Return penalty for using crit buffs

Jhereg said:

CLD is a high risk investment. You are basically buying stock in MA and hoping MA doesn't go under. If you think somehow this is "smart" and guaranteed profit, well..I've got a bridge to sell too...

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wizz said:

Yes, it was a high risk investment. As are items like rings or guns.
Hence I said, don't invest if you can't afford or don't want to lose it.

But at least for me it has been a nice way to profit. As were the items for some grinders.

But if items got nerfed to prevent guaranteed profit, should CLDs not get nerfed?
I guess not as that would hurt the entire playerbase, while loot 2.0 only hurted the lucky few.

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Me Really Never said:

and that exactly is the problem. people throw huge chunks of money in here into gear and expect to make money off of it. they expect other players to pay for them because they got money. they expect it to be like in the real world, where money easily makes you more money.
Ummm istn this RCE game(REAL CASH)??
What u said saunded like "I drive old car what consumes lots of gas,but that guy bought an nice new Volvo,or even holly crap electric vehicle,why those "rich" ppl should pay less for road expenses ?"
Its REAL cash game,we come to EU,we put or money on the table,and we play for it with each other,thats how it should be right? IRL we play that game on daily base,making business,working and making careers,right? In case of business it is essential to have best equipment or technology to compete with other players,right? So why in EU its should be different,and all tools no matter how good or bad they are, is equal? (keep in mind its REAL cash we are talking now) Same goes for working,ppl with better skills/knowledge are paid better right?
With that said i will wanna admit im strongly against possibility someone is making TT profit in EU just because of items what he/she is using!!!
But those items(buff items in case of this tread) should give some edge over other players,lets say(just for example) if u run around with decent ring+scope+buffed weapon u should get not 97% (MA stated that silly number) but 99%. Why? Because its REAL cash game and so things works IRL

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Me Really Never said:

yeah you missed what i wanted to say. higher dpp buys you more tickets to get better MU stuff for the same price a low dpp weapon does.
an example: qaffaz on toulan drop exactly one qaffaz hide on basically every kill. so when you get enough peds to kill 1000 of those with a high dpp weapon then u get about 970 of those hides. the same amount of money would just let you kill maybe 900 or less with a low dpp weapon meaning you would only get maybe 875 hides for the same amount of money. that means with the high dpp weapon you get more MU value per money used. of course this doesnt apply to every mob. but thats the point. u got to figure out where to play your odds right and dont just hunt anything and then wonder why it sucks. play smart.

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Me Really Never said:

and that exactly is the problem. people throw huge chunks of money in here into gear and expect to make money off of it. they expect other players to pay for them because they got money. they expect it to be like in the real world, where money easily makes you more money. but as in the real world this works here as well. just not with the main professions that easily (anymore).
the times with just brainlessly throwing money into the game and hoping that other players will cover for that bullshit are over. and those people that quit over this... well its good that they are gone.

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Eli said:

Again, the only significant point here is higher DPP lets your stretch your hunts out, but has no bearing on your return over time other than that small faction of a fraction (7% * efficiency). That is all. It helps if you don't have a decent sized bankroll. But that begs the question why are you hunting out of the bounds of your bankroll.

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Eli said:

Your arguments and comparison shows some serious bias. Money doesn't easily make you more money, but it certainly helps and you make that sound like its always evil or something. Yes, to get somewhere, people need funding, any venture needs capital somehow.

People invested in gear and yes they expect to make it back. I fail to see the issue there. They invested in items that had a value based on what that item's behavior was at the time. When MA makes a sweeping change like this that obliterates the value and behavior of these investments overnight, do you really blame the investors? For a moment take the bias from your views, try really hard.

If you go out and buy a car and the manufacturer markets that engine to last 100k miles so you can drive a taxi and make money, and tomorrow the manufacturer says, "Nope, actually, the engine only lasts 50k now," is that your fault? Should you have not bought the car? Not "thrown your money away" so you can "make more money"?

Come on.

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Me Really Never said:

is the taxi a game? and to be honest, people lie all the fucking time in business. so the 100k miles are just a marketing gag while in fact this would only work in a special controlled environment and not in reality. thats why there is such a huge problem with german car manufacturers right now.

and to everyone comparing this to the real world, thinking that real world laws apply here: if that would be the case, pirates would need to be sent to jail as only because it is possible doesnt make it legal. but this is a game and has a different set of laws that apply. especially as its a controlled environment. controlled by MA.

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Is project entropia just another internet game? No, it isn't. Its a virtual universe. Stop and think about that phrase for a moment. Virtual Universe. What does that mean exactly? ...

If you dare, you must undertake many challenges to prosper, but the opportunities will be endless.

This is the first time ever, that a virtual environment completely melds in the real world.

The econonmy on earth seamlessly links with the economy on calypso, making your money valid on both worlds.

The wonder of this universe, is the ability to make real money, a lot of money.

Have you ever heard that before, the ability to make real money by participating in an online virtual universe.

The virtual universe works like the real world in many ways.

Project Entropia is a world of unlimited opportunities and brings a new perspective to online entertainment.

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Me Really Never said:

dude... ill explain it to you once again using the example i stated above. but this is the last time now.
one hunter gets 970 hides and one gets 875 hides and both hunters needed 1k peds (just an example) and we assume the hides have a tt of 5 pec and a MU of 200% then hunter A has MU value only through hides of 48,5 ped or 4,85% of his input. Hunter B with low dpp only managed to acquire 875 hides on 1k peds which nets MU value of 43,75 ped or 4,375% of his input. thats a difference of roughly 0,5% in added MU value because of high dpp. sure these are no real numbers but i think you get what im trying to show. more MU in less money ALLWAYS is an advantage, no matter how big your sample size.

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Me Really Never said:

dude... ill explain it to you once again using the example i stated above. but this is the last time now.
one hunter gets 970 hides and one gets 875 hides and both hunters needed 1k peds (just an example) and we assume the hides have a tt of 5 pec and a MU of 200% then hunter A has MU value only through hides of 48,5 ped or 4,85% of his input. Hunter B with low dpp only managed to acquire 875 hides on 1k peds which nets MU value of 43,75 ped or 4,375% of his input. thats a difference of roughly 0,5% in added MU value because of high dpp. sure these are no real numbers but i think you get what im trying to show. more MU in less money ALLWAYS is an advantage, no matter how big your sample size.

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Eli said:

It literally does not matter who kills more mobs. You're still in the old system. I'm trying to bring you into the light but you don't even want to get out of your chair and I'm not going to drag you because I CBA.

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Detritus said:

You are assuming that there's a completely linear relationship between DPP and loot, that is to say that two people hunting the same mob at different DPP would get proportionally the same loot only the higher DPP player would get more of it for the same ped spend. This is simply not true.

It's already been demonstrated that lower DPP gives bigger loot due to the added cost (bigger loot, not better returns). At some threshold this becomes just shrapnel, but there's still a range of DPP per mob that will give item drops, such as hides.

So using the very example you gave, what if hunter B (the lower DPP) was still in the threshold to get hides (which you claim he is in your example), but his cost of kill is so much greater than hunter A that he's getting say 15% more hides from his bigger loot. This would actually give him 1006 hides, putting him ahead of hunter A, even though he has lower DPP.

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Me Really Never said:

im nto assuming that there is a direct correlation between actual cost to kill (low or high dpp).. thats what MA even stated in this thread. and it is very, very easy to test. not much peds needed to do this. if the people would actually stop complaining and play the goddamn game and do their fucking tests they maybe wouldnt be surprised why they are doing shitty... if u dont believe anything that people say who did tests than go out and do your fucking own tests. thats pretty much the last advice that i can give. or lets better say, the last advice that im willing to give.

and on a side note: im doing great. better than before. im over 100% tt return and i do cycle 50k+ a month.

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Me Really Never said:

jesus christ what the hell is wrong with you? dont you understand that 4.8% is more than 4.35% (fictional numbers)??? i mean what more can i do? you think you understand maths but you obviously dont.
ill tell you a secret: 5% is more tjhan 4%. 5% of 1k ped is more than 4$ of 1k peds. 5% of 10k peds are more than 4% of 10k peds. 5% of unlimited peds are more than 4% of unlimited peds (actually this one is technically not entirely correct but i hope you get the point...)

i mean you ALLWAYS have a limited, finite number of peds. and if you get 1% or 2 % more MU out those finite amount of peds then you are making more money than if you dont. YOU NEED TO APPLY YOUR FUCKING THEORY ON THE ACTUAL GAME AND DONT TRY TO APPLY IT ON UNLIMITED NUMBERS... ffs.
i mean u dont even have an argument against it. you just say i dont get loot 2.0 but let me assure you. ive done more and better tests than you have done and i certainly do understand the difference between 1.0 and 2.0 a lot better than u might think.

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Detritus said:

Yes exactly, cost to kill affects loot, that's literally what everyone has been trying to explain to you, and why your assumptions are wrong. I even showed you why using your own example. Your theory only works if cost to kill DOESN'T affect loot, e.g. the old system where higher DPP gave you more bang for your buck. Just stop and think about it for a minute before going off on another temper tantrum.


I used to have a computer science professor that said "stupid is when your ego eats up your IQ".

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Eli said:

I think, through all that shouting and anger I see something about loot composition and MU of said composition... except there's the trouble of increasing dpp with crit buff decreases cost to kill which decreases tt return and the tt of said composition. We're mincing fractions of percents now. And again, while I'm not saying crit buffs are bad, I'm saying their value has been severely nerfed. I see you understood what we were saying yesterday and that's good at least. I think. You just seem so adamant that the system as it is right now is flawless. I don't want to rock that boat tbh.

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Me Really Never said:

and you still do know that there are mobs that drop just 1 piece of the wanted unit per kill, right? so the amount of kills per money matters and not the cost per kill. or can you explain me, where this is wrong?
you always seem to think that when you have less dpp and higher loot per mob that suddenly the MU material will be more as well. but this is simply not true for many cases.

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Eli said:

I think this particular argument is turning into smaller and smaller circles until its value is as diminished as the crit buffs. At the end of the day, the fact is MA sold items that worked a certain way. They continued to sell those items for years without change. Players adapted as they have many times before. And just has MA has, time and time before, they turned around and nerfed things into the ground after huge sums of money have been spent in good faith.

I have no idea why people have any faith in items anymore. This is like the fourth time?

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Me Really Never said:

and you still do know that there are mobs that drop just 1 piece of the wanted unit per kill, right? so the amount of kills per money matters and not the cost per kill. or can you explain me, where this is wrong?
you always seem to think that when you have less dpp and higher loot per mob that suddenly the MU material will be more as well. but this is simply not true for many cases.

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Detritus said:

Actually I clearly said that it would have to be within a specific range, and I gave you an example where it was possible. I never said it was "always true".


Even if the mob has been proven to only drop 1 of a given stackable per kill, you would need to demonstrate that you get the same number of drops per X number of kills, regardless of DPP. Maybe this would be a good experiment.

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Me Really Never said:

an example: qaffaz on toulan drop exactly one qaffaz hide on basically every kill. so when you get enough peds to kill 1000 of those with a high dpp weapon then u get about 970 of those hides. the same amount of money would just let you kill maybe 900 or less with a low dpp weapon meaning you would only get maybe 875 hides for the same amount of money. that means with the high dpp weapon you get more MU value per money used. of course this doesnt apply to every mob. but thats the point. u got to figure out where to play your odds right and dont just hunt anything and then wonder why it sucks. play smart.

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Kerham said:

In theory it sounds great, but this qaffaz example, if is true, would be the exception (who buys those hides anyway?). I rarely if ever saw drops to be related to number of kills. Usually is on time waves. In which situation, higher DPP means less drops per ped spent. (considering the situation in which tt of MU item is higher than cost to kill).

But this is a side discussion.

Main discussion, applied to MU, is that there is no MU ingame to cover losses over a certain treshold. And my problem is that for me (maybe I am this shining exception, who knows) high efficiency combo, close to 70 eff, on as I said not longtooth, but a 500hp mob yelded TT return lower than 90% on aprox 4,5k ped spent. More specifically, I had when I left the spawn a tt loss of 540 peds. In order to pay off the tt loss and the MU of guns (the latter not being such a big issue though), I would have needed 6 drops of an item, (L), with a tt of circa 30 ped. It didn't happened not even once. On the very same mob the only time I ever looted that (otherwise a quite common item, not some uber rare unheard of thingie) was when I killed a few accidentally with 56 efficiency. An ul unimprovable item with, by comparison to ArMatrix guns, bullshit economy. Which item never let me down and on tens of K ped rolled with it, it never had the volatility and the tt losses I had with ArMatrix. It doesn't make sense.

To express it otherwise, maybe the above seems whining: I don't believe that higher efficiency should mean higher volatility. This is my main point of concern, coupled with the possiblity that higher efficiency might mean missing certain high multiplier, which would be necessary to compensate tt loss.

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Me Really Never said:

wouldnt it be even more important to hunt as cheaply as possible when items drop in waves? i mean if we assume you hunt caperons all day long without break and you are aiming for shrooms. now with a low dpp weapon u might need to run through 2k peds of ammo between waves while you only need 1.5k peds with a high dpp weapon.
now the return % we assume is for both versions 97%. but 3% loss on 2k peds is more loss than 3% loss on 1.5k peds. and that means that the MU makes up more % of your total return when having high dpp

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Dennis blighter said:

I think critical hits should count as double or 1.5 X loot...

or it should be based on damage , not the cost of that damage.. they said crits dont effect loot, therefor when you crit, you will get less loot from that mob, but it also costed less.... but i think the issue is... crits provide no benefit to loot, it actually simply reduces the amount of loot you get because the cost to kill goes down as you get "free" damage.

in that sense, getting a critical hit has no benefit in my opinion atm.

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• reaching the skill bonus based on a mob's danger level that you receive upon killing the mob for less ped spent
• reducing the amount of ped involved in reaching the loot event which decreases your volatility/increases the amount of "chances" you have of getting something good from the mob's loot table
• reducing amount of cost/cycle involved in completing a hunting challenge
• increasing your dps

Eli said:

You're using these very specific mobs for your arguments and then kvetch about how our "endless ped card" data is unrealistic. Is everyone going to hunt Caperons? Or Marcimex? Or whatever other mid level mob that drops extremely high MU, low TT items? That's a tiny fraction of the mob possibilities out there and totally unrealistic.

Lowering cost doesn't lower the TT of items you loot. Now, the idea is that you will see a general leveling out of TT over time, but imagine your exact scenario. You have an extremely high dpp and killing a mob that loots a 1ped item frequently. But your kill cost is so low that your return, reflecting that kill cost, is often about a ped or less.

The system will level your loot out, sure. Your average loots are lower but you'll see a few bigger loots in between to even our your overall return. Except you still only get one of that item, when the system DOES level you out. How is that "working as intended"?

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Me Really Never said:

just because the tt profit is suddenly gone for many ubers and they cry like little girls everywhere doesnt mean that the system is broken, especially when its working for the majority of medium players

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