Return penalty for using crit buffs

Thanks for replying.
some points
* it's highly ironical if they were not intended to deal with critical buffs - as that part is where a massive impact happened
* this would not explain the big players stopping to use crit% altogether - as using them should not change the returns - and yet quite some did (unless stopping altogether)
* my stats show that my tt return was 97% last months before loot 2.0 - and then dropped to 94% tt return last month and recently to 92% tt return after adding additional crit% without decay - is this how it is supposed to work?


There is no penalty to loot return percentage from critical hits, critical hits are treated just the same as normal hits in terms of loot. The changes made with 2.0 were not intended to deal with critical hit or critical damage buffs specifically but to modernize the loot system to make it more flexible for future development in several areas.
 
You don't believe my tt return calculations which are public in Google sheets? Or what does this refer to specifically?
I have some trouble believing in the OP maths, it was never his strong point in the past.
 
Thanks for replying.
some points
* it's highly ironical if they were not intended to deal with critical buffs - as that part is where a massive impact happened
* this would not explain the big players stopping to use crit% altogether - as using them should not change the returns - and yet quite some did (unless stopping altogether)
* my stats show that my tt return was 97% last months before loot 2.0 - and then dropped to 94% tt return last month and recently to 92% tt return after adding additional crit% without decay - is this how it is supposed to work?

The big change is that the mob no longer has a static loot it gives you which you can make the most of by decreasing your kill cost. That was where the tt profit was coming from. Now you will get loot proportional to what you put in. It's a huge change for those who invested in high level gear...

Your 97% prior may have just been a bad period for you, however long it maybe, but it is correct that you will see a further 3% drop after loot 2.0. Ideally, you will return back to about 97%....one day.
 
Excellent, thanks Charlie. About efficiency, I have been wondering why damage enhancers affect efficiency rating while accuracy enhancers do not. Any comments? :)

Damage enhancers increase the actual decay of the weapon. Try economy enhancers to see the opposite effect. Accuracy enhancers don't touch values that go into the efficiency formula.

Btw, thanks for official answers!

Edit: The statement in this post is wrong (s. official response below), just can't simply retract because it was already quoted. Wasn't in game to check right away, but seemed so obvious. Need to be more careful.
 
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Excellent, thanks Charlie. About efficiency, I have been wondering why damage enhancers affect efficiency rating while accuracy enhancers do not. Any comments? :)

Damage enhancers do not change the efficiency of the weapon. If however you have an amplifier on your weapon with a different efficiency from your weapon, adding damage enhancers will only increase the effect of the weapon itself and not the attached amplifier. This results in more of the total damage coming from the weapon and less from the amplifier, this changes the average efficiency of the setup as a whole to be closer to the weapons efficiency.
 
Damage enhancers increase the actual decay of the weapon. Try economy enhancers to see the opposite effect. Accuracy enhancers don't touch values that go into the efficiency formula.

Btw, thanks for official answers!

It would just seem logical that anything that actually changes the stats on the weapon info page would affect efficiency. Damage enhancers change the decay yes but acc change the CHA listed there as well. I underratand that the efficiency parameter is irrespective of skill (maxed or not) but in cases of going over maxed (12/12 CHA) shouldn't that have an efficiency effect? Rings and buffs do not alter the weapon info page so I understand that...
 
It would just seem logical that anything that actually changes the stats on the weapon info page would affect efficiency. Damage enhancers change the decay yes but acc change the CHA listed there as well. I underratand that the efficiency parameter is irrespective of skill (maxed or not) but in cases of going over maxed (12/12 CHA) shouldn't that have an efficiency effect? Rings and buffs do not alter the weapon info page so I understand that...

Hm, actually you're right. I was merely deducting. Maybe they forgot to include it? It would be logical.
 
Damage enhancers do not change the efficiency of the weapon. If however you have an amplifier on your weapon with a different efficiency from your weapon, adding damage enhancers will only increase the effect of the weapon itself and not the attached amplifier. This results in more of the total damage coming from the weapon and less from the amplifier, this changes the average efficiency of the setup as a whole to be closer to the weapons efficiency.

Yes of course. I knew about the reason why damage enhancers lowered amped weapons efficiency.. % of damage from weapon vs % of damage from amp.

I guess I am so used to thinking in terms of eco which always included the criticals. Indeed now it is only about the base decay. Thanks!
 
You have been introducing buffs and stacking of buffs, then actively marketing and selling the crit buffs over the last several years in strongboxes, event prizes and quests. People have been spending fortunes to acquire and stack the best of them.

Of course there was one historically introduced crucial stacking issue namely limited-unlimited armor EST which was used to the full extent causing best buff stackers to get consistent tt returns of 105% +. It was always apparent this was completely outbalanced
1. comparing to mk2 sight which decays and gives 3x less the buff then the never ending armor if used in the wrong way
2. with the normal stacking, it was not possible / easy to get such a tt% surplus, the advantage of 60% crit damage is just out of any balance
3. indirectly confirmed by stopping to offer new sets to drop in the token npc's

So what did you do to "fix" this? It seems you introduced a tt return penalty for using crit buffs. This seems apparent from the mass sales of crit items by ppl who were swearing to never sell them even for cosmic prices just before, and from current stats of others and myself - after acquiring the easter 2016 ring (1.8fb and 8% crit% extra) my tt return went from 94% to 92%. Suppose the actual implementation is more complex, but this is how it looks like, around 1% tt return less for one fb or correspomding crit%.

Consequences of this "fix"?
0. you clearly showed that dmg/pec doesn't mean a lot anymore as related to returns (as it can be changed independently), which was an urban legend and a major selling point for high dpp equipment
1. the majority of the tt profiters just stopped playing and sold assets
2. people that you sold the buffs to over the last years have lost trust in buying items that you advertise
3. the ones already on 95% tt return before like me got double-screwed, by tt return dropping by additional 3-5% (and yea support is good with dark humor in response to my claim that 92% is quite far from the loot 2.0 statisticians claimed 97% for large turnovers: )
Honestly?
You clearly don't seem/want to understand what a cut-down of 5% tt return as done to me means for high turnover. 400000 per month turnover which previously had 97% tt return = 12000 peds to recover from MU which is already close to impossible. With 92% that makes 32000 peds - which is indeed completely impossible.
4. the ones recently acquiring recent prizes / quest items that include a crit buff got double-screwed as well as they don't have a real choice to switch - the price of the item is devaluated and the buff cannot be disabled.

So why did you play with such a delicate balance as returns based on buffs instead of nerfing the one buff that was the actual issue? And/or introducing the already hinted decay of rings? Could you please do something to restore any value to the buff items that you are still selling in strongboxes among other things?

Of course I will get a shitstorm about being the one to bring this nerf in effect. But to be clear, I did not introduce the imbalance just highlighted it's existence. And never exploited it myself. Other than that, let it come - clearly the forum trolls love me :D

P.S. Obviously this is whining - but imho nobody deserves a long term tt return of 92%. It is not a game but milking pure and simple.

Thanks!

Wanted to start a post like that but always worked myself into typing up an expletive filled rant and stopped.

Wholeheartedly agree with your post.

Promoting buffs particularly in form of rings & pills right until the day you implement loot 2.0 & then simply render super costly acquired items useless in one swiping move is just crass. (and yes i'm sour since i bought an ares augmented not too long ago)

Btw, what's the point of strongboxes now?
 
Damage enhancers do not change the efficiency of the weapon. If however you have an amplifier on your weapon with a different efficiency from your weapon, adding damage enhancers will only increase the effect of the weapon itself and not the attached amplifier. This results in more of the total damage coming from the weapon and less from the amplifier, this changes the average efficiency of the setup as a whole to be closer to the weapons efficiency.

Is the current loot calculation based predominantly on cost spent per mob or not?

Yes.

If the buffs decrease cost spent, does this also reduce amount of tt received?
This doesn't mean of course, that the TT return % will suffer.


Yes and yes, it has no effect on return %. Efficiency of the weapon however does affect return %.


It is not based on average cost to kill, it is based on actual cost to kill.

There is no penalty to loot return percentage from critical hits, critical hits are treated just the same as normal hits in terms of loot. The changes made with 2.0 were not intended to deal with critical hit or critical damage buffs specifically but to modernize the loot system to make it more flexible for future development in several areas.

As mentioned in the Dev notes #11 06-08-2017

"A new Economy rating parameter will be introduced, on a scale of 1-100, that indicates the efficiency of a tool and which influences loot calculations. This change from the once dominant damage/pec model will provide the design team with more freedom to release exciting and interesting items with a wider range of damage output and special effects. For example, our team will have the ability to create powerful new items that provide access to challenging and exciting content without dramatically increasing cost to play. Existing items will be assigned Economy values that reflect their relative efficiency to one another and to the entire array of items in the universe."


Thanks for the clarifications and let not this thread dictate what the general concensus among entropians is about this loot change. As usual you will get all the nay sayers shouting while the ones enjoying are playing the game rather then spending time on forums.

One thing however needs to be reassessed is how the markup is balanced on mobs because currently it does not seem to be correctly so. Ideally since tt returns range has been reduced, one would expect the bigger mobs to give better mu in loot. I hope that is the current focus at the hq as that would be the incentive to move up skill and gear wise.
 
Maybe we will have some graphics major updates soon? And maybe even the social aspect could be greatly improved (much better chat functionality, calls, team voice chat etc.) since the hunting is ...screwed :D
 
Maybe we will have some graphics major updates soon? And maybe even the social aspect could be greatly improved (much better chat functionality, calls, team voice chat etc.) since the hunting is ...screwed :D

WE DEMAND MINI GAMES. Pac-man machine in Twin Peaks pls.
 
Is the current loot calculation based predominantly on cost spent per mob or not?
Yes.
If the buffs decrease cost spent, does this also reduce amount of tt received?
This doesn't mean of course, that the TT return % will suffer.

Yes and yes, it has no effect on return %. Efficiency of the weapon however does affect return %.
It is not based on average cost to kill, it is based on actual cost to kill.

well the first and third part sounds like a confirmation that if using a lot of buffs, the tt% dropped by that mob should be less tt%
if next statement is that return% would still be good, this can only mean return compensation and I can think of the following (no option of personal lootpool - it does not exist as stated ever so often)
1. there is a higher chance to loot some MU items - but what is this based on? esi's would be good measure but seems based on their prices they drop less not more. for anything else, how the system would know the actual MU as it is often not listed / historic sales not in touch with reality? based on rarity? that would be quite wrong as witnessed by the rare loot notifications and what the system considers as rare
2. there would be a higher chance of hitting a hof - also see no confirmation of this so far based on my data quite the opposite in fact

so what we can take from this is that there is that black magic and it is working flawlessly.
reassuring? yep I'm waiting for the other 2 A204 amps to drop that I will need to break even this month (one is already spent).
 
well the first and third part sounds like a confirmation that if using a lot of buffs, the tt% dropped by that mob should be less tt%
if next statement is that return% would still be good, this can only mean return compensation and I can think of the following (no option of personal lootpool - it does not exist as stated ever so often)
1. there is a higher chance to loot some MU items - but what is this based on? esi's would be good measure but seems based on their prices they drop less not more. for anything else, how the system would know the actual MU as it is often not listed / historic sales not in touch with reality? based on rarity? that would be quite wrong as witnessed by the rare loot notifications and what the system considers as rare
2. there would be a higher chance of hitting a hof - also see no confirmation of this so far based on my data quite the opposite in fact

so what we can take from this is that there is that black magic and it is working flawlessly.
reassuring? yep I'm waiting for the other 2 A204 amps to drop that I will need to break even this month (one is already spent).

I think you misunderstood. TT % will not drop but absolute TT value returned will, proportional to the cost decrease.

So just as an example, say I hunt without buffs and my cost is 100 peds. On average, my loot will return 97 peds. Loot return % is 97%.

If i use buffs and decrease my cost for the same number of mobs to 95 peds. My loot will decrease proportionally to 92.15 TT value, but the return percent is still 97%.

I assumed efficiency same number in above cases (same gun for example).
 
i see what you mean
- it does not conform at all what I see in my data - and that is the only thing I fully trust
- such complexity. how would the system know after mob killed what was the cost? what if I used multiple guns and did shoot 10 mobs in parallel? how is the quality rating calculated when using multiple guns? or team shooting? each of these mobs has a counter per person shooting of cost + weapon parameters + attachments used? hmm.
I think you misunderstood. TT % will not drop but absolute TT value returned will, proportional to the cost decrease.
So just as an example, say I hunt without buffs and my cost is 100 peds. On average, my loot will return 97 peds. Loot return % is 97%.
If i use buffs and decrease my cost for the same number of mobs to 95 peds. My loot will decrease proportionally to 92.15 TT value, but the return percent is still 97%.
.
 
i see what you mean
- it does not conform at all what I see in my data - and that is the only thing I fully trust
- such complexity. how would the system know after mob killed what was the cost? what if I used multiple guns and did shoot 10 mobs in parallel? how is the quality rating calculated when using multiple guns? or team shooting? each of these mobs has a counter per person shooting of cost + weapon parameters + attachments used? hmm.

Yeah I'm not sure about the multiple weapon issue in terms of kill shots. I assume its weight proportionally, but unless someone has MA's algorithm or MA is willing to confirm that it all goes into the loot calc, who knows?

I'm operating on the assumption that it does get weighted appropriately though.
 
Thanks for the clarifications and let not this thread dictate what the general concensus among entropians is about this loot change. As usual you will get all the nay sayers shouting while the ones enjoying are playing the game rather then spending time on forums.

Hear, Hear!

One thing however needs to be reassessed is how the markup is balanced on mobs because currently it does not seem to be correctly so. Ideally since tt returns range has been reduced, one would expect the bigger mobs to give better mu in loot. I hope that is the current focus at the hq as that would be the incentive to move up skill and gear wise.

Any item that droips from a mob that is favored by the non-stop 24 hour grinder crowd will lose it's MU right away.

These guys seem to forget the 'economy' part of 'RCE'.

it's a simulation and IRL if I decided to grow one billion tomatos this year I would be screwed. The world would not owe me last year's price per tomato.

I would also have to consider the market for tomatos, and probably need to create the infrastructure for delivering them to market, and still half of them would rot becuase the same people that produced enough tomatos for the world last year would still be growing them too.

This is a very small economy and overproduction is a real issue.

Obviously Divinity you're not one of the big complainers just making the point since this is a common complaint that MA somehow needs to compensate or improve things for heavy grinders by 'adding markup'. They can't in any long term sense and really they shouldn't be trying

well the first and third part sounds like a confirmation that if using a lot of buffs, the tt% dropped by that mob should be less tt%

No. If decreasing your cost to kill, loot returned will decrease also. the TT% should remain (relatively) level.
Quantity and percentage do not work the same, this is middle school math.


if next statement is that return% would still be good, this can only mean return compensation and I can think of the following (no option of personal lootpool - it does not exist as stated ever so often)
1. there is a higher chance to loot some MU items - but what is this based on? esi's would be good measure but seems based on their prices they drop less not more. for anything else, how the system would know the actual MU as it is often not listed / historic sales not in touch with reality? based on rarity? that would be quite wrong as witnessed by the rare loot notifications and what the system considers as rare
2. there would be a higher chance of hitting a hof - also see no confirmation of this so far based on my data quite the opposite in fact

so what we can take from this is that there is that black magic and it is working flawlessly.
reassuring? yep I'm waiting for the other 2 A204 amps to drop that I will need to break even this month (one is already spent).

So you've overproduced, and now someone 'owes' you compensation?

:lolup:

Enjoy your tomatos.
 
No. If decreasing your cost to kill, loot returned will decrease also. the TT% should remain (relatively) level.
Quantity and percentage do not work the same, this is middle school math.
well it doesn't according to my data. and your data is the only thing you can trust when talking about return in this game as it's a black box. some middle level actual grinder knowledge + tomatoes as you seem to like them
 
i see what you mean
- it does not conform at all what I see in my data - and that is the only thing I fully trust
- such complexity. how would the system know after mob killed what was the cost? what if I used multiple guns and did shoot 10 mobs in parallel? how is the quality rating calculated when using multiple guns? or team shooting? each of these mobs has a counter per person shooting of cost + weapon parameters + attachments used? hmm.

Smilgs, just try hunting without crit buffs for a while and see how it goes. Also, it's possible you just had a natural fluctuation in tt% return.
 
well it doesn't according to my data. and your data is the only thing you can trust when talking about return in this game as it's a black box. some middle level actual grinder knowledge + tomatoes as you seem to like them

The fact that tracked personal returns show swings over time is also a well established factor here.

An MA rep actually came on the forum and directly explained the answer to your question. This is nearly unprecedented and it's great.

The fact that you don't like the answer doesn't make it wrong. Sorry you're on a downswing.
 
i will def have to try it, suppose after migration ends.
the biggest issue is my viridian gun that was quite recently issued in item prizes by the kind folks @ HQ proudly announcing a buff effect. it will never be a clean test using it.
Smilgs, just try hunting without crit buffs for a while and see how it goes. Also, it's possible you just had a natural fluctuation in tt% return.
 
Thanks!

Wanted to start a post like that but always worked myself into typing up an expletive filled rant and stopped.

Wholeheartedly agree with your post.

Promoting buffs particularly in form of rings & pills right until the day you implement loot 2.0 & then simply render super costly acquired items useless in one swiping move is just crass. (and yes i'm sour since i bought an ares augmented not too long ago)

Btw, what's the point of strongboxes now?

Appently there is no point to boxes anymore since the buffs arent of any use, skill pills useless cos there is no point of getting better gear and if you get a lucky ring the best you can hope for is that it got good reload speed.

As ive posted before nerf would trigger instant sell out so its getting closer now, just lose the 10k i have on card then i'll gtfo.
 
i have been on a downswing since april 2016 as in my public hunting log (see signature). loot 2.0 just made it way more... down...
besides, it was not an answer - it basically just says "trust us we know what we are doing and your returns will be the same or better". after recent events many of us have a lot of trust issues. especially when they are confirmed by returns.
The fact that you don't like the answer doesn't make it wrong. Sorry you're on a downswing.
 
There is no penalty to loot return percentage from critical hits, critical hits are treated just the same as normal hits in terms of loot. The changes made with 2.0 were not intended to deal with critical hit or critical damage buffs specifically but to modernize the loot system to make it more flexible for future development in several areas.

[/I]"

Thank you indeed for showing up for what is probably a heated & tricky debate.

Now i'm not sure what to take away from that particular part of your statement.

The debate in this thread seems to acknowledge that there is indeed a major change in how crit buffs affecting ones game play and returns. It's more turned into is it a good thing or bad thing discussion.

Yet here you seem to confirm that your changes weren't meant to affect crit buffs (and therefore the values of the items that produce them)

That's not very reassuring to be honest!

Yet the glass half full part of me kinda hopes you may look into this now since it's creating a waves.
 
The big change is that the mob no longer has a static loot it gives you which you can make the most of by decreasing your kill cost. That was where the tt profit was coming from. Now you will get loot proportional to what you put in. It's a huge change for those who invested in high level gear...

Your 97% prior may have just been a bad period for you, however long it maybe, but it is correct that you will see a further 3% drop after loot 2.0. Ideally, you will return back to about 97%....one day.

This is not a change tho. It was always so that the more you spent killing a mob the more loot you got. You forget that efficiency still is 7% of the calc. 7% is HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE :smoke:
 
OP,

My returns post 2.0 are also down 4-5% on close to 100k cycled. I'm not even in the same league as you with skills/money/gear/buffs. I'm low-mid level.

Unlike you I have tried a LOT of different things. I've tried dozens of different weapon setups, L and UL. Armor/no armor. Everything from punies up to lvl 40 mobs, trying to match the setup to the mob. Tried mobs on every planet. Tried all the new ArMatrix crap. Tried stacking up all kinds of attachments, or none at all. BLP, laser, melee, you name it. L and UL amps. All of it.

Nothing can push me above 93-94% TT return, which I cannot make up with MU. Prior to 2.0 I was consistently 97-98% (and quite happy there).

I just see it as the way it is now, and I spend my money on other games. I still play EU (almost every day), but I just play it casually now and I don't plan to depo any more. There's no point in whining about it, just find something else to spend your hard earned dollars on, and you'll be much happier. :cool:
 
OP,

My returns post 2.0 are also down 4-5% on close to 100k cycled. I'm not even in the same league as you with skills/money/gear/buffs. I'm low-mid level.
0
Unlike you I have tried a LOT of different things. I've tried dozens of different weapon setups, L and UL. Armor/no armor. Everything from punies up to lvl 40 mobs, trying to match the setup to the mob. Tried mobs on every planet. Tried all the new ArMatrix crap. Tried stacking up all kinds of attachments, or none at all. BLP, laser, melee, you name it. L and UL amps. All of it.

Nothing can push me above 93-94% TT return, which I cannot make up with MU. Prior to 2.0 I was consistently 97-98% (and quite happy there).

I just see it as the way it is now, and I spend my money on other games. I still play EU (almost every day), but I just play it casually now and I don't plan to depo any more. There's no point in whining about it, just find something else to spend your hard earned dollars on, and you'll be much happier. :cool:

Agreed. Current trend, the only correct way to hunt is to not hunt. Or just hunt knowing you're lighting money on fire.

Just a shame I put in the money and effort to hitlv63 in a year to all be a waste.
 
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MA couldn't just nerf the EST sets. They said, long ago, they would not change items properties.

They did. At least one example, they changed the speed on the Fanoos before it was removed.

The targeting properties of the skill scanners were changed so there is a 5 minute cooldown between targets, rather than the infinite auto-use like it was previously. While this did not affect the numbers on the item itself, it was a drastic change of the functionality of the item.
 
Didnt read all, but what i can say - dont think and cry as much as possible Smilgs! Also u have to change ur signature to something like: "Have no brain. Its just me skilling crying"...
 
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