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Unmaxed safe to use now?

Detritus

Detritus

Sel-requested Deactivation
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Sep 25, 2016
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Detritus the Troll
...and what about unmaxed SIB weapons, while in SIB period? :)
 
I think the only reasonable and responsible answer is: We don't know yet.

I have been hunting with a GLR-33 and Adjusted ASG3 instead of the usual (L) SIB, and my returns are good and steady for now tho I don't keep logs (I can tell because my pedcard has remained the same). I just buy ammo, kill neomex, auction muscle oil and TT everything else. Transform crapnel, go hunt, rinse and repeat. My pedcard remains more or less the same for the last 2-3 weeks.

As I explained here it's nothing but a wild guess, so take it with a pinch of salt.

I'll keep using them even though I'm ~25 levels from being maxed, but proper tests should be conducted.

For now I have no reason to pay 15-20% markup on (L) stuff when these cheap non-sib unlimited weapons seem to work.

I'll let you know if I go bankrupt ;)
 
well, according to MA you shouldnt:

Loot value calculations and the composition of the items in loot will be affected by properly matching avatar skills and gear to the creature being hunted, rewarding efficient kills with more interesting loot. For optimal loot, it will be important to avoid inefficiencies such as low damage output compared to creature health, excessive time and cost to kill, overkill damage, unmaxed weapons and other factors.

So if you have to believe MA you shouldnt use non sib unless you're lvl 100 (or close)
 
Being driven by same curiosity got me a GLR-33 (84/84 hit/dmg, HA/CHA 9.2, 2.77 dpp bare, 2.87 with imp105 and imp ares). This thing asks for sights and a scope but guess it would spoil the results. Gonna try and log this after the migration.

Old eco ways don't work anyway, this way at least my imminent downfall will serve the science :D
 
Svarog said:
Being driven by same curiosity got me a GLR-33 (84/84 hit/dmg, HA/CHA 9.2, 2.77 dpp bare, 2.87 with imp105 and imp ares). This thing asks for sights and a scope but guess it would spoil the results. Gonna try and log this after the migration.

Old eco ways don't work anyway, this way at least my imminent downfall will serve the science :D
Click to expand...

I am ready to take all the blame if your returns go to shit...

:ahh:
 
wizz said:
well, according to MA you shouldnt:

Loot value calculations and the composition of the items in loot will be affected by properly matching avatar skills and gear to the creature being hunted, rewarding efficient kills with more interesting loot. For optimal loot, it will be important to avoid inefficiencies such as low damage output compared to creature health, excessive time and cost to kill, overkill damage, unmaxed weapons and other factors.

So if you have to believe MA you shouldnt use non sib unless you're lvl 100 (or close)
Click to expand...

ive done some testing with an adj hero and cycled about 10k peds with it. the loot composition, in regards to optimal loot, was the same as with a maxed weapon. it coulve been a bit better even. i got rare items like nanites as well with it so no restrictions here. i was around 7.7/10 with it on both. no amp used. return was 100% including MU. few good few bad runs, overall not too different from other guns
 
According to MA using unmaxed is fine in terms if returns except for "Skill Misses" which is seen as the "Hit Ability" in your weapon info screen, and is based on your level in the (Hit) profession for the weapon relative to the max level needed for the weapon.

gYLy4uL.png


0/10 hit ability = 80% chance to hit, 10% chance of skill miss, 10% chance of regular evade
10/10 hit ability = 90% chance to hit, 10% change of regular evade

regular evades are compensated for in loot, skill misses are not, they go towards the bonus pool which can be seen as double shrapnel loots, but is given to all players, so you will not necessarily be compensated for your inputs into the bonus pool.

so, in this case, at 7.3/10 hit ability I am losing aproximately 2.7% of my input automatically when using this weapon, nothing at all to scoff at in the grand scheme of things, so I still would not recommend using unmaxed, but compared to before, in terms of being unmaxed for crit chance and for damage values it doesn't matter anymore according to MA apart from the fact that it will still cost you additional PED per mob kill which probably results in less optimal loot, along with causing loot to be more volatile, making missions cost more to complete, etc
 
Darkaruki said:
According to MA using unmaxed is fine in terms if returns except for "Skill Misses" which is seen as the "Hit Ability" in your weapon info screen, and is based on your level in the (Hit) profession for the weapon relative to the max level needed for the weapon.

gYLy4uL.png


0/10 hit ability = 80% chance to hit, 10% chance of skill miss, 10% chance of regular evade
10/10 hit ability = 90% chance to hit, 10% change of regular evade

regular evades are compensated for in loot, skill misses are not, they go towards the bonus pool which can be seen as double shrapnel loots, but is given to all players, so you will not necessarily be compensated for your inputs into the bonus pool.

so, in this case, at 7.3/10 hit ability I am losing aproximately 2.7% of my input automatically when using this weapon, nothing at all to scoff at in the grand scheme of things, so I still would not recommend using unmaxed, but compared to before, in terms of being unmaxed for crit chance and for damage values it doesn't matter anymore according to MA apart from the fact that it will still cost you additional PED per mob kill which probably results in less optimal loot, along with causing loot to be more volatile, making missions cost more to complete, etc
Click to expand...
So basically cheap old school can get u by when l breaks so u can go long enough to hit next wave of double rainbows
 
My feeling, Before migration, was that you get "compensated", however expect 100% shrapnel.

Since migration begun my loot seems to be a bit, uh, off; I tried same type of run again but got 20% returns(*) but I don't know if MA changed some parameter or if it's the migration.

(*) Unscientific by looking at loot in loot window as it popped up for a relatively small number of (puny) mobs.
 
aia said:
My feeling, Before migration, was that you get "compensated", however expect 100% shrapnel.

Since migration begun my loot seems to be a bit, uh, off; I tried same type of run again but got 20% returns(*) but I don't know if MA changed some parameter or if it's the migration.

(*) Unscientific by looking at loot in loot window as it popped up for a relatively small number of (puny) mobs.
Click to expand...


I haven't seen any one doing migration mobs with unmaxed sib weapons except for the odd one or two avatars, compared to a huge amount before the migration.

I'm a medic and I've treated a lot of different people.. Reading your post and watching my own double shrapnel loots turn into absolute nothing during migration, I wonder if people have scrapped using non maxed old school weapons and turned to (L) during the migration... thus the lower amount of double shrapnels :scratch2:
 
I have a ml-35 mentor edition tier 5. I use it regularly. It helps bring a mobs health down significantly. I finish it with a really eco combo. So the bad eco of the gun gets mixed with the good eco of the knife I use + less armor decay which helps.

If you are going to user nonsib unmaxed weapons, I would recommend a long range non-sib rifle that packs a punch and combine it with a really good eco sib weapon, but I wouldn't recommend a non-sib pistol and grind with it, unless you are 2.8 or higher with it.
 
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Think of it this way..

Unmaxed safe to use?

Why would there even be "maxed" and "unmaxed" if it didn't matter?


Question answers itself I believe... :rolleyes:
 
Spawn said:
Does it?

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?297955-Spawn-s-hunting-Log

Yes yes sample too small.. IT Will get larger and larger.
Click to expand...


Switch over to only using unmaxed and let's see what happens :) use the ML and cycle around 20k peds, which doesn't take too long with the gun... we could see what the return looks like.

also, you do have some skills... a beginner at level 5 might get different results using the same setup - or is it safe to use for any one? or just the ones with skill - but not really maxed?


:scratch2:
 
LangeTobias said:
Switch over to only using unmaxed and let's see what happens :) use the ML and cycle around 20k peds, which doesn't take too long with the gun... we could see what the return looks like.

also, you do have some skills... a beginner at level 5 might get different results using the same setup - or is it safe to use for any one? or just the ones with skill - but not really maxed?


:scratch2:
Click to expand...

yes true. Not my advice though.
 
LangeTobias said:
I haven't seen any one doing migration mobs with unmaxed sib weapons except for the odd one or two avatars, compared to a huge amount before the migration.
Click to expand...

It was a totally different mob on a totally different planet (Zombies on Rocktropia), with main difference Before and during migration.
 
Necroing this. Is this equation in the first post still accurate for calcing the entra loss of using unamxed gear? The entropiawiki weapon v2 seems to do it some other way.
 
minim said:
Necroing this. Is this equation in the first post still accurate for calcing the entra loss of using unamxed gear? The entropiawiki weapon v2 seems to do it some other way.
Click to expand...

I don't see an equation in the first post. But unmaxed is certainly not "safe to use". 1% (being at 9.0/10.0 HA) over any decently sized cycle is huge and equates to a 14.3% efficiency difference.

There are a few options that make sense to use unmaxed, but they are just that, very few.

Now it can make sense for other reasons. Just make sure that you understand the cost. Every miss is cost not accounted for and thus immediately lost.
 
I guess he wants confirmation that this has been turret tested? I dont have a lvl 100 gun right now or I would.
 
Ferial said:
I don't see an equation in the first post. But unmaxed is certainly not "safe to use". 1% (being at 9.0/10.0 HA) over any decently sized cycle is huge and equates to a 14.3% efficiency difference.

There are a few options that make sense to use unmaxed, but they are just that, very few.

Now it can make sense for other reasons. Just make sure that you understand the cost. Every miss is cost not accounted for and thus immediately lost.
Click to expand...
In my case im 7/10 on a fen claw and I’m gaining levels fast. The claw is 81% effi and my L maxed alternative to skill with is 60% effi and 103-104% markup no shrap usage. So if first post still is true I’m loosing 3% on using it unmaxed but 1.4% is “recovered” by high effi and the rest is lost in markup if I was to use L (not considering UL amp).
 
Ah i see. I dont have any data below 8.5 HA since that would just have been too expensive for my taste. Your numbers sound correct and the easiest way to see how much you are actually losing (since you are already using it, it sounds like) is to just track hit rate, just to make sure.
That being said, my data indicates linearity. My data is however only on non-sib weapons and I am therefor uncertain that the same rules apply regardless. A hit rate test would be preferable.

Afaik all the readily available L powerfists have no ammo use at all and as such are straight cost increase of the MU. Most of the time it is never a good idea to use these weapons.

If you want to know your hit rate and/or the difference and don't have the means to check it. Do a fairly decent sized hunt and PM me the chat.log bit from that hunt and I can check it for you later this evening, if you'd like.
 
All MISS dont count as cost. You can test that on shared loot. When you get " The target Evaded your attack" you get loot. I tested it on shared feff > only did one hit on mobs and i had a 0 HA weapon to be sure :).
 
Is it safe to use my Karma Killer yet then ?

85 hit 84 damage
 
Alina said:
All MISS dont count as cost. You can test that on shared loot. When you get " The target Evaded your attack" you get loot. I tested it on shared feff > only did one hit on mobs and i had a 0 HA weapon to be sure :).
Click to expand...
Ok so then 7/10 means a 3% loss. Crit ab i guess dosent matter?
 
minim said:
Ok so then 7/10 means a 3% loss. Crit ab i guess dosent matter?
Click to expand...
I think its more like 97% of what u supposed to get if ur HA is 10/10, but it doesnt mean u gonna get 3% less tt return. if u gonna get 95% tt return using 10/10 HA for that run, then u gonna get 97% of that 95% which is 92.15%, not 92%
 
ForeGroundText said:
I think its more like 97% of what u supposed to get if ur HA is 10/10, but it doesnt mean u gonna get 3% less tt return. if u gonna get 95% tt return using 10/10 HA for that run, then u gonna get 97% of that 95% which is 92.15%, not 92%
Click to expand...
I meant additional 3% loss compared to maxed setup.
 
never mind
 
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