Menu
What's New
By:
Filters

What are your thoughts about owning an UL -non-sib, un-maxed after the new VU

I have 2 such weapons!

As long I have better eco L options, those will sit in storage untill I have the skills to use it.

Easy as that, selling it is not an option for me.
 
i always thought my mph dlx was a hell of eco with all enh at tier 5 (unique in game ! :yay: )
and it's the case, i checked some L guns and my eco % on it shown by mindark is better than them ;)
 
Last edited:
Charlie|MindArk said:
Using weapons that you do not have maxed skills for now has a considerably smaller negative impact on the "loot value" than it did in the past. Not dealing the full potential damage with each shot used to negatively affect the "loot value" returns greatly but now primarily negatively affect the "loot composition". For the "skill misses" (not evades) these still do affect your "loot value" returns negatively as they did in the past.
Click to expand...

Alongside the other dev note addition:

"The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value)"
 
Last edited:
Charlie|MindArk said:
Let's see if I understood the question correctly.

There is no separate added "punishment" for not using a maxed weapon. The downside of using non-maxed weapons is still just a consequence of not doing the full damage potential and missing a few extra shots.

Using weapons that you do not have maxed skills for now has a considerably smaller negative impact on the "loot value" than it did in the past. Not dealing the full potential damage with each shot used to negatively affect the "loot value" returns greatly but now primarily negatively affect the "loot composition". For the "skill misses" (not evades) these still do affect your "loot value" returns negatively as they did in the past.

However as stated in the Dev notes #11
"A special hunting bonus pool will be implemented that will distribute funds from various sources, including skill misses, PVP, marketing and special events, which will improve overall loot returns for all participants." So the decay and ammo usage generated by missed attacks can sometimes find its way back to you.

With that said MindArk still always recommend using maxed out equipment for better results but the downside to not doing so is now smaller than before.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you guys did with the old MA that was always super cryptic and wouldn't respond in public about questions like this.. but please hide the bodies lol!
 
sachi.mk2 said:
Alongside the other dev note addition:

"The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value)"

I guess the days of caring about owning a maxed gun or a high dpp gun are all but over. Most guns will probably produce nearly identical loot, unless it's an imk2 with all the additional goodies.
Click to expand...


Quite the opposite, actually. Unfortunately very few people will read this and even less will understand or trust it.

MA should have predicted that putting a single quantitative value for effeciency on a weapon would cause everyone to seek whatever gave them the highest value, regardless of how relatively insignificant the impact may be.

That is currently what is happening. Someone is trying to sell RepEdge 2x0 axes in AH for +180 each. The Adj. Boiga has almost doubled in price. The LR 4 and Bullseye 8 are through the roof. People are spending an extra 1000 peds for attachments just to boost their weapon efficiency rating by a fraction of a percent.

Reading the above follow-up note was highly perplexing to me. If it's so unimportant, then why did they even put it there, they should have just left it out and let people use whatever they like. Now they've turned it into a religion.


"Hey guys, we are now putting a number on all items that tells you how effective they are; but don't really pay any attention to it, it's not that important."
 
Detritus said:
Quite the opposite, actually. Unfortunately very few people will read this and even less will understand or trust it.

MA should have predicted that putting a single quantitative value for effeciency on a weapon would cause everyone to seek whatever gave them the highest value, regardless of how relatively insignificant the impact may be.

That is currently what is happening. Someone is trying to sell RepEdge 2x0 axes in AH for +180 each. The Adj. Boiga has almost doubled in price. The LR 4 and Bullseye 8 are through the roof. People are spending an extra 1000 peds for attachments just to boost their weapon efficiency rating by a fraction of a percent.

Reading the above follow-up note was highly perplexing to me. If it's so unimportant, then why did they even put it there, they should have just left it out and let people use whatever they like. Now they've turned it into a religion.


"Hey guys, we are now putting a number on all items that tells you how effective they are; but don't really pay any attention to it, it's not that important."
Click to expand...


So, these seem to be two separate things that MA is trying to do here. The economy rating is just to help new players to not buy Jesters. That's almost incidental, and people are really paying too much attention to it. The second thing is, they are really trying to change the loot structure. By lowering the penalty for using unmaxed weapons, they are continuing to narrow the gap between the uber players from before the skill nerf and mid level players now. They've been doing that for awhile, with mission rewards, skill buffs, rings, and so on. This gives uber hunters using UL non-SIB weapons less advantage by allowing lower skilled players to use the same weapons more efficiently than in the past. But, so what about the ubers?

Awhile back, I did an analysis on how I thought the economy of EU was changing. One of the things I thought I saw was MA trying to "flatten" MU by reducing stackables in loots, especially HOFs, to reduce market volatility. I thought that was a good idea, no more oil HOFs, but (like others) I saw various problems if there was less reason for ubers to hunt high maturities. So, if I understand this right, now high value items like ESIs and shopkeeper pads are only likely to go to high level hunters killing high maturity mobs, to say nothing of rare weapons and pieces of armor.
 
matthew said:
I think the new loot system is far more transparent and is a great improvement over the old system. That said it is a little sad for us in this situation.

My EP-40 merc gives me an efficiency of 55 :( lol. I was always "happy" with the loot I received with the gun (and have been using it when I hunt since before VU 10 and before anyone cared about eco). However now I think the penalty for using it is too high and it is maybe time to change :laugh:
Click to expand...

I saw the EP-40 when I first started and bought one not knowing anything about anything. I recall one of the numbers was 1.2/10 and didn't really know what that mean but who cares lets have fun. Got my first HOF after about 2 or 3 months playing (in 2008) 649 ped and change and never looked at number again for I don't know how long. BTW it was probably 4 or 5 months later before I got a 50 ped global.
 
Charlie|MindArk said:
Let's see if I understood the question correctly.

There is no separate added "punishment" for not using a maxed weapon. The downside of using non-maxed weapons is still just a consequence of not doing the full damage potential and missing a few extra shots.

Using weapons that you do not have maxed skills for now has a considerably smaller negative impact on the "loot value" than it did in the past. Not dealing the full potential damage with each shot used to negatively affect the "loot value" returns greatly but now primarily negatively affect the "loot composition". For the "skill misses" (not evades) these still do affect your "loot value" returns negatively as they did in the past.

However as stated in the Dev notes #11
"A special hunting bonus pool will be implemented that will distribute funds from various sources, including skill misses, PVP, marketing and special events, which will improve overall loot returns for all participants." So the decay and ammo usage generated by missed attacks can sometimes find its way back to you.

With that said MindArk still always recommend using maxed out equipment for better results but the downside to not doing so is now smaller than before.
Click to expand...

I like what you say but I still have not got a global since the first day of Loot 2.0:(
 
CozMoDan said:
I like what you say but I still have not got a global since the first day of Loot 2.0:(
Click to expand...

keep trying... finally got first myself tonight. Measly11 pedder, but still, global is a global.
 
Detritus said:
That is currently what is happening. Someone is trying to sell RepEdge 2x0 axes in AH for +180 each. The Adj. Boiga has almost doubled in price. The LR 4 and Bullseye 8 are through the roof. People are spending an extra 1000 peds for attachments just to boost their weapon efficiency rating by a fraction of a percent.
Click to expand...

I understand some lasers and scopes help dpp and being efficient

But weren't all other attachments essentially useless? Beyond apparently increased skillgains from the extra decay and some use on non maxed weapons?

Seems odd that the new efficiency rating goes up to me, considering they make you less efficient far as I knew, but I've not used attachments in a long time.

Guess Loot 2.0 has changed it up somehow.
 
Last edited:
Zanathos said:
I understand some lasers and scopes help dpp and being efficient

But weren't all other attachments essentially useless? Beyond apparently increased skillgains from the extra decay and some use on non maxed weapons?

Seems odd that the new efficiency rating goes up to me, considering they make you less efficient far as I knew, but I've not used attachments in a long time.

Guess Loot 2.0 has changed it up somehow.
Click to expand...

Or we were wrong all along :)
 
I do not post much, but I have been playing this game on and off for nearly 10 years and have a pretty good grasp on the game. That being said, here is what I believe has been done:

As far as I can tell from my own testing and gathering data from other economic dpp focused hunters, what they have pretty much done is taken away a lot of the penalties that used to be there for playing inefficiently. They accomplished this by lowering the base loot multipliers on most mobs, while raising the compensation for decay and adding/buffing the compensation for healing and armor decay.

In theory, this would make loot slightly to moderately better for people who were using unmaxed guns, guns without high dpp, or using armor/healing more than absolutely necessary. On the other hand, those of us who focused on dpp and being as efficient as possible will see worse returns. The ability to profit on TT returns using high dpp setups, especially hunting smaller hp mobs, has been significantly nerfed as a result of this, which is likely paying for the increased loot for the rest of the player base.

Now I admit that it is still really early, and I am not claiming 100% certainty on any of this, but everything I have seen in my own game play, the game play of those I know personally in game, and what I have read on this forum all point to me being pretty close here. Personally, I am likely to be scaling back my hunting as what I enjoyed about the profession has been nerfed into the ground.

To get back to the OP question, if I am even remotely correct you are better off using that non SIB unmaxed weapon now than any other time in recent memory.
 
Jade Fuctone said:
I do not post much, but I have been playing this game on and off for nearly 10 years and have a pretty good grasp on the game. That being said, here is what I believe has been done:

As far as I can tell from my own testing and gathering data from other economic dpp focused hunters, what they have pretty much done is taken away a lot of the penalties that used to be there for playing inefficiently. They accomplished this by lowering the base loot multipliers on most mobs, while raising the compensation for decay and adding/buffing the compensation for healing and armor decay.

In theory, this would make loot slightly to moderately better for people who were using unmaxed guns, guns without high dpp, or using armor/healing more than absolutely necessary. On the other hand, those of us who focused on dpp and being as efficient as possible will see worse returns. The ability to profit on TT returns using high dpp setups, especially hunting smaller hp mobs, has been significantly nerfed as a result of this, which is likely paying for the increased loot for the rest of the player base.

Now I admit that it is still really early, and I am not claiming 100% certainty on any of this, but everything I have seen in my own game play, the game play of those I know personally in game, and what I have read on this forum all point to me being pretty close here. Personally, I am likely to be scaling back my hunting as what I enjoyed about the profession has been nerfed into the ground.

To get back to the OP question, if I am even remotely correct you are better off using that non SIB unmaxed weapon now than any other time in recent memory.
Click to expand...

First there was markup, and it was good.

Then there was no markup but high dpp, and it was good.

Then there was no markup and dpp was nerfed, and...
 
Jade Fuctone said:
I do not post much, but I have been playing this game on and off for nearly 10 years and have a pretty good grasp on the game. That being said, here is what I believe has been done:

As far as I can tell from my own testing and gathering data from other economic dpp focused hunters, what they have pretty much done is taken away a lot of the penalties that used to be there for playing inefficiently. They accomplished this by lowering the base loot multipliers on most mobs, while raising the compensation for decay and adding/buffing the compensation for healing and armor decay.

In theory, this would make loot slightly to moderately better for people who were using unmaxed guns, guns without high dpp, or using armor/healing more than absolutely necessary. On the other hand, those of us who focused on dpp and being as efficient as possible will see worse returns. The ability to profit on TT returns using high dpp setups, especially hunting smaller hp mobs, has been significantly nerfed as a result of this, which is likely paying for the increased loot for the rest of the player base.

Now I admit that it is still really early, and I am not claiming 100% certainty on any of this, but everything I have seen in my own game play, the game play of those I know personally in game, and what I have read on this forum all point to me being pretty close here. Personally, I am likely to be scaling back my hunting as what I enjoyed about the profession has been nerfed into the ground.

To get back to the OP question, if I am even remotely correct you are better off using that non SIB unmaxed weapon now than any other time in recent memory.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I am seeing majority of non sib players getting easy TT gains. Reduced loot across the board for players who hunt efficiently using SIB and easy TT losses. I think DPP now has been Nerf substantially, this new efficiency parameter only contributes to 7% to said loot? So IMK2 > rest of items in-game by only 7%? If that is not a Nerf then this loot needs a fix soon because even MA staff are saying "maxed" weapons are more beneficial than "unmaxed" for which I am seeing the opposite.
 
M Rufen Power said:
This is exactly what I am seeing majority of non sib players getting easy TT gains. Reduced loot across the board for players who hunt efficiently using SIB and easy TT losses. I think DPP now has been Nerf substantially, this new efficiency parameter only contributes to 7% to said loot? So IMK2 > rest of items in-game by only 7%? If that is not a Nerf then this loot needs a fix soon because even MA staff are saying "maxed" weapons are more beneficial than "unmaxed" for which I am seeing the opposite.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's so much a nerf as giving crafted old school weapons a purpose that they didn't used to have... People bitched for months and months and months and months about explosive crafting being the only crafting being done. With the changes, crafters are likely to try something else. Instead of calling it a nerf on certain weapons, perhaps it should be called a nerf on ep crafting as a lot of those crafters had skill in the explosives crafting they upped all those months which will likely get nerfed even more soon.
 
Charlie|MindArk said:
Let's see if I understood the question correctly.

There is no separate added "punishment" for not using a maxed weapon. The downside of using non-maxed weapons is still just a consequence of not doing the full damage potential and missing a few extra shots.

Using weapons that you do not have maxed skills for now has a considerably smaller negative impact on the "loot value" than it did in the past. Not dealing the full potential damage with each shot used to negatively affect the "loot value" returns greatly but now primarily negatively affect the "loot composition". For the "skill misses" (not evades) these still do affect your "loot value" returns negatively as they did in the past.

However as stated in the Dev notes #11
"A special hunting bonus pool will be implemented that will distribute funds from various sources, including skill misses, PVP, marketing and special events, which will improve overall loot returns for all participants." So the decay and ammo usage generated by missed attacks can sometimes find its way back to you.

With that said MindArk still always recommend using maxed out equipment for better results but the downside to not doing so is now smaller than before.
Click to expand...

Thats super clear to me as far as intent is concerned. Basically you are doing what i have been saying for years, tighten the net. The gap between the casual gamer and the ones who make EU there lifestyle is being bridged. Very good news for most of EU.

I am glad at whoever got back the reins at MA to be making such changes. A 7-15% deviation between the best and the worst is what it should be and am glad that is what we are intending to do.

Now the difficult part is actually implementing it. I hope you are able to do that and stop all the ped leaks in the game.
 
Jade Fuctone said:
I do not post much, but I have been playing this game on and off for nearly 10 years and have a pretty good grasp on the game. That being said, here is what I believe has been done:

As far as I can tell from my own testing and gathering data from other economic dpp focused hunters, what they have pretty much done is taken away a lot of the penalties that used to be there for playing inefficiently. They accomplished this by lowering the base loot multipliers on most mobs, while raising the compensation for decay and adding/buffing the compensation for healing and armor decay.

In theory, this would make loot slightly to moderately better for people who were using unmaxed guns, guns without high dpp, or using armor/healing more than absolutely necessary. On the other hand, those of us who focused on dpp and being as efficient as possible will see worse returns. The ability to profit on TT returns using high dpp setups, especially hunting smaller hp mobs, has been significantly nerfed as a result of this, which is likely paying for the increased loot for the rest of the player base.

Now I admit that it is still really early, and I am not claiming 100% certainty on any of this, but everything I have seen in my own game play, the game play of those I know personally in game, and what I have read on this forum all point to me being pretty close here. Personally, I am likely to be scaling back my hunting as what I enjoyed about the profession has been nerfed into the ground.

To get back to the OP question, if I am even remotely correct you are better off using that non SIB unmaxed weapon now than any other time in recent memory.
Click to expand...

That is pretty much how it is as per my observation as well. However we differ in view as far as effects for the game. How many people are there who can afford to buy 50k usd worth of stuff just to be able to play a game and who are willing to play a game and get somewhere in it. This needed to change and despite the fact that i will lose a few k USD's myself based on this, I am glad this was done as it was completely stupid earlier on.

Yes we will see summer/easter/est's/crit buffs for sale as the insane advantage they offered is no longer going to be there. It will make the game more affordable for most.
 
Last edited:
Divinity said:
That is pretty much how it is as per my observation as well. However we differ in view as far as effects for the game. How many people are there who can afford to buy 50k usd worth of stuff just to be able to play a game and who are willing to play a game and get somewhere in it. This needed to change and despite the fact that i will lose a few k USD's myself based on this, I am glad this was done as it was completely stupid earlier on.

Yes we will see summer/easter/est's/crit buffs for sale as the insane advantage they offered is no longer going to be there. It will make the game more affordable for most.
Click to expand...

The gap's definitely been bridged tighter, which one of my buddies prognosticated prior to this VU which I thought wasn't going to happen, but it did and with now many uber gears on sale, 50% off anyone?
 
Speaking about 7% difference in loot, some people don't seem to grasp the magnitude. Psychologically few % difference might seem like insignificant trifle. Especially if you're casual Sunday player and/or on the lower end of the DPS scale.
Translate it into tens and hundreds of thousands of peds cycled and then look at the absolute numbers. Global economy can't endure higher strains, 7% difference is quite enough.

If there's problems with balancing it's somewhere else, not in the fact that max DPP difference results in 7% TT diff in the loot.
 
M Rufen Power said:
This is exactly what I am seeing majority of non sib players getting easy TT gains. Reduced loot across the board for players who hunt efficiently using SIB and easy TT losses. I think DPP now has been Nerf substantially, this new efficiency parameter only contributes to 7% to said loot? So IMK2 > rest of items in-game by only 7%? If that is not a Nerf then this loot needs a fix soon because even MA staff are saying "maxed" weapons are more beneficial than "unmaxed" for which I am seeing the opposite.
Click to expand...

can u pm me that 7% thing that mindark sayd? i cant find it online
 
I tried one run hunting the same way I have been my entire time playing. Hunting alpha and domi kerbbies on this run. I had no loots of 2 ped or over, 30% of loots were 1-1.5 ped and the rest were all under 1 ped. Loss percent 45.3%.
 
Divinity said:
That is pretty much how it is as per my observation as well. However we differ in view as far as effects for the game. How many people are there who can afford to buy 50k usd worth of stuff just to be able to play a game and who are willing to play a game and get somewhere in it. This needed to change and despite the fact that i will lose a few k USD's myself based on this, I am glad this was done as it was completely stupid earlier on.

Yes we will see summer/easter/est's/crit buffs for sale as the insane advantage they offered is no longer going to be there. It will make the game more affordable for most.
Click to expand...

While I agree that this was likely the target of MA's action, there was collateral damage. Although I do deposit from time to time, I have nowhere near that much PED. I do not have a MM or IMK or any of those items. My entire setup could have been purchased for around 2k PED, so far from the uber gear your talking about. I profited small amounts by using highly economical lower damage gear and used that to kill mobs between 200-1400 hp. Not every run was a winner, and sometimes I decided to just throw caution away and buy a big L gun and go shoot an event mob for a gamble, but I knew that I could always fall back on playing smart and I would break even at worst over the course of a few thousand PED cycle.

Now I did have a goal of reaching level 100 and unlocking those non sib guns making them economical for me which is what I was working on, but I was not there yet. To me it is like they created a game, let me work to figure out the rules of the game, then told me "Nah just kidding" and pulled the rug out. I know I am in the minority, and most did not want to spend the time figuring out how to be eco on a budget, but that was actually what I enjoyed about this game the most.

I am just glad that my investments were fairly minor, and I did get entertainment over the years that I have played. Half the fun for myself was figuring this stuff out, so I probably did get my moneys worth but it is a shame that my end goal post has been removed.

I feel much worse for those who spent 50k ped on a gun that no longer offers the advantage it once did. Maybe they can still profit on that extreme end of the dps/dpp combination, I would not know for certain, and now I likely will not ever know.

I think bridging the gap between those that have the highest end gear and those do not is fine to some extent. Making more guns viable is a good thing, and offering better alternatives to people without 100k PED in their account is great. However, taking away the reward for doing your research and playing smart to make the game easier on people who just want to go out there and blast away at whatever with whatever is a pretty lame tactic.
 
jade fuctone said:
however, taking away the reward for doing your research and playing smart to make the game easier on people who just want to go out there and blast away at whatever with whatever is a pretty lame tactic.
Click to expand...

+rep but must spread some blah blah.
 
Jade Fuctone said:
While I agree that this was likely the target of MA's action, there was collateral damage. Although I do deposit from time to time, I have nowhere near that much PED. I do not have a MM or IMK or any of those items. My entire setup could have been purchased for around 2k PED, so far from the uber gear your talking about. I profited small amounts by using highly economical lower damage gear and used that to kill mobs between 200-1400 hp. Not every run was a winner, and sometimes I decided to just throw caution away and buy a big L gun and go shoot an event mob for a gamble, but I knew that I could always fall back on playing smart and I would break even at worst over the course of a few thousand PED cycle.

Now I did have a goal of reaching level 100 and unlocking those non sib guns making them economical for me which is what I was working on, but I was not there yet. To me it is like they created a game, let me work to figure out the rules of the game, then told me "Nah just kidding" and pulled the rug out. I know I am in the minority, and most did not want to spend the time figuring out how to be eco on a budget, but that was actually what I enjoyed about this game the most.

I am just glad that my investments were fairly minor, and I did get entertainment over the years that I have played. Half the fun for myself was figuring this stuff out, so I probably did get my moneys worth but it is a shame that my end goal post has been removed.

I feel much worse for those who spent 50k ped on a gun that no longer offers the advantage it once did. Maybe they can still profit on that extreme end of the dps/dpp combination, I would not know for certain, and now I likely will not ever know.

I think bridging the gap between those that have the highest end gear and those do not is fine to some extent. Making more guns viable is a good thing, and offering better alternatives to people without 100k PED in their account is great. However, taking away the reward for doing your research and playing smart to make the game easier on people who just want to go out there and blast away at whatever with whatever is a pretty lame tactic.
Click to expand...

+rep, many of my feelings there.
 
Jade Fuctone said:
However, taking away the reward for doing your research and playing smart to make the game easier on people who just want to go out there and blast away at whatever with whatever is a pretty lame tactic.
Click to expand...

Who said the reward for doing research has changed or playing smart will not work ?? All i see is people who wanted what worked yesterday to work today as well and not willing to adapt or try anything new.

Also if you are a company whom would you care for more, the hand that feeds you or the hand that does not?? So the segment of people who are ready to go and blast are the ones sponsoring the game, not the eco nerds who are trying to break even on there returns.
 
Fifth said:
Speaking about 7% difference in loot, some people don't seem to grasp the magnitude. Psychologically few % difference might seem like insignificant trifle. Especially if you're casual Sunday player and/or on the lower end of the DPS scale.
Translate it into tens and hundreds of thousands of peds cycled and then look at the absolute numbers. Global economy can't endure higher strains, 7% difference is quite enough.

If there's problems with balancing it's somewhere else, not in the fact that max DPP difference results in 7% TT diff in the loot.
Click to expand...

7% is a big difference.
 
Last edited:
sachi.mk2 said:
Agreed. 7% is a big difference. I guess it depends where this 7% ratio begins and ends. If level 0 efficiency is 0% extra loot value and level 100 7% extra loot value, then the gap between most players will be 0.70%. So, 7000ped over 3 years if someone shoots 1000ped every single day. Factor in luck, I can't see a massive attraction to spending big money for most 'eco' gear.
Click to expand...

Agreed. + Rep.
 
sachi.mk2 said:
I can't see a massive attraction to spending big money for most 'eco' gear.
Click to expand...

Well, man, you didn't start yesterday. How much was imk2 early 2006, what was mid-bubble 2009 and what is now? Mod fap? Do I have memory problems quantifying a modfap at roughly 30k$? Or maybe was it 40k$? Adj fap which now would be lolable I know for sure was sold for 44k ped mid-bubble. Shadow? Angel? MM? Enough skillchips to get, say, coolness?

I am sorry for those who payed huge money, but I can't see why it should exist in first place a massive attraction for paying tens of thousands of bucks for a vr wep. Not a LA, not some sort of industry thing, a weapon. C'mon.
 
Divinity said:
Who said the reward for doing research has changed or playing smart will not work ?? All i see is people who wanted what worked yesterday to work today as well and not willing to adapt or try anything new.

Also if you are a company whom would you care for more, the hand that feeds you or the hand that does not?? So the segment of people who are ready to go and blast are the ones sponsoring the game, not the eco nerds who are trying to break even on there returns.
Click to expand...

I've been playing for 12 years now. The whole time spent skilling up and investing bit by bit to get to a point where I could profit from the game, from a high tt return plus some markup. Just when I'm about reaching that point the rug is pulled out. I shouldn't be upset? People who may have had the value of expensive items cut in half shouldn't be upset? By the way, inspiration for that came from watching more skilled and better geared players do well. If the end game isn't that great anymore, where is the inspiration? Skil up for a decade and invest thousands of dollars so you can... lose less! Woohoo!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top