Question: Ares Ring, still useful?

With the latest findings on Loot 2.0, it seems that focused blow and crit have a negative impact on loot. But at the same time higher DPS is positive. So, what to do with Ares rings? It is still advisable to use them or should they be avoided? Maybe increasing HP is a better solution rather than increasing Crits? What do you think?

In general, the lower the cost to kill a creature, the higher the proportion of loot composition will be Optimal Loot. There is no inherent “kill timer” for each creature; Optimal Loot is calculated based on costs, not on time.

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From Dev note #12

So, i guess it's still possible to use FB and increase crit damage, that will reduce you kill cost. But now, it's different from loot 1.0 because that will not give you more loot, so at the old price it not worth to use these items. But if you have some of these item for a fair price, they still are usefull especially if you have a bad efficiency weapon.

I think that decreasing time and cost of kill can't be wrong no matter what

I think increasing DPP still gives a slightly boost to your "economy" which will result in some level of increase in returns overall, although not to the same degree as before, I also think increasing "economy" will result in a lower percentage of your loot being returned to you as shrapnel, the last point that I think is pretty important is that DPS increase given by ares ring is actually extremely valuable as well, when you look at how much people pay in weapons, pills, damage enhancers, amps, etc to increase their DPS, the fact that these rings provide additional reload speed on an unlimited basis for free once you've bought them is still very valuable, and that this has always been a large factor in the value of these items for players.

DPP allows you to kill more mobs for the same amount of PED allowing you to complete missions cheaper as well as access a mob's loot table at a lower cost, and still has an effect on average returns as well.

DPS decreases mob regen and defensive costs while increasing the rate at which you can kill mobs, and increasing the range of mobs which you can feasibly kill.

I'm confident Ares rings are still very valuable.

Rocket posted this example in a different thread.

Rocket192 said:

Imagine hunting a 4 ped mob that drops high tt oils... like kindey/pancreas..

So you crit 5 times and kill that mob for 1.8 ped instead of 3.8 ped at your base dpp w/ buffs... The TT of the oil is too high to be given to you, so you only get the shrapnel.

sure you'd get some of that back in multis and whatever else, but it does add much more variance in a system with too much variance as it is.

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This is why increasing crits could be worse. But maybe increasing the DPS can compensate it. Not sure.

Justine said:

From Dev note #12

So, i guess it's still possible to use FB and increase crit damage, that will reduce you kill cost. But now, it's different from loot 1.0 because that will not give you more loot, so at the old price it not worth to use these items. But if you have some of these item for a fair price, they still are usefull especially if you have a bad efficiency weapon.

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While there may be no kill timer, I suspect that there are still mini waves that exist, and the way to 'get the loot' from those waves is to basically kill the mob faster than the other guy... so buff up and get busy.

Buffing up may not get you better loot composition per mob, but will get better loot composition overall, in the long haul, I think. Essentially, you'll be able to kill faster, so you'll get the mini-waves and double shrapnel returns faster than the guy next to you.

The way I see it is that Loot 2.0 is more like a progressive jackpot setup than Loot 1.0 was, so basically, like irl casinos, if you are playing 3 machines at once while the other guy is playing only one (killing 3 mobs for his 1) , your odds are a little better than his at getting the built up progressive jackpot.

mastermesh said:

While there may be no kill timer, I suspect that there are still mini waves that exist, and the way to 'get the loot' from those waves is to basically kill the mob faster than the other guy... so buff up and get busy. Buffing up may not get you better loot composition per mob, but will get better loot composition overall, in the long haul, I think. Essentially, you'll be able to kill faster, so you'll get the mini-waves and double shrapnel returns faster than the guy next to you.

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I'd agree with the 'mini-wave' theory. Hunting Longtooth recently I encountered a few times when I would global many times in a few minutes. I once globalled 3 times in a row on Dominants, which was pretty awesome. So I guess it is all about timing. If you can enhance your economy while reducing time to kill then you can take advantage of these moments I guess.

Actarus said:

With the latest findings on Loot 2.0, it seems that focused blow and crit have a negative impact on loot. But at the same time higher DPS is positive. So, what to do with Ares rings? It is still advisable to use them or should they be avoided? Maybe increasing HP is a better solution rather than increasing Crits? What do you think?

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Might want to clarify 'negative impact on loot' like you put less in and get accordingly less out, not tt return % going down (which is what matters anyway).

Definitely not as big of an edge from Focused Blow as in pre-2.0, that's quite evident, but claiming it has negative impact on tt return % is getting ahead of ourselves.

I can also add to what Darkaruki suggested about loot composition, so far I've seen up to 9% difference in amount of shrapnel on some mobs between Summer Ring 2016 (2.0 FB) and Imp Ares (0.6 FB). Both having 8% reload so dps is not exactly same but very close, big difference being eco.

I guess there should theoretically be some scenarios where overall droprate of some oils (due to high tt) is affected, as suggested by Rocket. I don't see that as a big knock on the rings though, there are so few situations like that anyway. Also, in some cases you are actually better off avoiding the high tt stackable of the loot table in favor of the alternatives.

Actarus said:

Rocket posted this example in a different thread.



This is why increasing crits could be worse. But maybe increasing the DPS can compensate it. Not sure.

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But this is exactly like how it was in the old system. It has always been worse eco = more loot. Why do people think this is a new feature after MA explained it? Didn't you guys test things in the old system?

I'd still say it's worth it just as it was before.

minim said:

But this is exactly like how it was in the old system. It has always been worse eco = more loot. Why do people think this is a new feature after MA explained it? Didn't you guys test things in the old system?

I'd still say it's worth it just as it was before.

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No, we are not speaking about worse eco = more loot, we are saying that, now, increased crits and focused blow = less loot, which is quite different. And no, it wasn't the same way in the old system, at least this feature.

minim said:

But this is exactly like how it was in the old system. It has always been worse eco = more loot. Why do people think this is a new feature after MA explained it? Didn't you guys test things in the old system?

I'd still say it's worth it just as it was before.

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It is different if they put it black on white. No more speculation and stuff.
Old idea's are hard to die; else the price difference between a10x series and E-amp series would be lower.
Sure you get 1-3% more more loot per ped with a very eco setup on long term average; but that uneco setup might bring you an extra ESI or other nice stuff every now and then.

But it is different than it was; in the old system the eco gap was bigger. MA made is about half as big.
In the end everything will settle to an equilibrium anyway since we compete against each other and the house never loses.

But it is different than it was; in the old system the eco gap was bigger. MA made is about half as big.
In the end everything will settle to an equilibrium anyway since we compete against each other and the house never loses.

quote from above

if the house gives MU sometimes in loot then perhaps or else if you always lose peds now whey hunt anyway

Now, these items are not ped makers like before, that mean for me, they do not have the same value (with MU) as before loot 2.0.
But they still are useful for other reasons, they just worth another MU now.

It appears that a few people selling theirs has caused the entire game to doubt them. I don't own an ares ring so I have no stake in the argument other than to say that I've used perfected ares since the vu and done fine. I've also used a summer ring 2016. I don't think that the intention was to ever "lower" loot from doing more dmg. Ares rings make the cost to kill a mob go down which in turns increases your chance to profit.

The way that I and many others have read the way that MA worded their loot 2.0 addition is simply what I've stated. If a mob has a lot of regeneration, the faster you kill it the better. If a mob has little regeneration, a great damage per pec gun would be better. This all seems like common sense but a lot of people have misread MA's addition of the efficiency of the weapon. The skills portion of this hasn't been implemented which is causing a lot of higher skilled players to get fucked on their loot vs the "easy" profits of loot 1.0.

I am not the all knowing, all seeing one I realize. I just am stating what I've observed and read. If you don't agree, sell your perfected ares, scopes, and sights for cheap, I'd be glad to buy them.

Good Luck and Happy HoFFing!

I'm doing fine with the imp ares I looted, I assume I would be doing a little better over the long haul with a perfected ares with the extra .6 crit hit and 6% crit dmg ( I already max reload with my '16 xmas). So the question is, how much turnover do I have to do to make buying one worthwhile.

As of June 28th, It appears they are still dropping in loot, that means I might have a rare chance of looting one, I doubt that will happen, so I might be convinced to buy one for a really good price, but it would have to be a really good price for something that is still dropping in loot, and price.

Has it actually been proven that there is a negative impact? I mean we are still new to this loot 2.0.
I can see you getting less TT but thats because your spending less TT to kill. But it should still even out over the long run. You just may not get much of a boost in TT value unlike before where you could get a few % more.
I guess you could consider that a negative impact in some way but i don't see it being negative if you compared to not having one. If you compared it to before loot 2.0 then i guess its a negative to that. But if you were to not use one compared to using one, i would say you should see a better return with one...but again we are still in early stages and no big testing has really gone on (well not that is shared), and everything is still likely to change more once MA tweak some more stuff.

In terms of improving the overall return rate %, they do nothing.

Mobs have a set tt return, your setup will not lower that, it simply decreasing the cost for you to kill, and better eco you have will actually increase your loot return up to i think 7% (eff 0 to 100% is a 7% difference) stated by MA, i dont have the links, but theyve stated this.


if you kill a mob for 1 pec for example, your loot wont be a max of 1 pec when its a 3 ped kill.. just sayin.
that being said, thats not possibly, but the loot is set, now it happens to be slightly adjusted based on your gear.

but at no point should a cheaper cost to kill result in a lower tt return.

Dennis blighter said:

Mobs have a set tt return, your setup will not lower that, it simply decreasing the cost for you to kill, and better eco you have will actually increase your loot return up to i think 7% (eff 0 to 100% is a 7% difference) stated by MA, i dont have the links, but theyve stated this.


if you kill a mob for 1 pec for example, your loot wont be a max of 1 pec when its a 3 ped kill.. just sayin.
that being said, thats not possibly, but the loot is set, now it happens to be slightly adjusted based on your gear.

but at no point should a cheaper cost to kill result in a lower tt return.

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No longer the case in loot 2.0

Lets get away from the whole "negative impact" phrase. It's not as if your better eco from FB will give you a less % return. What the loot system WILL do is adjust your return value to match a % of your cost.

So if it costs you 1.00PED, you will see a average .98PED return. 10.00PED, 9.80PED, etc.

It's no longer a set return tt average solely based on mob. It adjusts to your kill cost. That's not necessarily "negative" just re-balanced. The negative really is in the devaluation of items that used to provide significant profit due to their cost savings vs a static average tt return based on mob; the old system.

Reload is still very useful. FB keeps you out in the field longer and lets you drop mobs faster, increasing your eco and making you more optimal. But it won't net you tt profit as before.

Eli said:

Lets get away from the whole "negative impact" phrase. It's not as if your better eco from FB will give you a less % return. What the loot system WILL do is adjust your return value to match a % of your cost.

So if it costs you 1.00PED, you will see a average .98PED return. 10.00PED, 9.80PED, etc.

It's no longer a set return tt average solely based on mob. It adjusts to your kill cost. That's not necessarily "negative" just re-balanced. The negative really is in the devaluation of items that used to provide significant profit due to their cost savings vs a static average tt return based on mob; the old system.

Reload is still very useful. FB keeps you out in the field longer and lets you drop mobs faster, increasing your eco and making you more optimal. But it won't net you tt profit as before.

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This is EXACTLY like it was in the old system. There was never a set return before either and hunting with maxed swine deluxe gave more loot than with imk2. Taking shitton of armor decay also gave higher returns. I guess the masses now hope that eco doesn't matter and spin it all they can hoping it will become true in the end. Why on earth do they show a efficiency parameter and state that it's 7% of the loot calculation. Because it matters period!

minim said:

This is EXACTLY like it was in the old system. There was never a set return before either and hunting with maxed swine deluxe gave more loot than with imk2. Taking shitton of armor decay also gave higher returns. I guess the masses now hope that eco doesn't matter and spin it all they can hoping it will become true in the end. Why on earth do they show a efficiency parameter and state that it's 7% of the loot calculation. Because it matters period!

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I'm not sure where or how to begin to respond to this one. This was some theory that cropped up at some point and just took hold for no fathomable reason. If that was the case, none of the high eco set ups would have been able to achieve the return benefits they did.

No one said eco doesn't matter. But I think you've missed a few discussions on the difference on HOW it matters between 1.0 and 2.0.

Eli said:

I'm not sure where or how to begin to respond to this one. This was some theory that cropped up at some point and just took hold for no fathomable reason. If that was the case, none of the high eco set ups would have been able to achieve the return benefits they did.

No one said eco doesn't matter. But I think you've missed a few discussions on the difference on HOW it matters between 1.0 and 2.0.

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Oh I've tested it myself. I've used swine,foe,modrip,m88,macmahoon+++ and two times imk2 in the past. There is no doubt whatsoever that less eco generated more loot. Long time however eco is winning and that's just what they have explained now black on white. Still people don't get it

I must have.. To me the loot 2.0 looks like tweaking of parameters. The system behaved like this before but now they have capped it more and put some limits in.

Time will tell but I'm pretty sure eco still is going to win in the long run. MA revealing that the efficiency matters 7% of the loot calculation kinda confirms that ^^ So if you go with as low eco as you can you will most likely, in the long run, get 7% less return than someone with maxed efficiency. If your mid eco it might only be a 3-4% difference but that's still a huge amount if you are hunting a lot.

The latest logs, that can be found in this same section, are showing no improvements by using Ares rings. In fact after loot 2.0 the most eco gears are getting no more than an average of 97% return. The same gear used to have at least a 101% return in Loot 1.0. As someone stated before, this is clearly painting a picture.

Actarus said:

The latest logs, that can be found in this same section, are showing no improvements by using Ares rings. In fact after loot 2.0 the most eco gears are getting no more than an average of 97% return. The same gear used to have at least a 101% return in Loot 1.0. As someone stated before, this is clearly painting a picture.

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Average returns are still affected by DPP/Efficiency, however, the difference between the worst possible DPP setup available in the game and the best possible DPP setup in the game, according to MA, is 7%.

So, the difference in return rate between using an average 2.95DPP setup and using imk2 with buffs should still be about 3% in return rates, which might not sound like much but 3% higher returns on average is pretty massive for anybody who isn't a small time shmuck hunter.

From the looks of it, however, it does seem that even hyper eco setups in the current loot climate will not be reaching the consistent 100%+ returns they were before, but rather, be around 97-99% on an infinite timeline, meaning that most hunters will see returns around 93-96% I believe.

As for whether or not buffs still affect return rates, I think it's a bit questionable to try to draw a conclusion just from a few logs when there are so many other factors and practically everybody uses buffs, but I imagine they do, just not as much as before.

I think this is realy intersting
But i still belive DPP is still very important. I also think its like atomicstorm says its like at the poker tables MA take the rake no matter what. Now what the mid is depends on what the rake % is, lets say 5% for this thought experiment. That means mid is 95%, now MA says the difference beween top and bottom is 7% for max efficiency vs max unefficiency. We dont know what the old differece was but lest say around dobble 14% this leaves us with this:

OLD: min 88%TT return (max unefficiency) --> max 102%TT return (max efficiency)
New: min 91,5%TT return (max unefficiency) --> max 98,5%TT return (max efficiency)

Now these numbers are just made up to prove my logic and are by no means part of anny experiment. As you can see the DPP will still matter just that now you cant go out and choose a mob random and profit you need MU for that.
The shift now is comperable to poker in the way that in 2004 the fish was plenty and as a deacent player you could profit on any table, but now in 2017 there are less fish and picking the right table is way more important.

I can see that this can be a big problem for a hig end hunter who chooses the wrong mob, the looses would be very big very fast. I also have to say that i am a noob so i dunno if there is a avrage 103%-105% avrage MU mob up there to turn this into profit.

minim said:

Oh I've tested it myself. I've used swine,foe,modrip,m88,macmahoon+++ and two times imk2 in the past. There is no doubt whatsoever that less eco generated more loot. Long time however eco is winning and that's just what they have explained now black on white.

MA revealing that the efficiency matters 7% of the loot calculation kinda confirms that ^^ So if you go with as low eco as you can you will most likely, in the long run, get 7% less return than someone with maxed efficiency.

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1. Less eco generated more loot in 1.0 BUT not proportional to eco decrease. Dramatically out of proportion. Nowadays the increase in tt loot is more corelated to the decrease in eco. Still a losing scenario, but in no way "it was exactly the case". It is directly correlated to the loot being tied to cost to kill, not to hp of mob. You're about the only person on the forum which denies this, which was also stated by MA "departure from the once-dominating model of DPP".

2. The impact of efficiency being 7% doesn't mean the actual tt result will differ with 7%.

On topic, there is still value for sure in the items, but it is impossible to asses the true value. When these items were influencing the tt return most of us simply didn't knew. Because to test these things it requires quite a big bankroll and access to quite a few gear scenarios, which is out of reach for 95% or more of players, is tied strictly to cash not to skills.

On the forums, we were just getting the usual bullshit of "nobody profits tt". When they were, in fact, profiting tt.

So, the scenarios in which these items are truly shinning now didn't and won't appear public. When and if somebody will guess/succesfully test the winning combination, will keep it for own use, as is normal, with such systemic info. They for sure still have value and will be decided by market, in the end.

If we're simply not bullshited in public, it wouldn't be the first time. The scenario that a society of ubers sell all their belongings in same time is unlikely, because it would mean they collapse the prices one for each other. We have 0 confirmed sale for now, and I will rather consider all active sale threads and so on as drama and smoke screen.