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rings and eco/return in defense

Running the test now
 
Results: Smaller sample size than I'd like but I got bored :D

Shooter -> Zho
Whip Hit 29.98
Laser Sniper Hit 62

Test Dummy -> Eli
Evader 39.55
Dodger 32.75

Ring: Athenic Augmented

Gun: Sollomate Rubio(L)
Whip: Dominax Original Garter (L)

So with the Sollomate Rubio (L), I attacked 100 times, with Eli wearing the ring and without.

With the ring, hit rate is 100% (100 hits of 100 attempts) no evades
Without the ring, hit rate is still 100% (100 hits of 100 attempts) no evades

So with the Dominax Original Garter (L), I attacked 210 times, with Eli wearing ring and without

With the ring, hit rate is 85% (31 evades, 179 hits out of 210 attempts)
Without the ring, hit rate is 93% (15 evades, 195 hits out of 210 attempts)

Probably need more attempts but too lazy :D
 
WTF I'm a test dummy now?!!?!? :cry:

But yeah this would be great if people can do similar and post their results, it'll help with the sample size because you know sitting here getting beat up is boring...
 
Jhereg said:
Results: Smaller sample size than I'd like but I got bored :D

Shooter -> Zho
Whip Hit 29.98
Laser Sniper Hit 62

Test Dummy -> Eli
Evader 39.55
Dodger 32.75

Ring: Athenic Augmented

Gun: Sollomate Rubio(L)
Whip: Dominax Original Garter (L)

So with the Sollomate Rubio (L), I attacked 100 times, with Eli wearing the ring and without.

With the ring, hit rate is 100% (100 hits of 100 attempts) no evades
Without the ring, hit rate is still 100% (100 hits of 100 attempts) no evades

So with the Dominax Original Garter (L), I attacked 210 times, with Eli wearing ring and without

With the ring, hit rate is 85% (31 evades, 179 hits out of 210 attempts)
Without the ring, hit rate is 93% (15 evades, 195 hits out of 210 attempts)

Probably need more attempts but too lazy :D
Click to expand...

I cant say for now but in old system the pvp system was alot different regarding evade and dodge then normal mobs. It was a relationship between gunlevel and avatar getting shot and not the same algoritm or formula as for evading mobs.

I can do a test on a mob someday with modfap and no armor to see result with and without ring since it wont cost much more then my time.

//Linzey
 
krogfan said:
I cant say for now but in old system the pvp system was alot different regarding evade and dodge then normal mobs. It was a relationship between gunlevel and avatar getting shot and not the same algoritm or formula as for evading mobs.

I can do a test on a mob someday with modfap and no armor to see result with and without ring since it wont cost much more then my time.

//Linzey
Click to expand...


Yeah, I think we considered that as well and know that PvP and PvE is going to be very different but I think the biggest key here is that if you weren't going to evade/dodge ANY hits at all without the ring, you aren't going to evade or dodge them with a right either. It's not a flat benefit.
 
Jhereg said:
Results: Smaller sample size than I'd like but I got bored :D

Shooter -> Zho
Whip Hit 29.98
Laser Sniper Hit 62

Test Dummy -> Eli
Evader 39.55
Dodger 32.75

Ring: Athenic Augmented

Gun: Sollomate Rubio(L)
Whip: Dominax Original Garter (L)

So with the Sollomate Rubio (L), I attacked 100 times, with Eli wearing the ring and without.

With the ring, hit rate is 100% (100 hits of 100 attempts) no evades
Without the ring, hit rate is still 100% (100 hits of 100 attempts) no evades

So with the Dominax Original Garter (L), I attacked 210 times, with Eli wearing ring and without

With the ring, hit rate is 85% (31 evades, 179 hits out of 210 attempts)
Without the ring, hit rate is 93% (15 evades, 195 hits out of 210 attempts)

Probably need more attempts but too lazy :D
Click to expand...

So 0% evade chance is still 0% evade chance and it looks like defense rings reduce hit chance by buff %, at least in pvp (probably same with mobs).

Not sure what to make of the whip results, that's roughly a 100% increase in evades.
 
Sorry for being a douche, had given plasma that day (make me moody lol) and had a stressful week ahead at work (almost over now). Once I had written out my formulas I was able to tweak them to compare with Xen's results.

The point I had been trying to iterate (badly) was that there needed to be a justification of adhering to a particular formula, based upon the data we had. There are many ways to test the varying hypotheses.

I had originally been propounding the idea of
newhit=(1-buff)*oldhit
however realised that Xen's data implies
newhit=oldhit/(1+buff)

Its implications aren't huge in the scheme of things, however it does significantly vary from Zho's idea. (I will get to PVP later. PVP is known to have different rules, as per Linzey's post)

Reconciling Xen's data in Zho's model:
Xen_new_evade_vsmaff=Xenoldevade_vs_maffs*(1+buff)
(1/1.24)=Xenoldevade*(1.24)
Xen's oldevade vs maffs=(1/1.24^2)=65% (35% hit)

I didn't like this model as I felt it was inconsitent with known maff hit level (mafff being a low level mob, Xen having very high evade)

Comparison of the two models

athenic_buff.jpg


In Zho's model it's possible an avatar could never be hit by a mobs, essentially making faps and armor useless. From many ubers with these buffs, I doubt the application of this model.


PVP rules

There is a thread somewhere looking at this.

Essentially,
Hit %=100+(Hit+profession-Evader_profession)

With Zho/Elis observations, this rule holds true if we apply a flat benefit to Evader/Dodger/Jammer profession:

Rubio
Unbuffed Hit%=100+62-32.75=129% (observed: 100%)
Buffed hit%=100+62-32.75*1.2=122% (observed: 100%)

Dominax
Unbuffed Hit%=100+29.98-39.55=90% (observed: 93%)
Buffed hit%=100+29.98-47.46*1.2=83% (observed: 85%)

More data will make it clearer. Best test scenario would be a mob that hits you ALMOST all of the time (to eliminate a MA trick wherethe mob hit level plays a role/is extended past 100 such that 100/(1+buff)>100).

Melee Phasms or PVP Hogglo Olds/providers will probably do the trick for a control for ~40Evader
 
Xen said:
So 0% evade chance is still 0% evade chance and it looks like defense rings reduce hit chance by buff %, at least in pvp (probably same with mobs).

Not sure what to make of the whip results, that's roughly a 100% increase in evades.
Click to expand...


210 attempts might just be too low, so might be worthwhile to get a few more attempts I think.
 
Immortal said:
Sorry for being a douche, had given plasma that day (make me moody lol) and had a stressful week ahead at work (almost over now). Once I had written out my formulas I was able to tweak them to compare with Xen's results.

The point I had been trying to iterate (badly) was that there needed to be a justification of adhering to a particular formula, based upon the data we had. There are many ways to test the varying hypotheses.

I had originally been propounding the idea of
newhit=(1-buff)*oldhit
however realised that Xen's data implies
newhit=oldhit/(1+buff)

Its implications aren't huge in the scheme of things, however it does significantly vary from Zho's idea. (I will get to PVP later. PVP is known to have different rules, as per Linzey's post)

Reconciling Xen's data in Zho's model:
Xen_new_evade_vsmaff=Xenoldevade_vs_maffs*(1+buff)
(1/1.24)=Xenoldevade*(1.24)
Xen's oldevade vs maffs=(1/1.24^2)=65% (35% hit)

I didn't like this model as I felt it was inconsitent with known maff hit level (mafff being a low level mob, Xen having very high evade)

Comparison of the two models

athenic_buff.jpg


In Zho's model it's possible an avatar could never be hit by a mobs, essentially making faps and armor useless. From many ubers with these buffs, I doubt the application of this model.


PVP rules

There is a thread somewhere looking at this.

Essentially,
Hit %=100+(Hit+profession-Evader_profession)

With Zho/Elis observations, this rule holds true if we apply a flat benefit to Evader/Dodger/Jammer profession:

Rubio
Unbuffed Hit%=100+62-32.75=129% (observed: 100%)
Buffed hit%=100+62-32.75*1.2=122% (observed: 100%)

Dominax
Unbuffed Hit%=100+29.98-39.55=90% (observed: 93%)
Buffed hit%=100+29.98-47.46*1.2=83% (observed: 85%)

More data will make it clearer. Best test scenario would be a mob that hits you ALMOST all of the time (to eliminate a MA trick wherethe mob hit level plays a role/is extended past 100 such that 100/(1+buff)>100).

Melee Phasms or PVP Hogglo Olds/providers will probably do the trick for a control for ~40Evader
Click to expand...

I see what you are saying. So yeah something that hits basically about 100% of the time would be the right way to test the boundary case and would show which model is appropriate!
 
The problem with testing with a large mob are 1) not sure if 100% hit exists, iirc there are always at least a small number of evades and 2) lag; when you run up to the mob and there is a small delay before it hits you, was there two attacks or one attack with lag? And there has been a lot of lag lately, not good for testing.
 
Xen said:
The problem with testing with a large mob are 1) not sure if 100% hit exists, iirc there are always at least a small number of evades and 2) lag; when you run up to the mob and there is a small delay before it hits you, was there two attacks or one attack with lag? And there has been a lot of lag lately, not good for testing.
Click to expand...
The same data you provided for maffs would be enough to get an idea. 1000s of attacks get measured in that way. (L) armor comparison would give the purest results (since currently UL protection , and hence decay, lessens over time). Compairons of armor costs 700-1000 ped of hunting spiders, ND dragons, or even baby trox would be enough.

Might even be able to dig up the old data in JimmyB's thread as it probably hasn't changed.
 
Xen said:
The problem with testing with a large mob are 1) not sure if 100% hit exists, iirc there are always at least a small number of evades and 2) lag; when you run up to the mob and there is a small delay before it hits you, was there two attacks or one attack with lag? And there has been a lot of lag lately, not good for testing.
Click to expand...

That is what frustrates me about this. I want to test this and Im happy to stand there getting hit but you don't get you OWN evade messages. Only way to be certain is through pvp. MA needs to log that as well, so we know because we all know full well we can't rely on the animations. Some mobs instantly hit you within hit range and some don't seem to figure it out. The only way to know for sure is to get messages saying you evaded. :mad:
 
Immortal said:
The same data you provided for maffs would be enough to get an idea. 1000s of attacks get measured in that way. (L) armor comparison would give the purest results (since currently UL protection , and hence decay, lessens over time). Compairons of armor costs 700-1000 ped of hunting spiders, ND dragons, or even baby trox would be enough.

Might even be able to dig up the old data in JimmyB's thread as it probably hasn't changed.
Click to expand...

I meant if I want to record the result of each attack.
 
Xen said:
I meant if I want to record the result of each attack.
Click to expand...
In that case I might hunt as normal, and record the number of mob_hits_on_you vs shots_you_fired by looking at your battle log. If you're firing at an easily measured rate (60 or close to it e.g. 55*1.1~60) you'll get an idea of the average number of attacks per mob.
The methodology I would use is:

Tag with low dmg
Wait till mob reaches you (and has stopped moving)
Start firing with main.
record N mob hits vs N shots fired/evaded

Alternatively, always move in melee range/mob range before firing. as do the same as above
 
Eli said:
Yeah, I think we considered that as well and know that PvP and PvE is going to be very different but I think the biggest key here is that if you weren't going to evade/dodge ANY hits at all without the ring, you aren't going to evade or dodge them with a right either. It's not a flat benefit.
Click to expand...

Im saying its two different mechanisms and should imho be treated as two different mechanisms and not the absolute functionality for the rings.
 
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