Return penalty for using crit buffs

girtsn

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Girts Smilgs Niedra
You have been introducing buffs and stacking of buffs, then actively marketing and selling the crit buffs over the last several years in strongboxes, event prizes and quests. People have been spending fortunes to acquire and stack the best of them.

Of course there was one historically introduced crucial stacking issue namely limited-unlimited armor EST which was used to the full extent causing best buff stackers to get consistent tt returns of 105% +. It was always apparent this was completely outbalanced
1. comparing to mk2 sight which decays and gives 3x less the buff then the never ending armor if used in the wrong way
2. with the normal stacking, it was not possible / easy to get such a tt% surplus, the advantage of 60% crit damage is just out of any balance
3. indirectly confirmed by stopping to offer new sets to drop in the token npc's

So what did you do to "fix" this? It seems you introduced a tt return penalty for using crit buffs. This seems apparent from the mass sales of crit items by ppl who were swearing to never sell them even for cosmic prices just before, and from current stats of others and myself - after acquiring the easter 2016 ring (1.8fb and 8% crit% extra) my tt return went from 94% to 92%. Suppose the actual implementation is more complex, but this is how it looks like, around 1% tt return less for one fb or correspomding crit%.

Consequences of this "fix"?
0. you clearly showed that dmg/pec doesn't mean a lot anymore as related to returns (as it can be changed independently), which was an urban legend and a major selling point for high dpp equipment
1. the majority of the tt profiters just stopped playing and sold assets
2. people that you sold the buffs to over the last years have lost trust in buying items that you advertise
3. the ones already on 95% tt return before like me got double-screwed, by tt return dropping by additional 3-5% (and yea support is good with dark humor in response to my claim that 92% is quite far from the loot 2.0 statisticians claimed 97% for large turnovers:
Just as a note, +/-5% discrepancy from a listed number is however a quite close number in that aspect
)
Honestly?
You clearly don't seem/want to understand what a cut-down of 5% tt return as done to me means for high turnover. 400000 per month turnover which previously had 97% tt return = 12000 peds to recover from MU which is already close to impossible. With 92% that makes 32000 peds - which is indeed completely impossible.
4. the ones recently acquiring recent prizes / quest items that include a crit buff got double-screwed as well as they don't have a real choice to switch - the price of the item is devaluated and the buff cannot be disabled.

So why did you play with such a delicate balance as returns based on buffs instead of nerfing the one buff that was the actual issue? And/or introducing the already hinted decay of rings? Could you please do something to restore any value to the buff items that you are still selling in strongboxes among other things?

Of course I will get a shitstorm about being the one to bring this nerf in effect. But to be clear, I did not introduce the imbalance just highlighted it's existence. And never exploited it myself. Other than that, let it come - clearly the forum trolls love me :D

P.S. Obviously this is whining - but imho nobody deserves a long term tt return of 92%. It is not a game but milking pure and simple.

Anyway, actual feedback from MA wanted on these points:
  • stats and behavior of high turnover hunting indicate that crit buffs lower the tt return % and point out that the loot 2.0 averages for high turnover have a major deviation in real application cases (97% vs 92%) - why? - and "they should not" is not an answer
  • explain the scammy nature of having sold and still selling crit buffs and then nullifying their dpp effects / or even screwing them beyond null
  • why when returns don't work for you, you are on your own - as supposedly the return system knows best and is bug free - the fact that there are crazy consistent losses does not matter
  • why did not go the hinted way of introducing decay for the rings?
  • why crit buff items did not get included in the efficiency calculation?
  • why imk2 got special treatment on loot 2.0 in terms of efficiency while newer thus more relevant and many times more expensive items got nullified?
  • why every unlimited buff had to be terminated if the main imbalance was a limited armor introduced before buff stacking?
 
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I see Your point. Profit is there but not in TT anymore - loot composition is key.
 
Tell that to all those shooting in the current eomon event - again advertised by MA and having practically no MU whatsoever. And yea, Smilgs looted 2 nice items - suppose it is the loot system trying to compensate for 89% tt return at that point. Ironically it also illustrates for second year in row that going after higher maturities (stalkers in particular) has no reward whatsoever.

The MU to the rescue argument can probably be applied to mini-activities not high turnover - so not to MA's main audience. And in any case, it is taking money from other players as long they are willing to pay.

As mentioned before in another thread, it all goes in circles, not so long ago re-sellers and high MU were the bloodsuckers of the game - MA nerfed, now high tt return avatars are the bloodsuckers of the game - MA nerfed.
MU to the rescue anyone?
I see Your point. Profit is there but not in TT anymore - loot composition is key.
 
Well, grinding is not a point at the moment, playing smart is what you need to do at the moment, MindArk cant make all happy.

Grinding blind tt mobs will bring you loss

But i agree that in rc game "good" items should improve loog or quality of gameplay.

//mg
 
MA & planet partners should stop marketing events like eomons as they are doing the opposite of making people happy with it. Same with explosives crafting. Of course MA wants more turnover - but then the criteria to be successful should not be nerfed inconsistently.

Anyway the main point of the post is that they seem to with one hand reduce return for the same items they have been actively marketing and selling over the last years and still continue to sell with the other hand.
It is quite a contradiction.

Well, grinding is not a point at the moment, playing smart is what you need to do at the moment, MindArk cant make all happy.
Grinding blind tt mobs will bring you loss
But i agree that in rc game "good" items should improve loog or quality of gameplay.
 
I agree with OP in many points.

+ it doens't bring confidence in game to change item behaviour.

What if tomorrow all the UL weapon have their dmg or speed / 2 in order to promote L weapons ?
 
Why? Because a broad base of small customers is healthier for a business than a small number of "whales", as they are called in the game industry's vernacular.

There only ever was a small group of players who could achieve the realm of TT profit purely through gear. It can't function any other way, since a proliferation of these items would only lead to diluting the profits. The amount available for distribution is determined by the overall income stream.

For the majority who can't commit a fortune to muscle their way into this exclusive club, knowing that they are the ones paying for this means utter frustration and certainly a high number of dropouts. As I read it, the business decision was to sacrifice the overpriviledged for a hopefully better retention rate. Why they let it get this far in the past - maybe they thought that these top players become attractors, which they are indeed, but only superficially until you figure out what the price for that is.

The biggest losses are yet to occur in the markup of those items. If they don't, maybe the theory is wrong and only the ways to make them pay off have changed. Will be interesting to see who turns out a winner. My guess is, the goal is actually a better community. Envy can be a driving force, but too much of it can be a turn-off.
 
Nobody should ever TT profit (keyword "TT"), and since MA is not a charity the change was necessary.

You could have ridden the crit-buff wave like everybody else but decided to start a personal crusade against it, you got what you wanted and now it feels like you are on another crusade for the opposite cause. Make up your mind :)

I've read the migration event page and there is no mention of profit or returns. Buff stacking and mindless grinding will get you nowhere now more than ever, if eomon have shit MU maybe stop hunting them.

I hope your loot improves and you can enjoy the game again, nothing personal, but cut the BS please.
 
Well, grinding is not a point at the moment, playing smart is what you need to do at the moment, MindArk cant make all happy.

Grinding blind tt mobs will bring you loss

But i agree that in rc game "good" items should improve loog or quality of gameplay.

//mg

Making grinding bad, in the world's most grind-y game, is surely a bad thing?
 
* 92% tt return with my items and my skills in untaxed MA advertised event is BS
* having to throw away the buff items that they are still actively advertising & selling is even more of BS
* the "fix" for crit% in current form is BS

and I never decided to start a personal crusade just try to change my stats to see if I could do better
also cut the troll, this is quite an offtopic - i am not asking for a loot 2.0 revert as that would never happen and the imbalance has to be fixed. but there must be a better way to do it.

Nobody should ever TT profit (keyword "TT"), and since MA is not a charity the change was necessary.
You could have ridden the crit-buff wave like everybody else but decided to start a personal crusade against it, you got what you wanted and now it feels like you are on another crusade for the opposite cause. Make up your mind
I've read the migration event page and there is no mention of profit or returns. Buff stacking and mindless grinding will get you nowhere now more than ever, if eomon have shit MU maybe stop hunting them.
I hope your loot improves and you can enjoy the game again, nothing personal, but cut the BS please.
 
Just to be clear, I am not opposed to loot 2.0 as such - just the part on how crit buff nerf has been implemented. Getting new players and retaining them is their biggest challenge, anything to support that. But the crit buff "fix" won't help that.
Why? Because a broad base of small customers is healthier for a business than a small number of "whales", as they are called in the game industry's vernacular.
 
Making grinding bad, in the world's most grind-y game, is surely a bad thing?

Not to mention they themselves told us that they plan to reward grinders :D
2.0 was too drastic change way too soon (or way too fast). Grinders (da chosen TT profiteers) would have been fine with 3-5% less TT returns, but what 2.0 brought... might have just killed the game (unless there are some more really significant changes coming). Because not only the "top 2%" have been reporting ubershiet returns. I have heard several complaints about low/mid lvl ppl (not tt profiteers) that they cannot keep hunting like they used to. So far we could tt profit and make some additional MU. Now TT profit is gone and MU is noway in hell can cover that.

EDIT: Also fucking up millions of peds investments in a swift move causes to lose trust as Smilgs wrote.
 
girtns crying before loot 2.0 that EST is unbalanced and needs to be nerfed.
MA nerfs it cos girtsn was crying like a baby.
After the nerf girtsn is still not happy and is crying even louder... this is just ridicuolous.

have you ever thought about trying to play smart? trying not to grind hundred trillion same mobs over and over for the same tt shit?
have you not seen ANY EVENT EVER that has only bullshit loot and tt return?
MA advertises these events and they usually pay out an ATH. guess who pays for that? hunting event mobs always was and always will be the stupidest thing someone can do. and yet so many people do it and complain all the fucking time...

the loot return is now closer to actual cost to kill. meaning lots of crit dmg and chance will give you less average return BUT it lets you cycle your peds longer. and as it always has been you need the multis to get good returns. you can have 50% crit chancd and 100% crit damage but when you dont hit a single multi you still wont profit.

when you hunt longer with the same budget it means that your chance of profitting is higher. but its not 100% like it was before. now the advantage of crit items is as it shouild have been from the start.
also i really like the overkilling part of loot 2.0. best change ever.
 
I agree, i'm a middle players with a decent maxed UL Gear.
MA said 2.0 will decrease cost of the game. As i saw by my self, you can't still play more than a week with 300$ if you are a grinder. I don't say you have to profit TT, but the cost for play is very high (+investment needed for play).
 
Why? Because a broad base of small customers is healthier for a business than a small number of "whales", as they are called in the game industry's vernacular.

There only ever was a small group of players who could achieve the realm of TT profit purely through gear. It can't function any other way, since a proliferation of these items would only lead to diluting the profits. The amount available for distribution is determined by the overall income stream.

For the majority who can't commit a fortune to muscle their way into this exclusive club, knowing that they are the ones paying for this means utter frustration and certainly a high number of dropouts. As I read it, the business decision was to sacrifice the overpriviledged for a hopefully better retention rate. Why they let it get this far in the past - maybe they thought that these top players become attractors, which they are indeed, but only superficially until you figure out what the price for that is.

The biggest losses are yet to occur in the markup of those items. If they don't, maybe the theory is wrong and only the ways to make them pay off have changed. Will be interesting to see who turns out a winner. My guess is, the goal is actually a better community. Envy can be a driving force, but too much of it can be a turn-off.

this is probably in line with ma thinking

Just to be clear, I am not opposed to loot 2.0 as such - just the part on how crit buff nerf has been implemented. Getting new players and retaining them is their biggest challenge, anything to support that. But the crit buff "fix" won't help that.

however, i have to agree with Smilgs this has been badly handled. Erosion of trust and treating most valued players (valued due to high spending) extremely badly is poor conduct. It's one of the bigger mismanagement in the history of the game no matter how players on here sugar coat it and what elaborate excuses are served up.
 
So does this means now the crit and dmg buff are some drawbacks with no benefits ?






meaning lots of crit dmg and chance will give you less average return BUT it lets you cycle your peds longer.

?? To me less return means your ped are gone faster.
 
give it 6 months to 2 years and balancing manager will step in and sway the other way... Entropia is Dynamic, and as soon as you get a feel for things and how it works, they can, and will change it... Been that way for years... Old School folks bitched when L and Sib came out. Folks bitched when Tiers came out. Folks bitch now with Loot 2.0 (technically 3.0 imho since I consider the change when a bunch of crap when up in HA from 1/10 to 5/10 overnight to be 2.0...)...

Mindark always can and always will fuck with the way things are after customers buy em. They've done that since the start. Nerf here, estate not working for over a year there, nerf over there.... Adapt or die/quit. Its the way this game is.

If things were unbalanced and giving certain folks an unfair advantage, which seems to be what you are grumbling about, it was the balancing teams job to fix it. They did. When more folks start logging in annually in Fall and number of support tickets increase, Mindark will put it on the bottom of the to do list for the balancing manager to re-balance it all, so rebalance will come 1.5-5 years later... When devs actually take the time to read the support tickets they were forwarded at some point in time.
 
So does this means now the crit and dmg buff are some drawbacks with no benefits ?

?? To me less return means your ped are gone faster.

no, they grant you cheaper kills which allows you to generate more loot events for the same cost on average, according to MA grants better loot composition on average, increases dps, and most likely has a slight increase on average return rate, although not like before at all.

if you grind a lot you will pretty quickly see that a kill where you have crit multiple times will grant less loot on average than a kill where you did not crit, since the loot granted after a kill is more than ever tied to the costs you incurred creating the loot event.
 
It's complete bullshit that MA introduced these boxes, then changed the way loot worked.
It's also complete bullshit they released an aweome armor, fap and spaceship and set their own prices.

The noobs who designed the buff algorithm just thought they were increasing dps and not dpp. Hence why sokolade could make 250k last year, but not a dime after loot 2.0 (relatively speaking).

And now all those people who bought 50000peds of buffs are fucked. Completely and utterly fucked.
 
You asked and MA gave.

This is what so many players asked for. Yes, ground zero of this was the EST sets. Players threw every dramatic catchphrase and word they could into the argument, calling it's use an exploit and players who had invested in the sets abusers.

When arguments like that started to rise, it really didn't leave any options; a change had to happen. But if you want to rock the boat you better be ready for it to flip.

MA couldn't just take the set away. Then who's to say they won't just take any number of items away from players at a different day. Who would buy things anymore? Who would invest in ANYTHING over TT? No one.

MA couldn't just nerf the EST sets. They said, long ago, they would not change items properties.

MA couldn't nerf all EST mobs, that would span a lot of mobs and some PP mobs. They would piss even more people off. Nothing would be single damage, nothing would move slowly. Ever.

So they applied a global nerf. One that affects everyone, big and small. This is what the players asked for.
 
I think Loot 2.0 was simple about nerfing crit buffs.
 
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Its becoming clearer that Loot 2.0 was simple about nerfing crit buffs, the rest of the minor changes were just a red herring to obfuscate the nerf.

It was also about promoting new ArMatrix and rendering anything unlimited with an eco rating less than 60% TT food. Unless you can take an item to mid 60%+ eco rating with amps at mid level.

My view is attachments have value now, not any weapons. Especially if MA intends to introduce 70% eco gear unamped.

I still don't trust the system for grinding on mid level items whatever MA bring in, Been like that for me for the a last 2+ years.

However the sky will never fall, because MA are God in their digital world and they can turn the sun on or off at their desire to lure people back into the game.

Rick
 
...

P.S. Obviously this is whining - but imho nobody deserves a long term tt return of 92%. It is not a game but milking pure and simple.

Lol, welcome to the mortal club of players.
Like 99% of the other players who never profited before but are still playing for over a decade.

We're already used to being milked, you apparently are not.

Also, you proved it has nothing to do with loot 2.0 as you already losing since 2016, before loot 2.0.

And as others have said, lay of those eomon!
I made the same mistake on the longtooth. Just useless peddrains like any other event mob (as many others have already stated). Only uber loots can make it worthwile, but those are only for the lucky few.



... I'm sure many players will never consider depositing a large sum again due to MA's outright irresponsibility in relation to the wellbeing of players investments. ...

nah, just another temporary setback for some players. Sky wont fall.
Mankind has the strongest ability to adept to any situation of all creatures on this planet.
Entropia has proved that year after year of whining and rage quitting people ;)
 
July tt return - 113%

So what now?
 
You put too much emphasis on EST armor, it was just another buff that increased crit damage ("free damage"). It didn't have much more affect than adding an imp ares. Mod Viceroy armor has more effect but oddly is not mentioned even though it can also be used without taking decay...
 
July tt return - 113%

So what now?

Well, I would need more information. What were previous months returns, is this a makeup for previous tt losses? Did you get an unusually large tt loot in July? What was your setup? Were you hunting shared loot a lot?
 
You put too much emphasis on EST armor, it was just another buff that increased crit damage ("free damage"). It didn't have much more affect than adding an imp ares. Mod Viceroy armor has more effect but oddly is not mentioned even though it can also be used without taking decay...

My understanding is base crit hit % is 2%, which means, with no improved ares, the EST represents a 1.2% increase in damage output for same cost.

An improved ares proves an extra 8% increased crit damage and .6% focused blows. Without EST, this is a 0.84% increased damage output for same cost.

However, if you combine EST with the imp ares, the effect of the EST is amplified, and you get 2.42% inproved damage output for same cost, which is a 1.6% increase over just an improved ares. This was insanely good in the old system.

I think....

Edit: I think my base crit rate is not quite right. Seems Entropiawiki has it set around 1.5% instead of 2%...could have sworn it was 2% before 0.0
 
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My understanding is base crit hit % is 2%, which means, with no improved ares, the EST represents a 1.2% increase in damage output for same cost.

An improved ares proves an extra 8% increased crit damage and .6% focused blows. Without EST, this is a 0.84% increased damage output for same cost.

However, if you combine EST with the imp ares, the effect of the EST is amplified, and you get 2.42% inproved damage output for same cost, which is a 1.6% increase over just an improved ares. This was insanely good in the old system.

I think....

I just used the Weapon Compare V2 on entropedia. I put 60% crit size buff on a weapon, and to get an equivalent eco I added .6% crit rate in another window on the same weapon.

Anyway, the issue was the stacking, not so much the armor itself. But you could also stack rings/sights/scopes/enhancers/pills so to me this was just another item.
 
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