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Return penalty for using crit buffs

Jhereg said:
girts ped card -> soko's ped card? :eyecrazy::eyecrazy:

Will next month be soko's ped card -> girts ped card??
Click to expand...

No no don't be silly, let's just settle this, next month will be soko's ped card -> eli's ped card <- girts ped card

:tongue2:
 
Agree 100 % with op. I had the Best gear in game with more than 3,7-3,8 dpp. After 2.0... now i don't trust in the game stats shown anymore and thus sold out and play other games instead. Too bad. Loved this game. May return but really cant see myself trusting in Big investments anytime soon.

Sbi
 
Xen said:
I just used the Weapon Compare V2 on entropedia. I put 60% crit size buff on a weapon, and to get an equivalent eco I added .6% crit rate in another window on the same weapon.

Anyway, the issue was the stacking, not so much the armor itself. But you could also stack rings/sights/scopes/enhancers/pills so to me this was just another item.
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It was also extremely effect with accuracy enhancers before people caught on and the enh prices shot through the roof before 2.0 :D
 
math
the effect of 60% without decay can not be compared to anything else when stacking with fb, it's dpp impact is just another league
from my buff calculation sheet with viridian:
* getting fb from 1% to 5% (maxed) + 22% crit% gives a dpp increase of 5.4%
* on top adding 60% crit from est doubles the dpp increase from the 5.4% to 10.7%
so gain from mod viceroy assuming no decay is ~ 1.05%. gain from est is ~ 5.3% if stacking with maxed fb

Xen said:
You put too much emphasis on EST armor, it was just another buff that increased crit damage ("free damage"). It didn't have much more affect than adding an imp ares. Mod Viceroy armor has more effect but oddly is not mentioned even though it can also be used without taking decay...
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in any case, since my experience showed exactly this - isn't there something just plainly wrong when adding 1.8% fb and 8% crit dmg with no decay gets you from 94% tt to 92% tt?
 
When I ran my study, I saw that the tt values in return was proportional to cost, so if you lowered the cost by fb or inc crit dmg, the absolute tt return was lower per mob as well.

But the % should be the same is my assumption.
 
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sbi said:
Agree 100 % with op. I had the Best gear in game with more than 3,7-3,8 dpp. After 2.0... now i don't trust in the game stats shown anymore and thus sold out and play other games instead. Too bad. Loved this game. May return but really cant see myself trusting in Big investments anytime soon.

Sbi
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MA does this quite often, from what I hear. It's a wonder anyone still find the will to invest. This was my second time investing in gear and getting crapped on. I've got better places to put my money in. Games that cost me 20, or 30 dollars that give me 100s of game hours, as opposed to the half a dozen on EU, when you cycle that fast.

I got space next to me on this boat, you can sit in it.
 
assumed the same and thought the extra crit% would at least not hurt
one of my wild(er) theories over the last years has been that my publicly documented successful 2 years led to a nerf of some sorts that was implemented outside of the dpp system (perfectly plausible as this implementation showed) around April 2016, which resulted in my tt return being lowered - kindof supported by my return not changing for the time going without mk2 scope and sight
not saying this is a personal implementation, just something more general that fits my usage criteria
with that cap not removed, current 92% would be a result of the 2 nerfs applied at the same time - which would really suck for me
Jhereg said:
When I ran my study, I saw that the tt values in return was proportional to cost, so if you lowered the cost by fb or inc crit dmg, the absolute tt return was lower per mob as well.
But the % should be the same is my assumption....
Click to expand...
 
So invest in your avatar = lose more? Shouldn't be like that....
 
girtsn said:
assumed the same and thought the extra crit% would at least not hurt
one of my wild(er) theories over the last years has been that my publicly documented successful 2 years led to a nerf of some sorts that was implemented outside of the dpp system (perfectly plausible as this implementation showed) around April 2016, which resulted in my tt return being lowered - kindof supported by my return not changing for the time going without mk2 scope and sight
not saying this is a personal implementation, just something more general that fits my usage criteria
with that cap not removed, current 92% would be a result of the 2 nerfs applied at the same time - which would really suck for me
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Can't believe I'm saying this.

Maybe too little cycled, and the tt return will increase as more is cycled? LOL
 
if this is a pay to win game....

if you have top tier gear.. shouldn't you have a bit of edge??

mob should pay XX.XX ped.... regardless of setup. if you can reduce costs.. shouldn't the mob pay proportionally more than for someone doing 3.1 dpp vs someone doing 2.9 dpp?

And as it is now ... i think that's reversed.. which i find odd.

IF British Petroleum can produce at $27/Barrel of Oil... and a start up in North Dakota needs $34/Barrel to break even.. who is going to make more when cost of oil is $39/barrel ,.... $30/Barrel?

If you have invested time, energy, dollars... shouldn't you be (potentially) rewarded for efficiency? The way it seems now, the more efficient you are, the less you are rewarded with.
 
Gear has an advantage, just not the way it was before (TT profit)

Increased efficiency still improves tt of loot according to MA (how much is not clear).

Decreased cost per mob = more optimal loot, faster completion of iron challenges, etc.
 
Xcessive said:
if this is a pay to win game....

if you have top tier gear.. shouldn't you have a bit of edge??

mob should pay XX.XX ped.... regardless of setup. if you can reduce costs.. shouldn't the mob pay proportionally more than for someone doing 3.1 dpp vs someone doing 2.9 dpp?

And as it is now ... i think that's reversed.. which i find odd.

IF British Petroleum can produce at $27/Barrel of Oil... and a start up in North Dakota needs $34/Barrel to break even.. who is going to make more when cost of oil is $39/barrel ,.... $30/Barrel?

If you have invested time, energy, dollars... shouldn't you be (potentially) rewarded for efficiency? The way it seems now, the more efficient you are, the less you are rewarded with.
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This was previously how it worked, but with gear investments, average cost to kill could be reduced below cost to kill, creating a consistent profit. But to get there you have to invest. But this created many pitchforks. Ultimately the player base spoke out and MA responded.
 
Eli said:
This was previously how it worked, but with gear investments, average cost to kill could be reduced below cost to kill, creating a consistent profit. But to get there you have to invest. But this created many pitchforks. Ultimately the player base spoke out and MA responded.
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so now you have free to play winning, and heavy depo' players on the sidelines...

how does this work?

**edit --> i understand free to play is exaggeration....
 
Xcessive said:
mob should pay XX.XX ped.... regardless of setup. if you can reduce costs.. shouldn't the mob pay proportionally more than for someone doing 3.1 dpp vs someone doing 2.9 dpp?
.
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This is how I think it should be.
a 300 hp mob should pay around 1 ped, regardless if you use a 2dpp gun or a 3dpp gun.

Eli said:
This was previously how it worked, but with gear investments, average cost to kill could be reduced below cost to kill, creating a consistent profit.
Click to expand...

And this is were MA took the wrong turn, to allow the actuall cost to kill to get to far below below the theoretical cost to kill, to "creating a consistent TT profit".

I guess the balancing manager was doing a horrible job there!
 
There is no penalty to loot return percentage from critical hits, critical hits are treated just the same as normal hits in terms of loot. The changes made with 2.0 were not intended to deal with critical hit or critical damage buffs specifically but to modernize the loot system to make it more flexible for future development in several areas.

As mentioned in the Dev notes #11 06-08-2017

"A new Economy rating parameter will be introduced, on a scale of 1-100, that indicates the efficiency of a tool and which influences loot calculations. This change from the once dominant damage/pec model will provide the design team with more freedom to release exciting and interesting items with a wider range of damage output and special effects. For example, our team will have the ability to create powerful new items that provide access to challenging and exciting content without dramatically increasing cost to play. Existing items will be assigned Economy values that reflect their relative efficiency to one another and to the entire array of items in the universe."
 
Xcessive said:
so now you have free to play winning, and heavy depo' players on the sidelines...

how does this work?

**edit --> i understand free to play is exaggeration....
Click to expand...

It's not quite free to play winning, as you say. It's just been totally bulldozed. The playing field has been flattened, losses are more predictable for all skill levels and it isn't dramatically changed by gear anymore.

Hey... I'm not saying it works. I'm just saying that's how it has become. You can see WHY they did it. But that doesn't stop the backlash. This is why, back in June, I was so :scratch2: because everyone was welcoming 2.0 with open arms....
 
Charlie|MindArk said:
There is no penalty to loot return percentage from critical hits, critical hits are treated just the same as normal hits in terms of loot. The changes made with 2.0 were not intended to deal with critical hit or critical damage buffs specifically but to modernize the loot system to make it more flexible for future development in several areas.

As mentioned in the Dev notes #11 06-08-2017

"A new Economy rating parameter will be introduced, on a scale of 1-100, that indicates the efficiency of a tool and which influences loot calculations. This change from the once dominant damage/pec model will provide the design team with more freedom to release exciting and interesting items with a wider range of damage output and special effects. For example, our team will have the ability to create powerful new items that provide access to challenging and exciting content without dramatically increasing cost to play. Existing items will be assigned Economy values that reflect their relative efficiency to one another and to the entire array of items in the universe."
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Charlie, can you clarify this point?

Is the current loot calculation based predominantly on cost spent per mob or not?
If the buffs decrease cost spent, does this also reduce amount of tt received?
This doesn't mean of course, that the TT return % will suffer.

Some clarification is really needed here...
 
Charlie|MindArk said:
There is no penalty to loot return percentage from critical hits, critical hits are treated just the same as normal hits in terms of loot. The changes made with 2.0 were not intended to deal with critical hit or critical damage buffs specifically but to modernize the loot system to make it more flexible for future development in several areas.

As mentioned in the Dev notes #11 06-08-2017

"A new Economy rating parameter will be introduced, on a scale of 1-100, that indicates the efficiency of a tool and which influences loot calculations. This change from the once dominant damage/pec model will provide the design team with more freedom to release exciting and interesting items with a wider range of damage output and special effects. For example, our team will have the ability to create powerful new items that provide access to challenging and exciting content without dramatically increasing cost to play. Existing items will be assigned Economy values that reflect their relative efficiency to one another and to the entire array of items in the universe."
Click to expand...

Well they obviously fucked up somewhere in the coding then didn't they, wouldn't be the first time and certainly will not be the last time.
 
Kazanori said:
Well they obviously fucked up somewhere in the coding then didn't they, wouldn't be the first time and certainly will not be the last time.
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Note the careful wording, he said Loot Return %. Not Loot TT.

Repeat of statement that they are moving away from DPP model.
 
Jhereg said:
Charlie, can you clarify this point?

Is the current loot calculation based predominantly on cost spent per mob or not?
If the buffs decrease cost spent, does this also reduce amount of tt received?
This doesn't mean of course, that the TT return % will suffer.

Some clarification is really needed here...
Click to expand...

"There is no penalty to loot return percentage from critical hits, critical hits are treated just the same as normal hits in terms of loot."
 
Xen said:
"There is no penalty to loot return percentage from critical hits, critical hits are treated just the same as normal hits in terms of loot."
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So, same cost whether it is a normal hit or a critical hit, so the amount factored into the loot calculation is the same.

A crit attack and a non crit attack using the same weapon costs the same amount, and thus, same amount of tt in loot. At least how I interpret.
 
You know what... nevermind. Blood pressure isn't worth it.
 
Xen said:
"There is no penalty to loot return percentage from critical hits, critical hits are treated just the same as normal hits in terms of loot."
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TECHNICALLY, calculating loot based on average cost to kill isn't a penalty. :rolleyes:
 
Jhereg said:
Charlie, can you clarify this point?

Is the current loot calculation based predominantly on cost spent per mob or not?
If the buffs decrease cost spent, does this also reduce amount of tt received?
This doesn't mean of course, that the TT return % will suffer.

Some clarification is really needed here...
Click to expand...

Is the current loot calculation based predominantly on cost spent per mob or not?

Yes.

If the buffs decrease cost spent, does this also reduce amount of tt received?
This doesn't mean of course, that the TT return % will suffer.

Yes and yes, it has no effect on return %. Efficiency of the weapon however does affect return %.

TECHNICALLY, calculating loot based on average cost to kill isn't a penalty.
Click to expand...
It is not based on average cost to kill, it is based on actual cost to kill.
 
Charlie|MindArk said:
Is the current loot calculation based predominantly on cost spent per mob or not?

Yes.

If the buffs decrease cost spent, does this also reduce amount of tt received?
This doesn't mean of course, that the TT return % will suffer.

Yes and yes, it has no effect on return %. Efficiency of the weapon however does affect return %.


It is not based on average cost to kill, it is based on actual cost to kill.
Click to expand...

Thanks Charlie. I'm so glad you guys clarified this!!!!! I suspect it is too much to ask for the loot tt return % versus efficiency number formula. ( Just kidding :p please don't take away my loot)
 
Charlie|MindArk said:
Is the current loot calculation based predominantly on cost spent per mob or not?

Yes.

If the buffs decrease cost spent, does this also reduce amount of tt received?
This doesn't mean of course, that the TT return % will suffer.

Yes and yes, it has no effect on return %. Efficiency of the weapon however does affect return %.


It is not based on average cost to kill, it is based on actual cost to kill.
Click to expand...

TL;DR

Hope you didn't get 1st place in Easter 2017 event....or pay extensive amounts for any crit related gear
 
I have some trouble believing in the OP maths, it was never his strong point in the past.

Ofc eco means a lot less, that is not surprising seeing how overpowered it was. But i would really like some more thrustworthy data before getting my torch and pitchfork.
 
Excellent, thanks Charlie. About efficiency, I have been wondering why damage enhancers affect efficiency rating while accuracy enhancers do not. Any comments? :)
 
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