    So yeah, I think that since in this case we have a single variable, in the "B" scenario you will get a base loot of 116% compared with the "A" scenario, but then the "A" scenario you will also get a bonus (based on the difference of eco between the two, not more than 7%), so in the "B" scenario will get higher returns (in absolute value) compared with the "A" scenario, but lower than 116% (and higher than 107.88%).

    Obviously, that means better return rate (although lower absolute loot value) in the "A" scenario.

    Also, obviously, we talk about averages, the base for multipliers which would stand true only with a statistically relevant sample, obviously not like this would happen on each and every mob.
    Last edited by DoA; 06-27-2017 at 10:17.
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  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Antrace View Post
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    Perhaps someone can help me to hunderstand:

    1 Costs are the largest components in loot value calculations.
    2 Efficiency inticates the costs of a weapon to create damage
    3 Efficiency paramter influences no more than 7% of total loot value

    If i have zero costs for healing and armor -->

    1+2 = efficiency = costs = largest components in loot value

    3 efficiency = 7% of total loot value

    3 does not agree with 1+2

    thanks
    Hi, absolutely spot on! It's what I wanted to post about as well just from reading the OP, so you beat me to it!

    In loot 1.0 I saw that wearing armour compared to none on punies increased my number of low multis to take me above 100% pure kill cost, but still below 100% when considering the then additional armour repair. Along with other observations it made me believe there was some kind of cost 'tracker' in the background, which other people also say compensated partially for using uneco weaps etc. This is not the same as having a personal loot pool - clever wording by MA I think when they denied that such a thing existed...

    Anyway, if MA are being only semi-truthful once again, (i.e. yes, literally the truth, but not the whole truth), then the parameter itself may be included in the equation at a max of 7%, but then again the components of the parameter are included again on their own, i.e. pure cost to kill the mob is one value, the efficiency calculation is a related, but sepatate one.

  5. #35
    Elite Kerham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoA View Post
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    So yeah, I think that since in this case we have a single variable, in the "B" scenario you will get a base loot of 116% compared with the "A" scenario, but then the "A" scenario you will also get a bonus (based on the difference of eco between the two, not more than 7%), so in the "B" scenario will get higher returns (in absolute value) compared with the "A" scenario, but lower than 116% (and higher than 107.88%).
    No. 116% value itself is wrong to begin with. You cannot include it twice, if you also talk about 7%. Or I misunderstood smth?

    Bah sry, read in a haste first time, actually I agree with you.

  6. #36
    Elite Kerham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsina View Post
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    Anyway, if MA are being only semi-truthful once again, (i.e. yes, literally the truth, but not the whole truth), then the parameter itself may be included in the equation at a max of 7%, but then again the components of the parameter are included again on their own, i.e. pure cost to kill the mob is one value, the efficiency calculation is a related, but sepatate one.
    There has to be a certain threshold as a mean to control the economy of hunting, aside from pure supply of various stuff.

  7. #37
    Old Alpha Antrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antrace View Post
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    so if i pick the
    A) A-3 Justifier Mk.II Improved Ancient: 55.9 dps - 3.281 eco
    B) DetPil V-Rex 2000, SGA Edition 55.9 dps - 2.812 eco

    same damage, same time to kill and same mob hp regen, same defensive costs

    with a 1000hp mob
    weapon A 3.04 ped to kill
    weapon B) 3.55
    cost B/cost A = 1.16%

    so i expect that cost to kill in loot formula is not directly proportional to loot value
    is not linear, or i cant understand sentence " Efficiency paramter influences no more than 7% of total loot value"

    Edit: or perhaps is capped... at that 7% ..
    i quote myself

    i'm thinking with u so don't blame me if i write something badly wrong.

    i think that at least there is a cap on cost to kill..

    in other words, if i use weapon B i pay 16% more to kill the mob but i'll see in the loot value a max of +7%.
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  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerham View Post
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    There has to be a certain threshold as a mean to control the economy of hunting, aside from pure supply of various stuff.
    Not sure what you mean by threshold as control.
    Put another way then - on doing 1000 hp damage I expect the base calculation to be at 3dpp, so a loot of 3.33 peds. What I used to see in fact (on 300hp mobs) was basic loots up to 120%, but obviously lots of nothing too (no-looter/frags). My non-multi return was consistantly close to 50% - it was multis which dictated whether or not I got a profit from the run.

    If this was the baseline control, then you quite simply had to use above 3.0 dpp to profit in the long run. Other compensations for inefficiency were always less than 100%, so MA knows it is still statistically safe.

    The problem is getting to know what we have now. We need a range of tests.
    The only thing I know so far is that using the new (L) weaps and amped, for the first time I have a combo which appears to be at very close to 3dpp and my cost to kill arg youngs is indeed 1 ped instead of 1.04 or 1.05.
    I don't yet know if the loot is going to stay the same value long-term as before... (based on still having done 300hp damage, with minimal regen).

    I have a feeling that MA's statement is the wrong way of looking at things once again. Cost to kill is not the absolute factor on which loot is based, but hp inflicted on the mob.
    Last edited by jetsina; 06-27-2017 at 10:40.

  9. #39
    Old Alpha DoA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antrace View Post
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    in other words, if i use weapon B i pay 16% more to kill the mob but i'll see in the loot value a max of +7%.
    The way I read it is that the efficiency factor would represent the difference between eco and uneco hunting.

    As in we'll all get loot proportional with what we spend, and that max 7% would only mean that the efficient, eco hunters will not get results better with more than 7% then an inefficient hunter.

    Imagine it as something like that (oversimplified of course): let's say MAs rake is 2% (like in a casino) and the average loot return is 98%, then:
    - the average hunter will get the average loot return, so 98% of what he spent (not of an average value per mob)
    - the most efficient hunter will get up to 101.5% (98% + 7%/2) of what he spent (not of an average value per mob)
    - the least efficient, reckless hunter will get at least 94.5% (98% - 7%/2) of what he spent (not of an average value per mob)
    - so the difference between least and most efficient hunter is 7% at most (101.5% - 94.5%)

    I suspect said margin was higher than 7% before.

    So by being more efficient, you'll still get better return rates, but there is only so much better that you can get to (7%).

    As said, this is a gross oversimplification, for example not taking into account at all the proportionality of hunters of various efficiency or other additional things/costs, but I think is correct enough to explain the concept.
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  10. #40
    Elite Divinity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertha Bot View Post
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    Developer Notes #12 - Loot 2.0 Follow-Up

    This installment of Developer Notes attempts to clear up some of the questions and misconceptions related to the Version Update 15.15.0 - Loot 2.0.

    Economy Parameter (soon to be renamed Efficiency)
    [*]The largest components by far in loot value calculations are costs, such as weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc. [*]The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value).

    Optimal Loot
    Another feature of Loot 2.0 that has sparked lots of discussion and speculation is Optimal Loot.

    It is important to note that Optimal Loot only affects loot composition (what you loot), not the loot value (how much you loot). There is no Optimal Loot penalty for hunting creatures that are well below your avatar’s level; in fact most such kills will meet the requirements for Optimal Loot composition.

    To best achieve Optimal Loot:
    • Be sure to have the Hit Ability and Damage profession requirements maxed (10.0/10.0) on the weapon your avatar is using.
    • Avoid over-amping (using a weapon amplifier that adds more than 50% of the maximum damage of the weapon to which it is equipped).
    • Minimize healing costs and the need to interrupt damage dealing to heal.

    In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.
    So to summarize, there is quality of loot and quantity of loot.

    Quantity of Loot will be dependant on weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc.

    Efficiency basically does lower the ammo and weapon deterioration but from the 7% statement to me that means that given the buffs etc these days, the weapon itself forms a lower % (insignificant) contribution. So say those weapons from 50-60 eco/eff rating basically will have little to no effect at all in terms of % return.

    Quality of Loot or Optimal loot which you say is separate, however i see it as a function of the quantity parameter itself. Quality will be good if quantity of loot as a % is high, aka being highly efficient in your hunting style.

    Not clear on the minimize healing cost. The way i read it is that regen will be penalised badly only in terms of quality of loot, not the quantity but i am guessing quantity will also be affected as with regen cost of killing the mob increases as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bertha Bot View Post
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    Crafting, Resources and Economy
    MindArk is working on restructuring and streamlining the item situation in Entropia Universe. This involves many changes to the crafting system and loot distribution, with the goal of reducing the number of components, resources and similar items in the universe, to ensure that the majority of items have a place within the economy.

    The balance between looted and crafted items, along with items from other sources such as events, competitions, strongboxes, etc., will be improved to strike a better balance.

    New blueprints will use existing components and resources as much as possible to sustain a thriving and interdependent economy between crafting, mining and hunting.


    Originally Posted Here
    I am very happy that this is being worked on and i think it is critical to overhaul the system to make crafting indispensable to all other professions and vice versa.


    Observation : Since decay and not mu goes into loot quality evaluation, is it safe to say that the L weapons with high efficiency ( provided everything else remains same) will result in better loot quality then the UL counterparts. (The logic being mu part of L cannot be taken into calculating loot quality). This will be a boost to the crafting and a much needed one may i say so.

    Overall good communication and good work MA. Keep it up.

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