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FYI: Cerb Hulk Beris - Hunting log

wizz said:
go hunt some kerbs.

muscle oil now goes way over 105%.
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So that's 5% markup on, what, 20% of the loot? Should make up 1% of the 5% needed to break even, as long as you can avoid auction fees as well by selling direct to a player at that price (which I bet you can't). Where is the other 4% coming from?

And what do you think would happen to muscle oil markup if the likes of Hulk, who cycle several k PEDs every day hunting, start hunting Kerberos all the time?

PS People talking about Communism/Marxism/Capitalism when you clearly have no idea whatsoever what those terms actually mean, please stop it.
 
ZPF said:
High level players with the best equipment should profit via markup.

NOT by having a monopoly on TT profit at the expense of the rest of the universe... 95% TT return across the board is fine, so long as there is high markup available for the players that are more invested in the game.

Instead of fighting over scraps we should give MA some ideas on how to improve the economy/crafting/etc.
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Well MA explained well in the release notes, the decay and the cost of kill will play a important role into return. the efficiency will help you get MU , you will see the MU will go up . Oil , components, hides, weapons , chips etc, slowly the MU will raise , ofc not in 1 month , now who have ped to stack they should do it. MA started to drop UL gear again, we all asked for it , they dropped in the last month more than they dropped in the whole year, there is MU ( jaguar, shadow , paradox , chronicle parts , atack chips , etc) it's just that the era of being super eco is gone ,
 
JohnCapital said:
I'll just keep repeating myself and posting proof.
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Useless.

There wasnt enough data to show trending and the data posted was misleading through omission. Please stop.

Either do data analysis correctly or dont do it at all.
 
ZPF said:
High level players with the best equipment should profit via markup.

NOT by having a monopoly on TT profit at the expense of the rest of the universe... 95% TT return across the board is fine, so long as there is high markup available for the players that are more invested in the game.

Instead of fighting over scraps we should give MA some ideas on how to improve the economy/crafting/etc.
Click to expand...

Yes correct. 100%
 
Oleg said:
So that's 5% markup on, what, 20% of the loot? Should make up 1% of the 5% needed to break even, as long as you can avoid auction fees as well by selling direct to a player at that price (which I bet you can't). Where is the other 4% coming from?

And what do you think would happen to muscle oil markup if the likes of Hulk, who cycle several k PEDs every day hunting, start hunting Kerberos all the time?

PS People talking about Communism/Marxism/Capitalism when you clearly have no idea whatsoever what those terms actually mean, please stop it.
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This is my thoughts exactly. A few years ago I'd agreed with everyone saying that the profit should come from MU but the last years they have removed markup so it's not possible to gain over 5% average anymore. I can't think of a single mob that yield that atm. And you are right, if only 2-3 of those that hunt for 10k ped + a day would go on one of the "MU profit mobs" they would kill whatever markup there is in matter of hours. This is a complex problem that MA needs to solve by balancing nothing we can do. Make crafters craft other than TT materials would be a start and make hunters/miners need crafted items again..

Marxism is what we got here. One of his slogans was "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". If that isn't communism (or loot 2.0) idkn what is.. When you go out there with whatever skills you have and whatever equipment you want and get 95% back and paying 5% of whatever you hunt for that is prime example. In my book it makes more sense to pay less as you have skilled up/gotten better gear not using a communist system where everyone paying according to their ability (just to use words from his quote).

One player hunts for 10000ped a day and pays 500ped to MA. Another hunter hunts only for 100ped and he pays 5 ped to MA. Both are paying according to their ability and they get the same from ma :D What did I miss?
 
Ludvig confirmed that MA has plans to "reinvigorate the crafting profession". Before we take out the pitchforks why not wait and see how things unfold? As silly as it sounds, now is the time we should be encouraging MA and communicating (productively) as much as possible.

No ELM gun shower this year was a smart move. Hopefully more good things to come.

It may "seem" like some twisted anti-capitalist revolution right now, but we've yet to see the full picture of MA's plans (one should hope).
 
Amue said:
Stop beeing jealous of the income of ubers in the last months!!!!
Its a fact that if u cant constantly profit with gear that have 3,63 eco than the game will die!!

Most of the people play the game to have a chance to profit. Its RCE. There are so much more mmorpgs which are better than entropia. Why grinding/playing for hours when u loose real money and dont have a chance to get it back?

If equip and skills doesnt have a big influence than entropia will get a problem.

But yes, we will need more logs and time to see if its realy so bad or only just now.

So sad that most people are so jealous and not objective :(
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Read through and got to here where I want to comment. Agree completely with this post. I have terrible gear and am not Uber gonna be awhile but I chase that carrot on a stick constantly. It's why I log in. I log in to get skills and hopefully profit. My hopes is that one day my skills will make me Uber and I can then profit more. I was excited that my first year I did withdraw and I expect to do it again. :D

To keep it simple.

Now I do agree with some post and Yes all levels of players should be able to profit. The new players can't all lose ped just to give to the higher levels. There should be players winning and losing at all levels.

With that said though. The Elite of the Elite of every Profession I mean the tops should be profiting every year and withdrawing PED. Period! No and ifs or butts about it. That is the point of the game. It not a debate if you disagree you are just wrong and need to change your perspective.

I don't mean just profit from MU either. They should have over TT in Profit and be making sizable 50k-100k PED withdraws every year. I mean that is only 5k-10K USD. If someone dedicates the hours and effort of the Elite. Shouldn't they be able to make a living off Entropia. I think so! Which means 5k-10k USD isn't enough. Although I would be happy with it. :cool:

End of the day the game is about skilling and making money. Yes many more will lose then win at ALL levels. Even Ubers do lose. However what is the point of playing if you can't make big awesome withdraws from a good year? It is an RCE plain and simple.
 
minim said:
One player hunts for 10000ped a day and pays 500ped to MA. Another hunter hunts only for 100ped and he pays 5 ped to MA. Both are paying according to their ability and they get the same from ma :D What did I miss?
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The player hunting for 10000ped a day can get much higher globals, hofs and maybe even ATH. very unlikely for the 100ped player. Also the 10k pedder gets more and better items and also higher chance of rare items. He has also a wider range of mobs to chose from. He is not forced to hunt for that much each day, the 100ped player hasnt much options left and can only hunt very few mobs.
So overall, the 100ped player got way less content than the 10k player.
 
minim said:
... What did I miss?
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the mu% coming back, which is going to take time. I think you have been here a longer time than me? We both know high mu% has worked in the past, and that most high turnover players made their ped on HOFs, mu% and item loots..

We have years of extensive hunting logs we can look through from years and era's past...
 
atomicstorm said:
Useless.

There wasnt enough data to show trending and the data posted was misleading through omission. Please stop.
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You misunderstand.

I am not expressing my personal opinion of the data, good or bad, or what it may or may not mean.

I'm simply saying that I've read these same arguments for years now.
 
JohnCapital said:
You misunderstand.

I am not expressing my personal opinion of the data, good or bad, or what it may or may not mean.

I'm simply saying that I've read these same arguments for years now.
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Got you.. i stand corrected. Ill put the sword away. :)
 
Carn said:
The player hunting for 10000ped a day can get much higher globals, hofs and maybe even ATH. very unlikely for the 100ped player. Also the 10k pedder gets more and better items and also higher chance of rare items. He has also a wider range of mobs to chose from. He is not forced to hunt for that much each day, the 100ped player hasnt much options left and can only hunt very few mobs.
So overall, the 100ped player got way less content than the 10k player.
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I've done 10-15k ped turnover/day for longer periods. Trust me, even if it looks like it swirls all the time and that it must be profit, the cost is crazy. Now with the awesome 5% TT loss it's not possible to do it even.. The 100ped player can have just as much fun and do other stuff that doesn't require that much money. You don't have to spend 10k to have fun in entropia for a day and you can have just as much fun for 100ped as for 10k ped. The amount of content provided by MA is the same but that 10k guy paid way more for it. No matter how you turn it that's how it is.

Stefan 008 Bond said:
the mu% coming back, which is going to take time. I think you have been here a longer time than me? We both know high mu% has worked in the past, and that most high turnover players made their ped on HOFs, mu% and item loots..

We have years of extensive hunting logs we can look through from years and era's past...
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I really don't see it comming. Mindarks direction has been clear the last two years. They want to kill whatever MU that is left and take it all to themselves. This last loot 2.0 is another step in that direction imo. They let people buy regen chips, armor upgrades, rings +++ converting TT into lower TT and Mindark taking all the "markup" for themselves instead of dumping stuff like this in loot like in the past. Whatever new cool stuff they invent now they just pocket it themself instead of giving the markup to the end users.

If someone told me the markup story 4-5 years ago I would agreed with them. TT profit wasn't the way to go but when they remove all markup they need to make it possible to profit in some way. If they make it 95% again we need more markup to survive but they seem to want to pocket that so then we are left with nobody winning. How long will that last when there is no goal in the end?
 
ZPF said:
High level players with the best equipment should profit via markup.

NOT by having a monopoly on TT profit at the expense of the rest of the universe... 95% TT return across the board is fine, so long as there is high markup available for the players that are more invested in the game.

Instead of fighting over scraps we should give MA some ideas on how to improve the economy/crafting/etc.
Click to expand...

Ofc. What we got instead is a set of 3-5 mobs that fit our gear, for optimal oils... it's like when we draw for secret Santa, who to buy gift for, at work: who did you get? joplin dragon, esto and some oratan dude. what oils you ask? kidney, pancreas and adrenal, 100,000001%. See ya next Christmas then :laugh:
 
minim said:
I really don't see it comming. Mindarks direction has been clear the last two years. They want to kill whatever MU that is left and take it all to themselves. This last loot 2.0 is another step in that direction imo. They let people buy regen chips, armor upgrades, rings +++ converting TT into lower TT and Mindark taking all the "markup" for themselves instead of dumping stuff like this in loot like in the past. Whatever new cool stuff they invent now they just pocket it themself instead of giving the markup to the end users.

If someone told me the markup story 4-5 years ago I would agreed with them. TT profit wasn't the way to go but when they remove all markup they need to make it possible to profit in some way. If they make it 95% again we need more markup to survive but they seem to want to pocket that so then we are left with nobody winning. How long will that last when there is no goal in the end?
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Im in total agreement about MA's direction the last 2 years or so, I wrote something very similar earlier in this thread.. MA themselves had a lot to do with the reduction of mu% across the board..

And yes, quite clearly that direction was not suitable long-term. even MA must know that.

We have seen here they are attempting some changes, one can at least hope that returning to a mu% environment could at least be one possible outcome?

I mean, its pretty clear that if current 2.0 drop rates stay the same mu% is going to rise right? There is at least some reason for hope.

The current situation has high turnover players in a sort of limbo because the mu% has not reached where it is heading just yet...
 
love the "can profit from MU so its ok for everyone to have 94% tt return", and "hofs are more likely if you grind more" - obviously you have no idea on the effects on shooting more and also on the amount of MU weight in the return if shooting more

* the output of items with possible MU has been minimized even more with loot 2.0, like 80% of the loot is crapnel at least on caly, which reflects MA's opinion best
* the MU comes from the lower level players but from the forum feedback the lower level players seem ok to pay more - or are the lower level players all using UL cheap stuff and there are no MU payers?
* big hunting hofs have been practically removed with years, even more so with loot 2.0
* the more you grind, the less the chances of getting a big hof - that's how the game mechanics are
 
girtsn said:
love the "can profit from MU so its ok for everyone to have 94% tt return", and "hofs are more likely if you grind more" - obviously you have no idea on the effects on shooting more and also on the amount of MU weight in the return if shooting more

* the output of items with possible MU has been minimized even more with loot 2.0, like 80% of the loot is crapnel at least on caly, which reflects MA's opinion best
* the MU comes from the lower level players but from the forum feedback the lower level players seem ok to pay more - or are the lower level players all using UL cheap stuff and there are no MU payers?
* big hunting hofs have been practically removed with years, even more so with loot 2.0
* the more you grind, the less the chances of getting a big hof - that's how the game mechanics are
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But to most "outsiders" it may look like you are doing very good when you are blowing 10-15k/day because you are in the global/hof list often. The real story of how much that is spent to get there isn't so easy to spot..

And I really don't see how it matters if I hit 95% getting a 5k hof or by getting a lot of 40ped drops. If I could turn off swirls and sound I'd do it. I don't care about it at all and what matters is the return over time.
 
Evey said:
after years and years of a lot of hunting, accumulated skills and gear should allow you to semiafk hunt, since HP of the creatures is 5k to 20k... Even at 150-200 DPS, on a 10k HP creature, you cannot look at the screen at lines of damage for at least half of the day; you will pop a movie on the other screen because these were the rules of the game. Best gun on big mob for as many hours as possible. Ubers only did what the game asked them to. Be as efficient as possible for maximum outcome.
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Read this again, and again, and again.

Does this sound even remotely like a "game" (RCE or not) anymore?

To me it sounds like a job and even a very sad job which bores you to tears, which you're only doing for the profit, and which forces you to do something else at the same time so you don't end up dying out of boredom.

Now if you enjoy this kind of job, that's all fine and dandy, who am I to criticize you for your preferences? All I'm saying is that I don't find it fair to have to (indirectly) pay you for your "job" of hunting in what is supposed to be a game.
 
I am currently at 105 percent TT return. But I only cycled 10k. It Will take me some months to get to 157k cycled.
 
minim said:
One player hunts for 10000ped a day and pays 500ped to MA. Another hunter hunts only for 100ped and he pays 5 ped to MA. Both are paying according to their ability and they get the same from ma :D What did I miss?
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In terms of MA results yeah, I think Marxism actually works just fine, although even here there would be small differences (the up to 7% role of efficiency was mentioned in the loot value not loot composition section, so having better gear still makes a noticeable difference, just not as much as before; also higher defensive skills means lower defensive costs, so again some difference).

But the biggest difference that skilling up offers you is the larger selection of mobs you can hunt, so more chances to go after the markup and profit this way. If I'm a noob and I can only hunt 10 mobs (which everyone else can also hunt) then there's a very high chance that it would be really hard for me to chase any MU because there would probably be an oversupply of everything. On the other hand, if you're an uber who can hunt 250 mobs (many of them which only a handful of other players can hunt) then, by properly analyzing supply and demand, you could (much more easily) find a mob which drops some loot which at that moment has a higher demand than supply, hence higher MU.

So leveling up wouldn't be useless and is not like once you got to a high level you always have to hunt at said high level; it just gives you a larger range of options to choose from... sometimes (dictated by the economic realities of the moment) it may be wiser to hunt at top level, sometimes it may be wiser to hunt at mid level and sometimes it may be wiser to hunt at bottom level. You'll have the option to do all these, while someone at a low level won't have them. And that's exactly the carrot he should be seeking - leveling up so he broadens up his options.
 
The Abomb said:
I don't mean just profit from MU either. They should have over TT in Profit and be making sizable 50k-100k PED withdraws every year. I mean that is only 5k-10K USD. If someone dedicates the hours and effort of the Elite. Shouldn't they be able to make a living off Entropia. I think so! Which means 5k-10k USD isn't enough. Although I would be happy with it. :cool:
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Dedicate the hours and efforts of the elite?

A university teacher or a doctor in my country is not making 10,000 USD a year. How many hours and efforts they dedicated to get there?
 
Evey said:
Ofc. What we got instead is a set of 3-5 mobs that fit our gear, for optimal oils... it's like when we draw for secret Santa, who to buy gift for, at work: who did you get? joplin dragon, esto and some oratan dude. what oils you ask? kidney, pancreas and adrenal, 100,000001%. See ya next Christmas then :laugh:
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Plain wrong!

Charlie|MindArk said:
It is completely fine to hunt lower level mobs and there is no "punishment" in doing so.
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So, nobody forces you to hunt a set of 3-5 high-level mobs.

You can always use some lower damage gear and scale down on lower mobs if you find out that those have the potential to deliver better markup. No punishment in doing so.

On the other hand, a lower level player doesn't have the option to easily go up and hunt a higher level mob if he finds out that those have the potential to deliver better markup.

Here's where your advantage resides. Now sure, if you want to ignore it and want to just play at your max level, hunting only the biggest mobs that's your problem alone. Not mine. Not MA's.
 
Gee, agreed with Alina, go actually play then talk.
Complete lack of basic understanding.
And all this talk about MU to the rescue as if it did not come from other players.

on caly, if you get 94% tt return, ~ 80% of that is crapnel.
start with 100000 peds
94000 peds returned
80% = 75200 crapnel * 1.01 = 75952 actual ammo
20% = potential MU = 18800
with 120% MU on full potential without auction costs (lol as if) = 22560
which is 75952+22560=98512 return, 130% MU makes about break even still no actual profit

hey where did the profit go? who is going to pay the 120% or 130%? some magical creatures who would need twice more MU to get close to breaking even? yep I clearly see this working out.

DoA said:
But the biggest difference that skilling up offers you is the larger selection of mobs you can hunt, so more chances to go after the markup and profit this way. If I'm a noob and I can only hunt 10 mobs (which everyone else can also hunt) then there's a very high chance that it would be really hard for me to chase any MU because there would probably be an oversupply of everything. On the other hand, if you're an uber who can hunt 250 mobs (many of them which only a handful of other players can hunt) then, by properly analyzing supply and demand, you could (much more easily) find a mob which drops some loot which at that moment has a higher demand than supply, hence higher MU.
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girtsn said:
on caly, if you get 94% tt return, ~ 80% of that is crapnel.
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You keep repeating this so often that I'm actually afraid that you might even start believing it.

80% shrapnel is a clear sign that you're not hunting optimally (right gear for the right mob) and you are punished for that in loot distribution.

On my personal hunting experience in Calypso (post 2.0) the shrapnel share was only 44.13% and I'm quite sure that this can be optimized even furthermore. My overall MU (counting shrapnel at 101% and loot that didn't sold yet at no markup) is 3.12% of total loot value; not amazing, but somehow decent enough. And that's with current low MU values and without really having a range of mobs to choose from. Sure, I'm not profiting, I'm not even breaking even, but I'm doing well enough to be content.

So before berating me and criticizing MA think if there's not something you can criticize at your own playstyle and if there are not things that you can improve (you know, clear your mind of the old habits, learn the new things and generally adapt to the new realities :p).

And in the new realities somehow you have to start thinking like miners (btw, kudos to all good miners out there)... they were all losing the TT battle, but they were winning the war by mining smart, going for the right minerals at the right time, knowing where and when to mine for each mineral, etc. In all this time you (well, in your case before EST, not really before 2.0) were used to blindly shoot 24/7 (or hire some monkeys to mindlessly press the same three buttons for you) and profit by simply winning the TT battle and don't give a dime about MU (as low as it was). Well, guess what... tough luck... now this is not working any more and you need to adapt and actually start thinking and make better judgement than just throw money on the best gear then semi-afk hunt while watching TV on another monitor as someone else said earlier.

Evey said:
after years and years of a lot of hunting, accumulated skills and gear should allow you to semiafk hunt, since HP of the creatures is 5k to 20k... Even at 150-200 DPS, on a 10k HP creature, you cannot look at the screen at lines of damage for at least half of the day; you will pop a movie on the other screen because these were the rules of the game. Best gun on big mob for as many hours as possible. Ubers only did what the game asked them to. Be as efficient as possible for maximum outcome.
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Try selling 8-10k PED of oils and hides per day then come back and say everything is ok you got MU (and very little of it at that)
 
Kazanori said:
Try selling 8-10k PED of oils and hides per day then come back and say everything is ok you got MU (and very little of it at that)
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That is the thing where our theories completely fall apart.

I really don't see *WHY* you should get 8-10k PEDs of oils and hides per day in the first place if there's not a market for them.

Instead of going for what (and in what quantity) the market needs, which I think is the smart way to play in 2.0, you're still playing like in 1.0 and just go blindly shooting whatever you feel like, how much you feel like then complain that you can't sell so much loot. Of course, you can't. But that's not something to blame on someone else, but just on yourself, since it was totally predictable.

You can always hunt something else (eventually mobs on other planets, which actually drop much lower oil percents), divert your hunts so you spread your loot in more stacks (the opposite of what we noobs have to do to stick with a single mob to make worthy enough stacks to list on AU), scale down on a lower level weapon and a lower level mob, scale down the time you're hunting to only produce as much loot that you can sell, etc. You have options! You just have to be willing to take advantage of them!

Do you think in real life things work differently? Do you think Apple couldn't make 10 or 100 times more iPhones if they would want? They sure could, but instead of doing so and end up with stocks they can't sell (sounds familiar?) they chose to only produce as many products that the market is actually demanding.

Disclaimer: Now, obviously, if you're not playing this game as an RCE, for profit, but instead you're playing it for fun and hunting at the top level is what's fun for you, then by all means necessarily continue to do that, just understand that since that's what you call entertainment, you have to pay (not be paid) for said entertainment.
 
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Thank you mr expert, for your extensive shooting experience and extensive data you have decided to share over the years :D
Of course you have never hunted mobs of higher level but you anyway know that what others are doing is wrong.
According to your precious advise, on one hand I have the choice of way more mobs because I am so skilled on the other I cannot hunt them as my equipment is completely wrong (and yea there are so many options out there for the mobs).
The only reason you are content with your returns is your puny turnover.
DoA said:
80% shrapnel is a clear sign that you're not hunting optimally (right gear for the right mob) and you are punished for that in loot distribution.
On my personal hunting experience in Calypso (post 2.0) the shrapnel share was only 44.13% and I'm quite sure that this can be optimized even furthermore. My overall MU (counting shrapnel at 101% and loot that didn't sold yet at no markup) is 3.12% of total loot value; not amazing, but somehow decent enough. And that's with current low MU values and without really having a range of mobs to choose from. Sure, I'm not profiting, I'm not even breaking even, but I'm doing well enough to be content.
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1. Why should people have to downgrade there equipment they have worked hard to get.

2. Doesn't matter what mob you hunt your going to get 90% of the same items.

3. Why should people have to play less because they have equipment that cycles more ped per hour than other. Seems to me that they are being penalised for working hard to skill up and get great gear.

Oh and as for hunting items that are in demand, well they are in demand because they are simply not dropping in any decent quantity to be able to cover that demand, they prob make up about 0.5% of your loot if your lucky
 
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DoA do a favor to all us and go start play before more theory, grand part of what you say its true, rest its bullshit than you dont even tested yourself and that make all whole not worth to read. you hunt low level mobs and think all mobs are the same, please, go explore, grind levels, play a bit, and you will see what others are talking about.

And sorry about the offtopic.

(As I see u will not stop and you have no real objetive of help anyone but only draw attention to you, I'm going to gently use the mute button this time and for first time in forums, no way to waste 20 minutes daily reading you and much less arguing with someone that does not even play but only talk about how others should play.)
 
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Kazanori said:
1. Why should people have to downgrade there equipment they have worked hard to get.

2. Doesn't matter what mob you hunt your going to get 90% of the same items.

3. Why should people have to play less because they have equipment that cycles more ped per hour than other. Seems to me that they are being penalised for working hard to skill up and get great gear.
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You shouldn't do any of these. It would just be smart to do if you want to actually manage to sell your loot. But if you don't then you shouldn't complain you can't sell all your overproduction either. As said, it works like in any other economic system - producers limit their supply to the level of demands; if they don't then they end up dropping the price or ending up with unsellable stocks.

That's the difference between playing for profits and playing for fun.

If you play for profits since this is a Real Cash ECONOMY game you must pay attention to the economic realities of supply and demand and only supply what is in demand (and for the quantity that is in demand). Is as simple as that.

If you play for fun then you can sure hunt whatever you want, whenever you want and for how long you want, just be ready to pay for your entertainment. Again, is as simple as that.

Being able to blindly shoot whatever you wanted, for how long you wanted and still make profit was obviously an exploiting behavior and not a sustainable one in the long term, The problem was now fixed so learn to deal with it - decide if you're here for fun (and hunt what you want, when you want, for how long you want) and pay for that or if you're here for profits (and hunt what is needed, when is needed and for how long is needed). You simply can't have both anymore at the expense of other players.
 
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Surya said:
DoA do a favor to all us and go start play before more theory, grand part of what you say its true, rest its bullshit than you dont even tested yourself and that make all whole not worth to read. you hunt low level mobs and think all mobs are the same, please, go explore, grind levels, play a bit, and you will see what others are talking about.
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I actually follow my own advice. I don't shoot at my skills level (not that this would be too high anyway), but at my budget level and I also choose to hunt only as much as I know I can sell for a decent MU to manage to cover my losses.

Once I'm done shooting, I switch to another fun thing for me, and that is posting on forums. And, to be honest, I'm not doing it out of kindness, trying to help or educate someone, but just because it is fun for me - you know, I really love the idea of debating, and since I don't have a debate club in my school or city, I choose to come here, pick one side (generally the opposite one from the majority, so it can actually be a debate), try to argument it and also try to counterargument what the others are saying - it's a really fun intellectual exercise for me.
 
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