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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoA View Post
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    example (fake number): kill a mob with a 10 PED cost and you will get 9 PED loot (90%); kill same mob with a 8 PED cost (for example by avoiding regen) and you will get 7.5 PED loot (93.75%) - 9 > 7.5, but 90% < 93.75%
    Doesn't explain why about 30 Osseocollum killed had no more than 5 ped in loot, the vast majority being 1 to 2 peds, hell, one was 90 pec.

    MA can write what the hell they wanna write, doesn't change the facts that loot's still gorfed to hell.


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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarGlider View Post
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    30 Osseocollum killed
    Actually, that explains it very well.

    Sure, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but personally I disregard any opinion not based on a statistically relevant sample.
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  3. #43
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    Here we go again with sample sizes.

    If I carried on, killing more (ie chasing a global or a hof) just to break even, when the 1st round of mobs are looting on average 2 ped, I do not suddenly think I'll see them looting little by little better over time.

    I swear the next person who says sample size needs to be higher, is gonna get a boot up the bum

    Also says nothing of the Goki wave boss, I pumped 80 ped in, died once, and got 17 ped in loot back, with 6 or 7 other people last week.


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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by DoA View Post
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    The way I read it is that the efficiency factor would represent the difference between eco and uneco hunting.
    Very good post indeed! It is the sort of logic I'd try and implement, I think, but the question is how the horse pulls the cart and not the cart the horse.
    What is the definition of 100% efficiency, by the way now? Is the RDI energy amp the closest we have to 100% to calculate it from?
    Or, another way, what is the break-even point at least in terms of this efficiency factor? Is it 66.7%

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerham View Post
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    I am impressed by how many people skipped this line

    It is important to note that Optimal Loot only affects loot composition (what you loot), not the loot value (how much you loot).
    It will take a lot more repetition. If this doesn't help, measures may need to escalate through various stages of Clockwork Orange style sessions up to maybe hammers on toenails.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antrace View Post
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    so if i pick the
    A) A-3 Justifier Mk.II Improved Ancient: 55.9 dps - 3.281 eco
    B) DetPil V-Rex 2000, SGA Edition 55.9 dps - 2.812 eco

    same damage, same time to kill and same mob hp regen, same defensive costs

    with a 1000hp mob
    weapon A 3.04 ped to kill
    weapon B) 3.55
    cost B/cost A = 1.16%

    so i expect that cost to kill in loot formula is not directly proportional to loot value
    is not linear, or i cant understand sentence " Efficiency paramter influences no more than 7% of total loot value"
    The same will not be applicable in real time hunting as for a mob with 1000 hp there is a big chance of high overkill resulting in high cost with vrex2ksga compared to imk2 on any statistically relevant sample size.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsina View Post
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    Very good post indeed! It is the sort of logic I'd try and implement, I think, but the question is how the horse pulls the cart and not the cart the horse.
    What is the definition of 100% efficiency, by the way now? Is the RDI energy amp the closest we have to 100% to calculate it from?
    Or, another way, what is the break-even point at least in terms of this efficiency factor? Is it 66.7%
    I doubt it ever is or was linear or based on a fixed amount.

    Think we're just comparing our own efficiency with the efficiency of the average hunter (eventually with the average hunter hunting the same mob) and that is obviously a variable, not a constant.

    Anyway, if previously you based your estimation on the DPP (or a 3.0 DPP more exactly as I think you previously mention) you can just translate that back in the new efficiency rating if that suits you since we already have the formulas.

    eco rating = 11.5*(max_dmg/cost)^2!- 44*max_dmg/cost + 41.9
    combined_Eco=(sum [cost(x)*eco(x)])/(sum(cost(n))

    Personally, though I will not try to compare myself with a fixed value (which probably wouldn't be true anyway), but just go with the general principle of "trying to increase my efficiency as much as possible and it is what it is".
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarGlider View Post
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    Here we go again with sample sizes.

    If I carried on, killing more (ie chasing a global or a hof) just to break even, when the 1st round of mobs are looting on average 2 ped, I do not suddenly think I'll see them looting little by little better over time.

    I swear the next person who says sample size needs to be higher, is gonna get a boot up the bum

    Also says nothing of the Goki wave boss, I pumped 80 ped in, died once, and got 17 ped in loot back, with 6 or 7 other people last week.
    Well, it is a fact that, without (the big) multipliers, returns would be low (looking at different sources estimations vary between ~50% and ~80%) and that's exactly why we need a statistically relevant sample, because otherwise, returns would be terribly low (without said multipliers) or amazingly good (if you get one such multiplier in a small sample).

    Hope that makes sense, otherwise please just use a softer boot. :P
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  9. #49
    Oh, and another thing - when I have lots of misses on a mob, my cost to kill that mob was higher, but I've never seen a general effect of higher loot on those (as long as regen is very low). I used to see that regen was at least partially considered, yes!
    So it is unlikely that the cost to kill any one particular mob is directly used in the loot equation. How much damage you did to it (not overkill), yes. I still think we have to look for a generic baseline for, say, 30 hp damage, 300, or whatever.

    Is there a fast regen but low hp mob on caly that we can kill in highish numbers but while tracking approximately how much regen we allowed them?

  10. #50
    Marauder M Rufen Power's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoA View Post
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    They're two different things.

    First, is calculated the loot value (in terms of TT value) and there the efficiency has a role in formula (up to 7%)

    Then, once the value of the loot was determined, is calculated the composition of loot (so either optimal loot or just shrapnel); there efficiency no longer has any role and only cost to kill is taken into consideration.
    Okay so high efficiency = higher quantity of loot. That is fine and I get that. Then after efficiency loot then gets composed, so optimal loot is other than shrapnel being looted. Okay. So what you are saying is similar to what Deth Divinity is saying quoted below. That is fine and I appreciate that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Divinity View Post
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    So to summarize, there is quality of loot and quantity of loot.

    Quantity of Loot will be dependant on weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc.

    Efficiency basically does lower the ammo and weapon deterioration but from the 7% statement to me that means that given the buffs etc these days, the weapon itself forms a lower % (insignificant) contribution. So say those weapons from 50-60 eco/eff rating basically will have little to no effect at all in terms of % return.

    Quality of Loot or Optimal loot which you say is separate, however i see it as a function of the quantity parameter itself. Quality will be good if quantity of loot as a % is high, aka being highly efficient in your hunting style.

    Not clear on the minimize healing cost. The way i read it is that regen will be penalised badly only in terms of quality of loot, not the quantity but i am guessing quantity will also be affected as with regen cost of killing the mob increases as well.
    Now this is my issue with this statement, and I will try to both explain and reason it out.


    I totally understand what you are both saying, now this is my issue with MA said statement.


    My efficiency with current setup is not only producing more TT (QUANTITY) but also is generating more (QUALITY) at the same time, even though cost to kill is 13.43% (HIGHER).

    That is what I am not understanding, cause if their statement was true and the facts are the same as they have always been with some tweaks taken into considerations with loot composition, then I would not mind it at all.

    So how on calypso I am able to generate more TT and MU with cost to kill is increased is hard to fathom, and before this VU the mob I am speaking about generated less markup loots without the additional efficiency being added to my setup. Unless of course decay is being factored in a more major way than before, which then begs me to question MA's statements to some degree.

    I hope I have explained my situation clearly and someone can answer me.
    Last edited by M Rufen Power; 06-27-2017 at 11:27.

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