Question: A question about grinding

Hyellow!

I kept hearing over and over again (including from very reputable persons whose intelligence and knowledge of game mechanics I totally appreciate, like atomicstorm / 5$) that in order to achieve good results one has to grind for at least a few hours.

Now I can see a lot of possibilities why jumping from one mob to another can be a bad decision, so I'm not asking about that, but what I'm asking is if you think that, as long as you stick with the same mob, it matters or not for as long as you're grinding on not?

So, in other, words, should be any difference in loot returns between player a and player b from the following scenario?

Player A kills 10,000 same mobs in 10 days, by killing 1,000 mobs per day in a single session per day (so a total of 10 sessions)

Player B kills 10,000 same mobs in 100 days, by killing 50 mobs per session, two sessions per days (so a total of 200 sessions)

In my mind, the results should be similar, since, in the end, is the same 10,000 exact mobs, killed with the same setup, but hearing so much talk about grinding and its positive effect I start wondering if I actually may be wrong.

If the answer is that, indeed, the two players get different results (more exactly player B getting lower results than player A) then please also explain to me why this is happening (obviously if that's not some secret that you don't want to share).

Thanks a lot in advance!

Grinding will reduce randomness by the simple nature of a bigger sample size.

Anything else is speculation. And people that know more won't speak.

well its quite obvious that this game gives out multiplier in sine waves. the longer ur grind the higher the chance of "riding" the complete wave so u minimize the swings.
i find that when i kill lots of mobs in a row for hours that the returns are more stable rather than when logging in for 30 mins, kill a bit and then go off for 2 hours and repeat that process. lot higher swings. it might be good if u hit the peak of each wave but you also might hit the low end of the wave each time

Id recommend hunting for at least 3 hours or 200 kills.. at least in loot 2.0... pre 2.0 if loot was bad i wouldnt hunt... but if u go by my first sentence you should be fine

depending on ur eco, it should give at least 85-90% return up to 96% based on my own longtooth hunting recently

DoA said:

Player A kills 10,000 same mobs in 10 days, by killing 1,000 mobs per day in a single session per day (so a total of 10 sessions)

Player B kills 10,000 same mobs in 100 days, by killing 50 mobs per session, two sessions per days (so a total of 200 sessions)

Click to expand...

Same mean mathematical expectation, with B likely having less variance.

('State of loot' is essentially a Markov chain just like weather in short-term perspective, and with fewer sessions the number of 'rainy days' is more likely to deviate from long-term average.)

Acro said:

And people that know more won't speak.

Click to expand...

Not so much because there is some super-duper secret knowledge they want to protect, it's just that most people know better than to wrestle pigs.

Prior to loot 2.0, I was player A, doing longer hunts of at least 2 hours to maybe 4-5 hours, time permiting.

Now, am not too sure, since have to experiment / understand what the changes are.

Player A - Kills 10k mobs

Player B - Creates 10k post


Wich hunter its going to be the most profitable in loot V2 ?

Sadly the B

Nvm I'm just joking, no idea.

Me Really Never said:

well its quite obvious that this game gives out multiplier in sine waves. the longer ur grind the higher the chance of "riding" the complete wave so u minimize the swings.
i find that when i kill lots of mobs in a row for hours that the returns are more stable rather than when logging in for 30 mins, kill a bit and then go off for 2 hours and repeat that process. lot higher swings. it might be good if u hit the peak of each wave but you also might hit the low end of the wave each time

Click to expand...

Funny how we all have our own loot religion.

I've read quite a lot opinions on this forum. And reading all those 101 different opinions is for me the prove that all is just random.

I've globalled on short runs, I've globalled on long runs. I've not globalled on short runs and I've had long runs without global.

It's just pure randomness.

It doesnt make a crap difference if you hunt 10x5 minutes a day or 1x 50 minutes.
It's just a matter of luck that those swirlies appear.
There's no build-in timer or whatsoever.

Entropia always works on time segments. As long as you cover a complete cycle during your hunt, you are maximising your chances. This used to be even more true for waves.

Before, I would say a minimum hunt length would have to be 1hr45min, this seemed to cover most cycles. However, this may have changed.

Additionally, the longer you hunt in one period will allow you to see other mechanics at work. Again, before the change, I could predict loot pool HOFs down to ~10 minutes; purely down to "feel" (I'd struggle to explain it here)... why I never got them is a different matter

wizz said:

Funny how we all have our own loot religion.

I've read quite a lot opinions on this forum. And reading all those 101 different opinions is for me the prove that all is just random.

I've globalled on short runs, I've globalled on long runs. I've not globalled on short runs and I've had long runs without global.

It's just pure randomness.

It doesnt make a crap difference if you hunt 10x5 minutes a day or 1x 50 minutes.
It's just a matter of luck that those swirlies appear.
There's no build-in timer or whatsoever.

Click to expand...

randomness doesnt explain why i get 5 minis in a row and then half an hour none. rinse and repeat. when hunting small mobd that are fast tio kill (less than 5 seconds) i can guarantee you 100% that i will get 1 - 4 more multiplier in the next 5 kills after getting the first multi. in a random environment this could and should happen. but not with that frequency and perfection

Me Really Never said:

i can guarantee you 100% that i will get 1 - 4 more multiplier in the next 5 kills after getting the first multi.

Click to expand...

Ok, I'll take you up on this challenge.
Give me proof that in 100% of the cases you get 1-4 multies in the next 5 kills after you get the first 1.

LOL!!!

If you can prove me that, I'll pay you 1000 ped.
If you fail, you pay me 1000 ped.

Ok?

Aio said:

I could predict loot pool HOFs down to ~10 minutes; purely down to "feel" (I'd struggle to explain it here)... why I never got them is a different matter

Click to expand...

I know what you mean, and then go try it and someone else gets the big one.
Doesn´t matter that you know when it happens, if you don´t get you simply don´t get it

to OP:

I am the B hunter pre Loot 2.0 and after 2.0.
So far I can say not much change for my style of hunting.
My returns are still the same with variance from 50% hunts to 500%+ hunts. What averages out to roughly 85-90% return rate from my hunting (not top eco to be honest). Can´t complain, for the money spend (lose) its fair payment for the entertainment I get.

What I agree is that I have larger swings in the returns / hunt than the grinders.

Pre Loot 2.0 'riding the wave' typically meant playing for at least one and a half hours most times til the next 'global wave' came. If you stayed 3.5 - 5 hours in 'one cycle' you may hit 2+ global waves if you were lucky, or at least be 'online enough' in once setting to see something like a auto skill buff show up on your avatar more than once.

With Loot 2.0 things are a bit different since shrapnel is what you are getting back more of than loot you'd regularly get in 1.0 Loot (or perhaps maybe we should call pre 2.0 Loot 1.5 since previously a few years back there was other previous manipulations of the loot cycle/system/whatever you want to call it and just as many disgruntled grinders back then actually, lol)...

In theory, the game is based on randomness, so in theory if you were player B and played at 'just the right time' your returns might be better than Player A, but the odds of that actually happening are probably a bit lower, or where prior to Loot 2.0. Nowadays, in honestly, who the hell knows, so just play the game the way you want to, even if that means you don't spend a ped until you've found 3 million sweat first.

Sticking with the same mob should allow you to increase your 'stack size' enough over time that you might be able to sell it someday. Hopping to other mobs may just get you a bunch of crappy stacks, some of which have nice markup but that have so low of tt value you won't be able to honestly sell it for another 12+ years of grinding.

I guess if you are 'lucky' your odds are about the same no matter what, but if unlucky, you are just at the 'wrong place, wrong time' to find the 'dynamic' part of Entropia....

Also, if you are doing iron missions, grinding daily will drive you closer to completing the mission. Just popping a shot and killing one mob of this, one mob of that, 3 of those, 2 of those, log off another week, log in and do same thing will make actual completion of missions a bit difficult.

Something else to consider... if loot 2.0 is causing a bit of a 'personal loot pool' to exist since the system is tracking your daily decay on armor, faps, etc. it would make sense that that pool is refreshed regularly, either on log out or in a 24 hour timer type of thing or something... so the longer you play per session the longer your 'personal progressive loot jackpot potential' grows...

http://gaming.unlv.edu/reading/Pacyniak.PDF

There are two kinds of slot machines: straight slots and progressives. These
machines are essentially the same, but for one feature: straight slots will pay
the winner a predetermined amount, where as progressive slots have a
jackpot that grows by a percentage of each coin played. In general, a number
of progressive machines are linked to a single computer where a grouping of
machines feed into one jackpot, and the jackpot grows to a very large dollar
sum, hundred of thousands and even millions. T

Click to expand...

Always play the maximum bet
whenever you can because this gives you the best odds of winning long-term
if you get a good hand and also with progressive jackpots the maximum bet
is required to have any chance of collecting the jackpot if you are lucky
enough to hit it.

Click to expand...

Hunting puny mobs, with no armor is not 'betting the maximum bet' and playing for only a few minutes at a time is not feeding the progressive slot machine. You could still win but your odds won't be as big as someone who's been feeding the machine a few hours, especially if 'personal loot pools similar to progressive slot machines' do exist now post loot 2.0

Every planet's 'thing' eventually get's borrowed by Mindark... Hub existed and then Mindark borrowed it to create the Battle Sim, etc. Perhaps Loot 2.0/Progressive slot idea was something Vegas to Macau had on the plate that Mindark's agreement now let them spread system wide? (honestly doubt Vegas to Macau ever was more than something on paper, but since we are talking about theories, it's something to speculate about, with a subtle smirky grin and a wink)

wizz said:

Ok, I'll take you up on this challenge.
Give me proof that in 100% of the cases you get 1-4 multies in the next 5 kills after you get the first 1.

LOL!!!

If you can prove me that, I'll pay you 1000 ped.
If you fail, you pay me 1000 ped.

Ok?

Click to expand...

i did the test last week on cyrene on those scout bot collector XT. they fall like flies and its easy to test. just test it ur own and you will see.

Me Really Never said:

i did the test last week on cyrene on those scout bot collector XT. they fall like flies and its easy to test. just test it ur own and you will see.

Click to expand...

But, are you willing to put your money where your mouth is, or not?

oops. double post

wizz said:

Funny how we all have our own loot religion.

I've read quite a lot opinions on this forum. And reading all those 101 different opinions is for me the prove that all is just random.

I've globalled on short runs, I've globalled on long runs. I've not globalled on short runs and I've had long runs without global.

It's just pure randomness.

It doesnt make a crap difference if you hunt 10x5 minutes a day or 1x 50 minutes.
It's just a matter of luck that those swirlies appear.
There's no build-in timer or whatsoever.

Click to expand...

There are sine waves built into the system. But who is to say there aren't two sine waves interacting with one another that determines when peaks and non peaks are? Just cause Player A is at a loot peak, does not mean Player B will also be on a hot streak, cause both have their own avatar sine wave that is interacting with the mobs sine wave. Just a thought for you to ponder over, nothing is ever random in math and has clear pre-determined levels, ever heard of Fibonacci or the unifying theory people think exists?

Good period of loot happens a few times a day. I you catch as many of these, your retuns will be even, according to your DPP and efficiency (def cost and stuff). Loot waves can't be raided, they just occur on either mob or hunter. When both are 'hot', the hunter will spam for a couple of hours, the global chat. That doesn't mean the hunter next to him will have the same result.

Trying to raid the loot waves will get the hunter to loose a lot of PEDs and the hunter becomes what 5$ reffers to as gummy bears, leaking PEDs all over.

This was pre loot 2.0. It's unclear for the moment what's best to do. After MA's description of the new system, many of us turned into gummy bear hunters, trying to find that optimal loot cool kids talk about

Surya said:

Player A - Kills 10k mobs

Player B - Creates 10k post


Wich hunter its going to be the most profitable in loot V2 ?

Sadly the B

Nvm I'm just joking, no idea.

Click to expand...

But, Player B also makes player A profitable. After some posting, all players A stop from hunting to explain player B, hunting. This immediately translates to nice profits for everyone

In long term the effect is somewhat diluted because Player B gets back to all Players A, individually, and explains them, regardless of their results, that they are wrong in every aspect of.. hunting

Just joking.

M Rufen Power said:

There are sine waves built into the system. But who is to say there aren't two sine waves interacting with one another that determines when peaks and non peaks are? Just cause Player A is at a loot peak, does not mean Player B will also be on a hot streak, cause both have their own avatar sine wave that is interacting with the mobs sine wave. Just a thought for you to ponder over, nothing is ever random in math and has clear pre-determined levels, ever heard of Fibonacci or the unifying theory people think exists?

Click to expand...

I can't reasonably imagine that such sine waves are purposely built into the system (not in 2.0 nor before). It seems more logically to be an oscillation effect caused by a tension-and-release mechanism (this would be familiar to someone with knowledge about amplifiers in analog electronics). Tension builds up every time value is put into the system (i.e. with every click or shot), and when a threshold is exceeded, the probability for a payout increases. This creates oscillations with many frequencies and harmonics, even long wavelengths. The threshold is determined by income stream minus operating costs minus needed revenue. While every individual event is randomized, the pivot point is determined. If the simulation is modeled after real-world concepts found in quantum mechanics, thermodynamics, electrodynamics, last but not least the idea of "entropy", then the observed behaviour can be explained. What it really is only MA knows, but I still tend to believe that the name "Entropia" was meant to hint at what the very core of this VR is about. Studying these principles helps a great deal in understanding.

I Will be the gummy bear.

Aio said:

Additionally, the longer you hunt in one period will allow you to see other mechanics at work. Again, before the change, I could predict loot pool HOFs down to ~10 minutes; purely down to "feel" (I'd struggle to explain it here)... why I never got them is a different matter

Click to expand...

I know what you mean. I was better at that a few years ago, I used to tell my soc mates X will swirl within the next couple of minutes, and it will happen.

On occasion I myself will be hunting the mob I "predicted" and will get the swirl. Usually someone else will get it. lol.

In recent months, my "prediction" was not as accurate, but it sort of still worked. Now, no clue. Guess time will tell

Thank you all for your answers, but with a few exceptions (like Haruto's or Aio's) the messages were pretty much off-topic, so can we please get back on track and discuss if there should be a notable difference between player A and player B (which both hunt the same number of the same mob, without any other mobs in between them, just that player A does that in ten long grinding sessions, while player B does that in 200 short sessions).

DoA said:

Thank you all for your answers, but with a few exceptions (like Haruto's or Aio's) the messages were pretty much off-topic, so can we please get back on track and discuss if there should be a notable difference between player A and player B (which both hunt the same number of the same mob, without any other mobs in between them, just that player A does that in ten long grinding sessions, while player B does that in 200 short sessions).

Click to expand...

Doa, you're looking for answers that nobody can give you.

It's all 100% subjective.

There are no set rules. As you must have read by now, we all experience it differently.

One person just knows how to better write it down as it being "facts" than others.

wizz said:

Doa, you're looking for answers that nobody can give you.

It's all 100% subjective.

There are no set rules. As you must have read by now, we all experience it differently.

One person just knows how to better write it down as it being "facts" than others.

Click to expand...

This.

At the moment no one has pretty much any clue how Loot 2.0 works or what they should be doing, therefore we see massive grinders and top hunters loosing money, and some "n00b" hunters making profit, it will take time to hone in on the best practice, and till then, your guess is as good as anybody else's. You seem to be a very smart person so you should be able to hone in on your own theory. At this time I would not trust any math or exact principles, because we see evidence of those failing, so yeah, it will take time for new ways to take root.

So if you want my personal experience, here goes.

I do not hunt short runs for several reasons.

1) I set goals for myself. For example "I will cycle 500 ped on Atrox today." and then I just go and shoot until that is done. I though of doing short runs and i just do not know what to do in between. So I end up refreshing AH or flying somewhere without any goal. So yeah, I prefer to stick to the "job" and blast away.

2) I keep hunting records (not extremely detailed ones, just how much total ammo + decay spent, how much loot i got back and how much total skills i gained and what I hunted), and I find it a pain to enter new records every few minutes. So I start, and after 1-2 hours I write it down.

3) Related to 1) > I am a person that gets momentum as I do something, so once I start, I do not like to be interrupted for any reason.


I do longer runs for the same reasons as above plus:

1) I get more "feel" for the current loot and hunting conditions on the long hunts than on short ones.

2) I believe that I get more skill bonus periods this way, I hate wasting those, even a second, and it would be a shame that I cannot use it fully because i have only enough ammo for the short run.


However, short runs might have benefits like, if you are using UL armor, you get to repair it in the breaks, therefore keeping your active protection level higher, or avoiding periods of catastrophic loot.

So some advice or "what would I do if I were you":

Do "poke" runs (20-30 mobs) if you plan hunting long, so you can avoid bad loot periods, you will know when you are getting good or bad loot and if it is worth continuing. As Aio said before, you get a "feel" for things.
A olympic spear thrower does not need to know physics behind a spear throw, he just needs to feel the way that he will achieve the best result from the factors present at the moment of the throw.

Plan which mobs you will hunt and match your equipment to those. Do not go too far above your comfort zone too often. But do experimental runs, that is the fun of it.

Be ready for times you will make mistakes, and then learn from them.
First think and rethink and than set goals for yourself and stay focused.

More pew pew and less QQ

That's all, use these as you will.

-Pho

Phoenix said:

-Pho

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You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later. Sorry.

M Rufen Power said:

There are sine waves built into the system. But who is to say there aren't two sine waves interacting with one another that determines when peaks and non peaks are?

Click to expand...

When i started and joined a good soc I was taught this as basic game knowledge.

There are three 'waves' and they cycle. These are loot, damage, and skills. Maybe a fourth but I've never felt sure if there's actually a crap or suppression wave, or it's just the intersection of the other three troughs.

In 2010 - 2012 these cycles lasted as long as 45 minutes to an hour, and since you could watch the global spam and see what was going on, it was fairly simple to get with the program and go do something that would be fun without losing your pedcard.

San said:

I can't reasonably imagine that such sine waves are purposely built into the system (not in 2.0 nor before). It seems more logically to be an oscillation effect caused by a tension-and-release mechanism (this would be familiar to someone with knowledge about amplifiers in analog electronics).

Click to expand...

Not sure about the timing mechanism, and there could be a solid analog reference. Nonetheless these cycles have been and continue to be observable. MA has shuffled things a couple of times over the years but until recently this pattern was still blatantly obvious once having seen it.

Evey said:

Good period of loot happens a few times a day. I you catch as many of these, your retuns will be even, according to your DPP and efficiency (def cost and stuff).

Click to expand...

Always and still the best argument for long grinding sessions, IMO. The more you play across the cycles, the more your returns in all areas will approach level.

Evey said:

Loot waves can't be raided, they just occur on either mob or hunter. When both are 'hot', the hunter will spam for a couple of hours, the global chat. That doesn't mean the hunter next to him will have the same result.

Trying to raid the loot waves will get the hunter to loose a lot of PEDs and the hunter becomes what 5$ reffers to as gummy bears, leaking PEDs all over.

Click to expand...

There was a time when they sure could. It was always pretty funny to watch.

Evey said:

This was pre loot 2.0. It's unclear for the moment what's best to do. After MA's description of the new system, many of us turned into gummy bear hunters, trying to find that optimal loot cool kids talk about

Click to expand...

Yes even since 2.0 it looks like the waves are cycling but in much smaller and possibly more randomized time increments. It probably wouldn't look as much like a clean sine wave if you could graph it. No idea if they have implemented some sort of 'triggering' as San describes or just randomized them a bit, but things sesem to be moving more in increments of a few minutes and with less predictability.

Evey said:

But, Player B also makes player A profitable. After some posting, all players A stop from hunting to explain player B, hunting. This immediately translates to nice profits for everyone

In long term the effect is somewhat diluted because Player B gets back to all Players A, individually, and explains them, regardless of their results, that they are wrong in every aspect of.. hunting

Just joking.

Click to expand...

Come on, you're not joking here. This is EU tradition all the way back to PE isn't it?

IMO the argument still stand that (even though I don't do this) the best way to apprach a consistent return is to work each session as long (across as many cycles) as possible. The shorter your sessions are, the more chance you have to be operating strictly within the troughs.

So that's my two cents on the question, take what you will from a gummy bear who still tries to pay attention.

Also FiveDolla it looks like you have coined a new popular term for the EU community

Aio said:

Entropia always works on time segments. As long as you cover a complete cycle during your hunt, you are maximising your chances. This used to be even more true for waves.

Before, I would say a minimum hunt length would have to be 1hr45min, this seemed to cover most cycles. However, this may have changed.

Additionally, the longer you hunt in one period will allow you to see other mechanics at work. Again, before the change, I could predict loot pool HOFs down to ~10 minutes; purely down to "feel" (I'd struggle to explain it here)... why I never got them is a different matter

Click to expand...

Also what Evey said. Nothing to add to that.

Well, nothing I (or anybody else) could prove, at least.
So there's that. Want to remain firmly with both of your feet on the ground stop reading now.

* * *

Spawns can be hot or cold. Experienced player can tell the difference. Which, unfortunately, takes time. Time spent on the cold spawn is a loss. So there's always some luck involved. Thus, some gummibears profit, others lose. It depends. Loot is in the spawn, not in the hunter.

How does one get a hot spawn? Either by finding it (and, possibly, "shaking the tree") or by warming it up all by yourself. If you decide to go for the latter, this takes time. Not ready to see it through better don't start.

You can profit on this knowledge alone if you master it. Then again, maybe I just made it all up?
You'll never know...

Fifth said:

Also what Evey said. Nothing to add to that.

Well, nothing I (or anybody else) could prove, at least.
So there's that. Want to remain firmly with both of your feet on the ground stop reading now.

* * *

Spawns can be hot or cold. Experienced player can tell the difference. Which, unfortunately, takes time. Time spent on the cold spawn is a loss. So there's always some luck involved. Thus, some gummibears profit, others lose. It depends. Loot is in the spawn, not in the hunter.

How does one get a hot spawn? Either by finding it (and, possibly, "shaking the tree") or by warming it up all by yourself. If you decide to go for the latter, this takes time. Not ready to see it through better don't start.

You can profit on this knowledge alone if you master it. Then again, maybe I just made it all up?
You'll never know...

Click to expand...

And [before 2.0], the bolded part made sense - "pumping"[SUP]1[/SUP] mobs which had high MU items/stackables which only dropped in PHAT LEWTS was a good strategy, as long as you were sure that no-one would turn up and theft your shit in lucky loots.

Another strategy was following around "loose" avatars who had high dps / low dpp combos, similar to the way a poker/blackjack pro might follow some drunk gambler in Vegas. Did this to our favourite Cyka Blyat crafter when he was pounding ambul with a BL1950.

[SUP]1[/SUP] probs best to do this with low dpp

Now... who the fuck knows

Fifth said:

Also what Evey said. Nothing to add to that.

Well, nothing I (or anybody else) could prove, at least.
So there's that. Want to remain firmly with both of your feet on the ground stop reading now.

* * *

Spawns can be hot or cold. Experienced player can tell the difference. Which, unfortunately, takes time. Time spent on the cold spawn is a loss. So there's always some luck involved. Thus, some gummibears profit, others lose. It depends. Loot is in the spawn, not in the hunter.

How does one get a hot spawn? Either by finding it (and, possibly, "shaking the tree") or by warming it up all by yourself. If you decide to go for the latter, this takes time. Not ready to see it through better don't start.

You can profit on this knowledge alone if you master it. Then again, maybe I just made it all up?
You'll never know...

Click to expand...

I am the hot Spawn.

Shake that thing...

Phoenix said:

So if you want my personal experience, here goes.

I do not hunt short runs for several reasons.

1) I set goals for myself. For example "I will cycle 500 ped on Atrox today." and then I just go and shoot until that is done. I though of doing short runs and i just do not know what to do in between. So I end up refreshing AH or flying somewhere without any goal. So yeah, I prefer to stick to the "job" and blast away.

Click to expand...

LOL

500 PED on Atrox is a short run