The remaining 93% of loot value

In the recent developer notes #12 it was stated:

• The largest components by far in loot value calculations are costs, such as weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc.
• The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value).

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From this thread:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?298429-Developer-Notes-12-Loot-2-0-Follow-Up


So for the purposes of this discussion I'm going to ask you to ignore the Effiency parameter as it is now called completely and concentrate instead on the remaining 93% in loot value calculations. (100%-7% = 93%)

Specifically which hunting set ups are best to maximise loot value. The 93% of the loot value formula that takes into account costs, such as weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc.

That's going to be different for different mobs so I'm concentrating on Proteron as I prefer to hunt them.

So under loot 2.0 which sets ups are better than others to maximise loot on Proteron?

I do love MA posts.

What if they went on to say "....however the 10/10 hit ability stat is 20% of the loot return variable".

Rick

edit: just using a random percentage for the above, to make a point.

Thanks Rick. While we don't know the loot formula the purpose of my thread was to shift from thinking about efficiency rating and to consider the other factors that we know are taken into account costs, weapon deterioration etc. Which sets ups fair better than others from what we do know.

Sure ok.

I had some great Prot runs back in the day with LR52 (L) + A105.

Maybe throwing an A105 or A106 on one of those new high level ArMax (L) guns would prove fruitful. Bit expensive at the moment though, as they're new L.

Rick

Yes, this is puzzling. As there certainly are more than 93 different theories, it's hard to see how just 93% could be enough to give each one of them adequate weight.

Haruto Rat said:

Yes, this is puzzling. As there certainly are more than 93 different theories, it's hard to see how just 93% could be enough to give each one of them adequate weight.

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Hmm I wasn't able to make sense of what your trying to say.

Haruto Rat said:

Yes, this is puzzling.

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What is puzzling?

Haruto Rat said:

As there certainly are more than 93 different theories,

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Theories on what? and what are some of these theories?

Haruto Rat said:

it's hard to see how just 93% could be enough to give each one of them adequate weight.

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What is them?

GeorgeSkywalker said:

In the recent developer notes #12 it was stated:


From this thread:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?298429-Developer-Notes-12-Loot-2-0-Follow-Up


So for the purposes of this discussion I'm going to ask you to ignore the Effiency parameter as it is now called completely and concentrate instead on the remaining 93% in loot value calculations. (100%-7% = 93%)

Specifically which hunting set ups are best to maximise loot value. The 93% of the loot value formula that takes into account costs, such as weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc.

That's going to be different for different mobs so I'm concentrating on Proteron as I prefer to hunt them.

So under loot 2.0 which sets ups are better than others to maximise loot on Proteron?

Click to expand...

The higher the Efficiency of the weapon the better the weapon deterioration and ammo consumption would be compared to a low efficiency weapon!

"The largest components by far in loot value calculations are costs, such as weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, etc."

I was hoping after this thread with your valuable input to come up with some generic maximum loot formula. I see it's going to be a bit more difficult than that.


Anyway my loot formula at moment looks like this:


George's maximum loot rating indicator = (lower weapon deterioration the better) x (lower ammo consumption the better) x (lower armour decay the better) x (lower healing costs the better) x (lower other costs the better) = the lower the figure the better the rating

hello all,

i cant answer, but i can understand what George asking.

The loot formula obviously is a function of weapon deterioration, ammo consumption, armor deterioration, healing costs, and something else.

The question is in which proportion? is if better use a weapon with big decay and low amno consumption or very low decay gun and big amno consumption? or hunt naked or with EST and run or tank the damage with a adegaute armor?

Edit: so for example: Max Loot= F(f1(armor decay); f2(amno cost), f3(armor cost); f4(heal cost); f4(..); ...)

which maximize Max loot? f1, f2, f3, f4 ?

My theory is that it is something like:

total_costs * (92+7*efficiency)% * multiplier



Since multipliers will eventually, on a large enough sample, converge to 1 and are there just to provide thrills and variation, it falls down to all (or at least most) costs being compensated equally, by a percent depending on your efficiency.

You hunt with a terrible (close to 0% efficiency) weapon, you should still get about 92% return rate which is much better than before.

You hunt with an average (60% efficiency) setup, you should get the about 96% (92 + 7*0.6 = 96.2) return rate which is probably in line or a bit better than before.

You hunt with a highly efficient weapon (close to 100% efficiency) setup, you should get about 99% (but not 100% or higher) return rate, which is definitely worse than before, but still enough to break even or profit via MU.



Sure, there may be certain things (like overkill or regen) not being compensated, but other than that I really think that's something as simple as that, so things like armor decay, healing, higher ammo use or higher weapon decay, etc, won't affect loot quantity, just later on, on the second pass the loot quality.

DoA said:

My theory is that it is something like:

total_costs * (92+7*efficiency)% * multiplier



Since multipliers will eventually, on a large enough sample, converge to 1 and are there just to provide thrills, it falls down to all (or at least most) costs being compensated equally, by a percent depending on your efficiency.

You hunt with a terrible (close to 0% efficiency) weapon, you should still get about 92% return rate which is much better than before.

You hunt with an average (60% efficiency) setup, you should get the about 96% (92 + 7*0.6 = 96.2) return rate which is probably in line or a bit better than before.

You hunt with a highly efficient weapon (close to 100% efficiency) setup, you should get about 99% (but not 100% or higher) return rate, which is definitely worse than before, but still enough to break even or profit via MU.



Sure, there may be certain things (like overkill or regen) not being compensated, but other than that I really think that's something as simple as that, so things like armor decay, healing, higher ammo use or higher weapon decay, etc, won't affect loot quantity, just later on, on the second pass the loot quality.

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try to understand what ppl says this is not the question: is it more important wepon decay cost or amno cost, or heal cost, or something else cost? Dont u think that top hunters know well how efficiency or dpp works?

Antrace said:

try to understand what ppl says this is not the question: is it more important wepon decay cost or amno cost, or heal cost, or something else cost? Dont u think that top hunters know well how efficiency or dpp works?

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Yeah, I think I made it extremely clear that in my theory they all carry the exact same importance...

Either you spend said money because of more ammo usage, heavier weapon decay, more enhancers broke, more amp decay, more armor decay, higher healing costs or whatever they all would add up to "total_costs" and have the multiplier applied to them.

So for loot quantity, it doesn't matter where your costs come from, just to how much they add to and what efficiency is applied to formula.



Now, sure, I may be wrong, just like anyone else may be wrong.

DoA said:

Yeah, I think I made it extremely clear that in my theory they all carry the exact same importance...

Either you spend said money because of more ammo usage, heavier weapon decay, more enhancers broke, more amp decay, more armor decay, higher healing costs or whatever they all would add up to "total_costs" and have the multiplier applied to them.

So for loot quantity, it doesn't matter where your costs come from, just to how much they add to and what efficiency is applied to formula.



Now, sure, I may be wrong, just like anyone else may be wrong.

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so, i try to sum up your though: doesn't matter where a cost come from, they are just costs.
max loot (the 93% of loot not influenced by economy) = F(total cost to kill)

it can be right but it can be wrong also, thats why only heavy hunters can answer the question, because they tested .

I'd suggest to have a baseline to compare
Like really big amount of individual kills tracked on some "easy-to-tank-naked" mob like puny with fixed setup like TT gun and relatively cheap kills

And/or at least try to define all possible parameters that may influence loot value that we can actually control

Antrace said:

so, i try to sum up your though: doesn't matter where a cost come from, they are just costs.
max loot (the 93% of loot not influenced by economy) = F(total cost to kill)

it can be right but it can be wrong also, thats why only heavy hunters can answer the question, because they tested .

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Exactly.

And reason why I say this is because what they seem to try to do is to make the whole process more transparent and more simple to grasp; it will be counterintuitive to simplify some things, just to complicate others... as in you have costs (easily visible), you have efficiency (which, while just a reading of the dpp, we just added to make it easier for everyone to see), but at the same time add/keep a hidden variable (like two weapons with same cost/dpp/efficiency being more efficient just because one has more/less decay and the other has more/less ammo consumption).

I think is quite obvious already that, at least in terms of loot quantity, they try to bridge the gap between uber and noober, between hardcore and casual, between min-maxer and blind shooter) so, in the end, they lower the cost to play for the average user. The uber, hardcore, math wiz player can sure continue to profit, but via MU (getting [better] items) since all (or at least most) of the min-max optimizations seems to have not been removed, but moved on loot quality instead.

I think the trend is obvious and common sense should really dictate us what to understand, but, as you said and as I said myself, I may be wrong and all I'm saying is just a theoretical model based on logic, common sense and information provided; we won't know for sure 'till the heavy grinders would come with some empirical evidence from a statistically relevant sample.

DoA said:

Exactly.

And reason why I say this is because what they seem to try to do is to make the whole process more transparent and more simple to grasp; it will be counterintuitive to simplify some things, just to complicate others... as in you have costs (easily visible), you have efficiency (which, while just a reading of the dpp, we just added to make it easier for everyone to see), but at the same time add/keep a hidden variable (like two weapons with same cost/dpp/efficiency being more efficient just because one has more/less decay and the other has more/less ammo consumption).

I think is quite obvious already that, at least in terms of loot quantity, they try to bridge the gap between uber and noober, between hardcore and casual, between min-maxer and blind shooter) so, in the end, they lower the cost to play for the average user. The uber, hardcore, math wiz player can sure continue to profit, but via MU (getting [better] items) since all (or at least most) of the min-max optimizations seems to have not been removed, but moved on loot quality instead.

I think the trend is obvious and common sense should really dictate us what to understand, but, as you said and as I said myself, I may be wrong and all I'm saying is just a theoretical model based on logic, common sense and information provided; we won't know for sure 'till the heavy grinders would come with some empirical evidence from a statistically relevant sample.

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DoA I don't want to be rude but where are you getting all of your theories ? Its not from experience because by you own admission you only sweat and never hunt. I really think the only way to test a theory is by experience not reading what other have said, you need to get out and test not just say I could be right or wrong. Then you can say I have tested my theory and with my small sample I think it works or does not work for me. That's the way to do it.

CozMoDan said:

DoA I don't want to be rude but where are you getting all of your theories ? Its not from experience because by you own admission you only sweat and never hunt. I really think the only way to test a theory is by experience not reading what other have said, you need to get out and test not just say I could be right or wrong. Then you can say I have tested my theory and with my small sample I think it works or does not work for me. That's the way to do it.

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I strongly disagree.

A theoretical model doesn't always require empirical evidence and even when it does it definitely doesn't have to be the same person doing the practical testing. Think about theoretical physicist and experimental physicist, or if you want to take it one step further architects and masons. If some people need palpable things / numbers to feel them as real, others are able to just see patterns and logical approaches at a theoretical level.

And, if I'm not mistaken, everything I said far now it was kinda confirmed by later, and to exemplify to a single post check this one that I made on 19th, before loot 2.0 kicked in.

DoA said:

My thoughts are pretty much in line with Fiona's thoughts... they try to close the gap between eco and uneco hunting (as in eco hunters will still get better loot than uneco hunters, but the difference will be [much] lower than it is today) and also to support the "lazy and/or not so smart" people (who can't be arsed to check external sites and compare exact DPPs, but could easily compare two eco rating if displayed in clear in game). So my guess is that the "eco rating" will be totally in line with the DPP, as in comparing any two weapons the one with better DPP would also have better eco, and this is just a way to make said metric more easily visible.

So:
- "lazy any not so smart" people will be spoon feed more info so they can be a bit less "not so smart"
- furthermore, the penalty for being "lazy and not so smart" will be lowered and the bonus for "min-maxing" would also be lowered, so all our results will fall somewhere closer to each other

TL;DR: If you're reading this, you'll most likely get slightly lower results, so the 98% "lazy and not so smart" who don't even bother to check Entropedia or forums can get slightly better results.

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As you can see, I said even back then that the loot 2.0 will be a Robin Hood update (closing gap between efficient and inefficient, between good and bad, between smart and dumb) and that efficiency will be nothing but a more easily understandable reading of DPP and that there will be a direct translation from one to the other.

I won't go further, but if you'll check all my other theories and ideas on this subject, you'll see that none was busted by later clarifications from MA; some were confirmed, some are still to be clarified, but none was busted (yet).

And, unlike Neverdie, I am *NOT* my avatar; DoA may be a noob with no skills and no PEDs, only hunting punnies, but that doesn't necessarily means that Alex is also an idiot and not able to think farther than punny levels. Although sure, you have all the right in the world to perceive me like that if that makes you happy.

Anyway, and that would be my last message on the topic. I had no benefits from sharing my theories with you and pointing out flaws in other people theories when I saw them. Actually, I just sacrificed my time doing so and if instead of gratitude I get criticism, then be it your way... I'm done with posting on the forums, at least on this subject and with trying to educate people that don't want to be educated. Instead, I will focus on my own gameplay and entertainment and be happier about it. Keep the whine going; sky is falling! *LOL*

There is a place for both, theory and practice, deduction and empirical testing. Both can get it right or wrong. On these cybervenues there is often an undercurrent of tying someone's right to speak to their perceived size.

CozMoDan said:

DoA I don't want to be rude but where are you getting all of your theories ? Its not from experience because by you own admission you only sweat and never hunt. I really think the only way to test a theory is by experience not reading what other have said, you need to get out and test not just say I could be right or wrong. Then you can say I have tested my theory and with my small sample I think it works or does not work for me. That's the way to do it.

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And then everyone will simply say well your sample size is not big enough. Go do another 3 iron missions on that mob... come back with more info, same will happen... bah go kill another million mob for a better sample size... what only 10 million sample size better go for 100 million...

Speaking from my own experience with 1 little foul global after loot 2.0 I will say u get back lots of shrapnel and oil, with oil dependent on loot table of mob... and some tier components from time to time... and weapons are out there as pre loot 2.0 but rare. My little global included a gun.

I actually like all the shrapnel since I can either convert to ammo or t.t. it if I need ped for repairs or auction buying. Ped would always be low otherwise since all recent deposits were via lockbox webshop purchases... Which all usually gets me about 60 to 90 percent back as universal ammo and rest as pills, nuerobiotic, fireworks or pets I already got... last 3 depo each included a kitty...

The deflect does seem to lower armor repair bill a lot... but not sure if that impacts loot u get back much.

Been messing around with mixing 1 pill, 1 Neuro and the speed buff from Harrier adjusted to see if it helps... it does increase cost per hour but not sure it does much else

DoA said:

Yeah, I think I made it extremely clear that in my theory they all carry the exact same importance...

Either you spend said money because of more ammo usage, heavier weapon decay, more enhancers broke, more amp decay, more armor decay, higher healing costs or whatever they all would add up to "total_costs" and have the multiplier applied to them.

So for loot quantity, it doesn't matter where your costs come from, just to how much they add to and what efficiency is applied to formula.



Now, sure, I may be wrong, just like anyone else may be wrong.

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I think that this is pretty much true from my point of view, it is an elegant theory when you actually think about it. I mean, DPP is exactly that (Damage / Cost). I don't think there is really precedence between decay and ammo use (partly *proven* by ELM weapons). It is just added together in a bunch as cost. As shrapnel appeared you will be about 1% better off in using ammo heavy weapons compared to decay heavy weapons, that's all.

I am not actually sure that armor decay, fap decay and enhancers are included tho, that would be too much of a variant compared to invariant DPP... And why I think this is true is, how do you track for example healing when fighting 2+ mobs, how would the system decide how much fap decay would apply to each mob loot... Armor might be easier tho, but still, it introduces chaos and variance to a quite stable equation, which isn't the way MA would tend to operate imho. Enhancers already apply costs to the items using them (more damage = more decay/ammo use) so that part is included in the cost the same way an amplifier would be, however, i do not think that enhancer TT cost is included. I think that Healing costs, Armor costs and Enhancer loss costs are not included in the "Cost" in formula.


So yeah, my bets are on Cost * (93 base return + 7 * Weapon Efficiency) * Loot multiplyer as DoA suggested.

Antrace said:

it can be right but it can be wrong also, thats why only heavy hunters can answer the question, because they tested .

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Or heavy hunter just repeats what worked for him last times, and still have no clue how it works, but who cares if it works its good

Phoenix said:

CCost * (93 base return + 7 * Weapon Efficiency) * Loot multiplyer as DoA suggested.

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this formula is wrong (in my opinion) , because i'm pretty sure that lower cost to kill = lower single loot, (but better return overall). And if i read this formula i can't see this proportionality.

Hello, I had a nice conversation in-game. Merely spreading the word, hopefully we can all figure out how the loot 2.0 works and make a nice gain in our avg TT returns. The person in question wanted to be anonymous.
Major points we can take from this:

1. Check loot, if you're getting too much shrapnel, your setup is not fit for "optimal loot".
2. Ultra eco doesn't equal ultra optimal anymore.
3. Matching DPS to mob maturity for your level is key to getting optimal loot.
4. Regen plays a role in optimal loot calculation. More dps + perfect finisher may be key.
5. Overkill lessens the "optimal loot factor".
6. Following all of the above > dpp. So using more dps for less DPP is more important nowadays. If you want to hunt bigger stuff.

Sub-Zero said:

Hello, I had a nice conversation in-game. Merely spreading the word, hopefully we can all figure out how the loot 2.0 works and make a nice gain in our avg TT returns. The person in question wanted to be anonymous.

Code:

2017-06-29 19:31:14 [TO  : Anonymous] hi
2017-06-29 19:31:19 [FROM: Anonymous] Hello
2017-06-29 19:32:58 [TO  : Anonymous] What are ya planning to help boost the violatile loot returns? People getting 50% returns on mobs they got 95%+ before loot 2.0?
2017-06-29 19:33:33 [TO  : Anonymous] are we forced to hunt smaller mobs with less hp to get "optimal loot"?
2017-06-29 19:33:41 [FROM: Anonymous] The adjustment has to come on your side.  IF the loot is that bad, your setup is not good for that mob
2017-06-29 19:33:58 [FROM: Anonymous] Optimal Loot is the idea, that is what will dirve your profit
2017-06-29 19:35:03 [TO  : Anonymous] I use maxed weapon, I don't fap while shooting, I don't use big armor, my defense cost is less than 1%. My dps and dpp is more than fine
2017-06-29 19:35:27 [TO  : Anonymous] just that for some reason it almost feel like If I don't kill mob too fast like below 20s I get penalty
2017-06-29 19:35:30 [FROM: Anonymous] What weapon, whats the efficiency rating on it
2017-06-29 19:36:13 [TO  : Anonymous] [Aakas Fire Dagger] + [Melee Trauma Amplifier IV] btw I use tagger to get 1 mob at a time
2017-06-29 19:36:30 [FROM: Anonymous] whats the efficiency rating
2017-06-29 19:36:36 [TO  : Anonymous] 62.7% with amp
2017-06-29 19:37:02 [FROM: Anonymous] well, thats pretty good.
2017-06-29 19:37:09 [TO  : Anonymous] yes
2017-06-29 19:37:20 [TO  : Anonymous] + [Ares Ring Improved]
2017-06-29 19:37:23 [FROM: Anonymous] My suggestion would be try a little higher mob, and a little lower, and see what is consistent for you
2017-06-29 19:37:25 [TO  : Anonymous] so maybe a bit above avg
2017-06-29 19:38:06 [TO  : Anonymous] I see
2017-06-29 19:38:12 [TO  : Anonymous] so i need to adapt like that
2017-06-29 19:38:36 [FROM: Anonymous] Yes, go up a little, try that out, if that doesn't work, down a little, but I beet you need to move up a little
2017-06-29 19:38:43 [TO  : Anonymous] can u confirm though, if it could be because that I use tagger (one shot) then  wait for mob to reach me to then kill it with melee? COuld this be
2017-06-29 19:38:46 [FROM: Anonymous] It is indeed the need to adapt
2017-06-29 19:38:47 [TO  : Anonymous] because of not optimal loot?
2017-06-29 19:38:56 [FROM: Anonymous] you got a good setup, so just find the right mix
2017-06-29 19:39:16 [FROM: Anonymous] No, its not the use of a tagger and melee.. its all good
2017-06-29 19:39:29 [FROM: Anonymous] Your setup is OK, just change the level your are hitting mobs at..
2017-06-29 19:39:32 [TO  : Anonymous] ok i was a bit worried that once u shoot a mob, the "timer" would start
2017-06-29 19:39:40 [FROM: Anonymous] No, there is no timer.
2017-06-29 19:39:52 [FROM: Anonymous] That was stated in the Loot 2.0 followup
2017-06-29 19:39:56 [TO  : Anonymous] yea
2017-06-29 19:40:04 [FROM: Anonymous] Its just simply a matter of math.
2017-06-29 19:40:10 [FROM: Anonymous] I will give you an example
2017-06-29 19:40:31 [FROM: Anonymous] I know a player using a Mod Merc, and an Improved a-105
2017-06-29 19:40:49 [FROM: Anonymous] Hunting Togolossi on Arkadia.  Loot was terrible, its a big HP mob
2017-06-29 19:41:08 [FROM: Anonymous] I suggested to add 3 damage enhancers to the gun, I, II, III to get a little more punch.
2017-06-29 19:41:13 [TO  : Anonymous] the high maturity then?
2017-06-29 19:41:31 [FROM: Anonymous] and boom, that was the right combination to get more punch to get improved loot
2017-06-29 19:41:49 [TO  : Anonymous] how can you give such specifc advice :P
2017-06-29 19:41:53 [FROM: Anonymous] You either have to go higher or lower to find the right damage spot to get the better loot
2017-06-29 19:41:55 [TO  : Anonymous] aren't you like hurting yourselves?
2017-06-29 19:42:20 [FROM: Anonymous] if you are seeing mostly shrapnel, you are not at the right spot
2017-06-29 19:42:32 [FROM: Anonymous] No, of course not.  If people aren't able to play, we all lose
2017-06-29 19:42:47 [TO  : Anonymous] that's quite brilliant then, and logical from that explanation
2017-06-29 19:42:54 [FROM: Anonymous] I am just giving you the example to help you adapt to the new way of thinking
2017-06-29 19:43:03 [TO  : Anonymous] so if shrapnel is the majority of loot = not optimal loot?
2017-06-29 19:43:04 [FROM: Anonymous] I am glad.
2017-06-29 19:43:10 [FROM: Anonymous] Thats correct.
2017-06-29 19:43:18 [TO  : Anonymous] lol shrapnel like 80% of my loot xD
2017-06-29 19:43:27 [FROM: Anonymous] you should see a second shrapnel line every so often, that is from the bonus pool
2017-06-29 19:43:38 [FROM: Anonymous] but on top of that, you will get a mix of items.
2017-06-29 19:43:44 [FROM: Anonymous] oils, paints, etc
2017-06-29 19:43:57 [TO  : Anonymous] that bonus shrapnel loot is usually 20+ ped?
2017-06-29 19:44:00 [TO  : Anonymous] i've noticed that
2017-06-29 19:44:04 [FROM: Anonymous] if you aren't  getting a mix, you are at the wrong spot on the damage to Mob ladder
2017-06-29 19:44:28 [FROM: Anonymous] it can be any amount, but I have seen it be 12ped, 20 ped, more...  sometimes it even gives a global for the bonus
2017-06-29 19:44:35 [FROM: Anonymous] Its all about finding that sweet spot now
2017-06-29 19:44:39 [TO  : Anonymous] I see
2017-06-29 19:44:58 [FROM: Anonymous] Its really not that difficult if you get a feel for what to watch for
2017-06-29 19:44:58 [TO  : Anonymous] Regen matters more now? Because in the past it compensated by higher avg loot I think
2017-06-29 19:45:09 [FROM: Anonymous] but be patient, you have to test out enough to get it right
2017-06-29 19:45:33 [FROM: Anonymous] I don't think Regen really matters any more than before
2017-06-29 19:45:37 [TO  : Anonymous] im guessing now regen doesn't compensate at all?
2017-06-29 19:45:48 [TO  : Anonymous] so more dps is key?
2017-06-29 19:45:54 [FROM: Anonymous] It think it factors into the damage calc, so I think it would
2017-06-29 19:46:02 [TO  : Anonymous] or is it possible that you can have too much dps for a mob?
2017-06-29 19:46:08 [FROM: Anonymous] dps for the mob, and maturity that you are hunting
2017-06-29 19:46:10 [TO  : Anonymous] thus not achieving optimal loot
2017-06-29 19:46:21 [FROM: Anonymous] Yes, overkill reduces your loot from optimal as well
2017-06-29 19:46:29 [FROM: Anonymous] thats why I suggested you go a little higher
2017-06-29 19:46:32 [TO  : Anonymous] i see
2017-06-29 19:46:37 [FROM: Anonymous] You should have to fap once in a while..
2017-06-29 19:46:41 [FROM: Anonymous] or you are going to easy
2017-06-29 19:46:47 [TO  : Anonymous] heheh this is really tough
2017-06-29 19:46:55 [TO  : Anonymous] I've always gone eco route
2017-06-29 19:46:57 [FROM: Anonymous] It is..  at first
2017-06-29 19:47:01 [TO  : Anonymous] since 2006
2017-06-29 19:47:01 [FROM: Anonymous] Yes...
2017-06-29 19:47:06 [TO  : Anonymous] and that means no FAPPING almost
2017-06-29 19:47:08 [TO  : Anonymous] xD
2017-06-29 19:47:11 [FROM: Anonymous] the ultra eco way has been the path forever
2017-06-29 19:47:12 [TO  : Anonymous] and minimal armor
2017-06-29 19:47:19 [FROM: Anonymous] NOW that can be a detriment
2017-06-29 19:47:27 [TO  : Anonymous] so now you guys bridging the gap?
2017-06-29 19:47:58 [FROM: Anonymous] Its all in an effort to reduce the cost to play, and retain more players.
2017-06-29 19:48:05 [FROM: Anonymous] More players means better economy
2017-06-29 19:48:12 [TO  : Anonymous] always thought that as well
2017-06-29 19:48:16 [FROM: Anonymous] Better economy means more loot, and the circle continues
2017-06-29 19:48:29 [TO  : Anonymous] it's a lot better if 10000 players pay with 20 bucks a month then 1000 play with 50 bucks or more
2017-06-29 19:48:35 [FROM: Anonymous] Its a very positive change if people can adapt
2017-06-29 19:48:43 [FROM: Anonymous] absolutely
2017-06-29 19:48:49 [TO  : Anonymous] 500 bucks*
2017-06-29 19:48:58 [FROM: Anonymous] spot on with that analogy
2017-06-29 19:49:26 [FROM: Anonymous] we are going to see the economy rev up again, and when the population numbers go up, its all relative

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wow this made more sense than all the theories and hundreds of posts and threads people pulling their hair loosing their minds and all the sale threads....Thank you to who ever it was that you spoke to for simplifying it...Maybe this is the reason i saw some god mode sales going on? as that shit is not viable any more so offload it to some poor sod with a lame excuse....

Antrace said:

Dont u think that top hunters know well how efficiency or dpp works?

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No. None. Nada. Zip.

Money in your RL bank account has time and time again proven to have very little effect on your understanding of how entropia works.

By this I don't mean that the "top hunters" of today don't know how to be efficient. But you can't simply tally someone's total loot and make assumptions about their profit or loss. They might be in the lead or they might just as well be close to a divorce. The latter is sadly not too uncommon in my experience.

I would tend to agree with Mr Anonymous.

Having the right dps on hp mob is best tip.

Very Interesting

Sub-Zero said:

Hello, I had a nice conversation in-game. Merely spreading the word, hopefully we can all figure out how the loot 2.0 works and make a nice gain in our avg TT returns. The person in question wanted to be anonymous.

Code:

2017-06-29 19:31:14 [TO  : Anonymous] hi
2017-06-29 19:31:19 [FROM: Anonymous] Hello
2017-06-29 19:32:58 [TO  : Anonymous] What are ya planning to help boost the violatile loot returns? People getting 50% returns on mobs they got 95%+ before loot 2.0?
2017-06-29 19:33:33 [TO  : Anonymous] are we forced to hunt smaller mobs with less hp to get "optimal loot"?
2017-06-29 19:33:41 [FROM: Anonymous] The adjustment has to come on your side.  IF the loot is that bad, your setup is not good for that mob
2017-06-29 19:33:58 [FROM: Anonymous] Optimal Loot is the idea, that is what will dirve your profit
2017-06-29 19:35:03 [TO  : Anonymous] I use maxed weapon, I don't fap while shooting, I don't use big armor, my defense cost is less than 1%. My dps and dpp is more than fine
2017-06-29 19:35:27 [TO  : Anonymous] just that for some reason it almost feel like If I don't kill mob too fast like below 20s I get penalty
2017-06-29 19:35:30 [FROM: Anonymous] What weapon, whats the efficiency rating on it
2017-06-29 19:36:13 [TO  : Anonymous] [Aakas Fire Dagger] + [Melee Trauma Amplifier IV] btw I use tagger to get 1 mob at a time
2017-06-29 19:36:30 [FROM: Anonymous] whats the efficiency rating
2017-06-29 19:36:36 [TO  : Anonymous] 62.7% with amp
2017-06-29 19:37:02 [FROM: Anonymous] well, thats pretty good.
2017-06-29 19:37:09 [TO  : Anonymous] yes
2017-06-29 19:37:20 [TO  : Anonymous] + [Ares Ring Improved]
2017-06-29 19:37:23 [FROM: Anonymous] My suggestion would be try a little higher mob, and a little lower, and see what is consistent for you
2017-06-29 19:37:25 [TO  : Anonymous] so maybe a bit above avg
2017-06-29 19:38:06 [TO  : Anonymous] I see
2017-06-29 19:38:12 [TO  : Anonymous] so i need to adapt like that
2017-06-29 19:38:36 [FROM: Anonymous] Yes, go up a little, try that out, if that doesn't work, down a little, but I beet you need to move up a little
2017-06-29 19:38:43 [TO  : Anonymous] can u confirm though, if it could be because that I use tagger (one shot) then  wait for mob to reach me to then kill it with melee? COuld this be
2017-06-29 19:38:46 [FROM: Anonymous] It is indeed the need to adapt
2017-06-29 19:38:47 [TO  : Anonymous] because of not optimal loot?
2017-06-29 19:38:56 [FROM: Anonymous] you got a good setup, so just find the right mix
2017-06-29 19:39:16 [FROM: Anonymous] No, its not the use of a tagger and melee.. its all good
2017-06-29 19:39:29 [FROM: Anonymous] Your setup is OK, just change the level your are hitting mobs at..
2017-06-29 19:39:32 [TO  : Anonymous] ok i was a bit worried that once u shoot a mob, the "timer" would start
2017-06-29 19:39:40 [FROM: Anonymous] No, there is no timer.
2017-06-29 19:39:52 [FROM: Anonymous] That was stated in the Loot 2.0 followup
2017-06-29 19:39:56 [TO  : Anonymous] yea
2017-06-29 19:40:04 [FROM: Anonymous] Its just simply a matter of math.
2017-06-29 19:40:10 [FROM: Anonymous] I will give you an example
2017-06-29 19:40:31 [FROM: Anonymous] I know a player using a Mod Merc, and an Improved a-105
2017-06-29 19:40:49 [FROM: Anonymous] Hunting Togolossi on Arkadia.  Loot was terrible, its a big HP mob
2017-06-29 19:41:08 [FROM: Anonymous] I suggested to add 3 damage enhancers to the gun, I, II, III to get a little more punch.
2017-06-29 19:41:13 [TO  : Anonymous] the high maturity then?
2017-06-29 19:41:31 [FROM: Anonymous] and boom, that was the right combination to get more punch to get improved loot
2017-06-29 19:41:49 [TO  : Anonymous] how can you give such specifc advice :P
2017-06-29 19:41:53 [FROM: Anonymous] You either have to go higher or lower to find the right damage spot to get the better loot
2017-06-29 19:41:55 [TO  : Anonymous] aren't you like hurting yourselves?
2017-06-29 19:42:20 [FROM: Anonymous] if you are seeing mostly shrapnel, you are not at the right spot
2017-06-29 19:42:32 [FROM: Anonymous] No, of course not.  If people aren't able to play, we all lose
2017-06-29 19:42:47 [TO  : Anonymous] that's quite brilliant then, and logical from that explanation
2017-06-29 19:42:54 [FROM: Anonymous] I am just giving you the example to help you adapt to the new way of thinking
2017-06-29 19:43:03 [TO  : Anonymous] so if shrapnel is the majority of loot = not optimal loot?
2017-06-29 19:43:04 [FROM: Anonymous] I am glad.
2017-06-29 19:43:10 [FROM: Anonymous] Thats correct.
2017-06-29 19:43:18 [TO  : Anonymous] lol shrapnel like 80% of my loot xD
2017-06-29 19:43:27 [FROM: Anonymous] you should see a second shrapnel line every so often, that is from the bonus pool
2017-06-29 19:43:38 [FROM: Anonymous] but on top of that, you will get a mix of items.
2017-06-29 19:43:44 [FROM: Anonymous] oils, paints, etc
2017-06-29 19:43:57 [TO  : Anonymous] that bonus shrapnel loot is usually 20+ ped?
2017-06-29 19:44:00 [TO  : Anonymous] i've noticed that
2017-06-29 19:44:04 [FROM: Anonymous] if you aren't  getting a mix, you are at the wrong spot on the damage to Mob ladder
2017-06-29 19:44:28 [FROM: Anonymous] it can be any amount, but I have seen it be 12ped, 20 ped, more...  sometimes it even gives a global for the bonus
2017-06-29 19:44:35 [FROM: Anonymous] Its all about finding that sweet spot now
2017-06-29 19:44:39 [TO  : Anonymous] I see
2017-06-29 19:44:58 [FROM: Anonymous] Its really not that difficult if you get a feel for what to watch for
2017-06-29 19:44:58 [TO  : Anonymous] Regen matters more now? Because in the past it compensated by higher avg loot I think
2017-06-29 19:45:09 [FROM: Anonymous] but be patient, you have to test out enough to get it right
2017-06-29 19:45:33 [FROM: Anonymous] I don't think Regen really matters any more than before
2017-06-29 19:45:37 [TO  : Anonymous] im guessing now regen doesn't compensate at all?
2017-06-29 19:45:48 [TO  : Anonymous] so more dps is key?
2017-06-29 19:45:54 [FROM: Anonymous] It think it factors into the damage calc, so I think it would
2017-06-29 19:46:02 [TO  : Anonymous] or is it possible that you can have too much dps for a mob?
2017-06-29 19:46:08 [FROM: Anonymous] dps for the mob, and maturity that you are hunting
2017-06-29 19:46:10 [TO  : Anonymous] thus not achieving optimal loot
2017-06-29 19:46:21 [FROM: Anonymous] Yes, overkill reduces your loot from optimal as well
2017-06-29 19:46:29 [FROM: Anonymous] thats why I suggested you go a little higher
2017-06-29 19:46:32 [TO  : Anonymous] i see
2017-06-29 19:46:37 [FROM: Anonymous] You should have to fap once in a while..
2017-06-29 19:46:41 [FROM: Anonymous] or you are going to easy
2017-06-29 19:46:47 [TO  : Anonymous] heheh this is really tough
2017-06-29 19:46:55 [TO  : Anonymous] I've always gone eco route
2017-06-29 19:46:57 [FROM: Anonymous] It is..  at first
2017-06-29 19:47:01 [TO  : Anonymous] since 2006
2017-06-29 19:47:01 [FROM: Anonymous] Yes...
2017-06-29 19:47:06 [TO  : Anonymous] and that means no FAPPING almost
2017-06-29 19:47:08 [TO  : Anonymous] xD
2017-06-29 19:47:11 [FROM: Anonymous] the ultra eco way has been the path forever
2017-06-29 19:47:12 [TO  : Anonymous] and minimal armor
2017-06-29 19:47:19 [FROM: Anonymous] NOW that can be a detriment
2017-06-29 19:47:27 [TO  : Anonymous] so now you guys bridging the gap?
2017-06-29 19:47:58 [FROM: Anonymous] Its all in an effort to reduce the cost to play, and retain more players.
2017-06-29 19:48:05 [FROM: Anonymous] More players means better economy
2017-06-29 19:48:12 [TO  : Anonymous] always thought that as well
2017-06-29 19:48:16 [FROM: Anonymous] Better economy means more loot, and the circle continues
2017-06-29 19:48:29 [TO  : Anonymous] it's a lot better if 10000 players pay with 20 bucks a month then 1000 play with 50 bucks or more
2017-06-29 19:48:35 [FROM: Anonymous] Its a very positive change if people can adapt
2017-06-29 19:48:43 [FROM: Anonymous] absolutely
2017-06-29 19:48:49 [TO  : Anonymous] 500 bucks*
2017-06-29 19:48:58 [FROM: Anonymous] spot on with that analogy
2017-06-29 19:49:26 [FROM: Anonymous] we are going to see the economy rev up again, and when the population numbers go up, its all relative

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Good explanation, and makes a lot of sense...

GeorgeSkywalker said:

So for the purposes of this discussion I'm going to ask you to ignore the Effiency parameter as it is now called completely and concentrate instead on the remaining 93% in loot value calculations. (100%-7% = 93%)

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It could just mean that DPP isn't 100 % effective. For example:

Classic DPP theory dictates that there is some mean value used to determine how much loot any mob will give. We'll assume this mean to be 3 DPP.

According to this rule if you kill a mob using 2.8 DPP you would be getting 93.3 % TT return. But if you instead used a 3.2 DPP weapon you would get 106.7 % TT return.

But we all know this classic example isn't how it actually works. The usual understanding is that "the system compensates" for discrepancies in DPP between players, i.e. a player using a 3.2 DPP gun will get less loot from the same mob than the 2.8 DPP player does.

Herein lies the debate that has pretty much been going on since 2003: Does the compensation to the 2.8 DPP player actually make up for the entire discrepancy or not? Or is DPP so entirely useless for determining success, because loot is 100 % adjusted according to your actual cost of killing, making loot rather a function of something else entirely? By those who adhere to the latter following - decay is usually quoted as very important (some say good some say bad). (Which is all Marcos fault by the way.)


Enter: recent developer note #12.

By this statement it would seem that the system does compensate for DPP discrepancies, but not 100 %. Meaning that instead of 3.2 DPP being 14 % more efficient than 2.8 DPP (3.2/2.8), it is actually only 1 % more efficient. ((3,2/2,8)-1)*(7/100) It is rather late, though, so perhaps my math is off.

Sub-Zero said:

Hello, I had a nice conversation in-game. Merely spreading the word, hopefully we can all figure out how the loot 2.0 works and make a nice gain in our avg TT returns. The person in question wanted to be anonymous.

Code:

Major points we can take from this:

1. Check loot, if you're getting too much shrapnel, your setup is not fit for "optimal loot".
2. Ultra eco doesn't equal ultra optimal anymore.
3. Matching DPS to mob maturity for your level is key to getting optimal loot.
4. Regen plays a role in optimal loot calculation. More dps + perfect finisher may be key.
5. Overkill lessens the "optimal loot factor".
6. Following all of the above > dpp. So using more dps for less DPP is more important nowadays. If you want to hunt bigger stuff.

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That is super interesting.

Well I did not read all of the posts. I stopped with DoA's first statement.

"A theoretical model doesn't always require empirical evidence and even when it does it definitely doesn't have to be the same person doing the practical testing"

Very true and it will always remain a theory so IMO has no value. To me you are basically saying its a good theory and should work with absolutely no proof.

First and most important is this is a game and not subject to the laws of nature but by men which means that they can change any laws at any time thereby making any theories null.

Second and most important is there is randomness in the loot calculations as MA has stated before with a slant dependent on other factors. MA stated that it cannot be totally random because of the laws but the randomness still applies.

You can predict the actual odds of an event like the odds of 12 being thrown by a pair of dice is 1 in 36 period and no matter how many times the dice are thrown that will never change. Unless there is a random "Something" that comes up from time to time but one does not know when, how many times or what exactly it does so there is not way to figure odds unless everything is the same every time.

I just think we all agree that the only way to know what works for you is by your own testing not what others say. I think that saying "This is what worked for me" is much better than regurgitating what other have said and making up your own theory.

Sub-Zero said:

Hello, I had a nice conversation in-game. Merely spreading the word, hopefully we can all figure out how the loot 2.0 works and make a nice gain in our avg TT returns. The person in question wanted to be anonymous.snip...
Major points we can take from this:

1. Check loot, if you're getting too much shrapnel, your setup is not fit for "optimal loot".
2. Ultra eco doesn't equal ultra optimal anymore.
3. Matching DPS to mob maturity for your level is key to getting optimal loot.
4. Regen plays a role in optimal loot calculation. More dps + perfect finisher may be key.
5. Overkill lessens the "optimal loot factor".
6. Following all of the above > dpp. So using more dps for less DPP is more important nowadays. If you want to hunt bigger stuff.

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Sorry but... then why be anonymous... It's hard to take this without a metric ton of salt when it suggest intangible concepts of this magnitude, is anonymous while claiming the information is for the good of all....