Return penalty for using crit buffs

yeah i know that the multiplier value is also dependant on the size of the kill cost. so lower kill cost + multi means less than higher kill cost + multi.
but the point being is that more tickets give you more chances to get ANY multi in the first place.

lets say his money buy him 295 tickets. and none of them is a winning multi. if he would now be able to afford 305 tickets with the same money then he may have gotten at least one in those 10 more tickets.

Right, and again, that's speculation on your part. Unless you have evidence that shows the loot algorithm works this way?

In fact if lowering your costs also lowers the value of loot, it certainly possible this could lead to *less* multis. It's entirely possible that the algorithm does the exact opposite of what you claim - and that the extra DPP may in fact lead to less multipliers, even though you're buying more loot events.

I'm not saying it does, since I have no evidence to show either way. I'm just saying that you keep stating that higher DPP = more multipliers as though it were gospel, but unless you actually have some proof of this then you are just making assumptions about the loot algorithm which may or may not be true.
 
I saw the thread you and Zho did about the effect of buffs, but I must have missed the one where you proved everyone will get 98% return if they hunt within reason. Could you point me to it? I would definitely like to learn how to achieve this.

I'm not being sarcastic btw.

;) Yeah me too, 98% is pretty nice if you can manage MU. Let's take that number and make it X. Because it isn't very relevant and is just confusing things. What really matters is that it no longer makes a difference if you pay less for your tickets because the prize you get back reflects how much you paid. I assume there is a cap in place or else we'd all sit around shooting the same mob over and over and over.

X represents the maximum efficiency, which is a bit of an unknown until we spend forever testing out the optimal loot fractions for mobs and % of ideal looted MU items. Both hunters, regardless of how many they each kill, will receive some multiplier of this X, up to the infamous 7%. So if hunter A is most efficient, they might see 98% (unicorn). Hunter B might be slightly less, and see an overall return of 95%. That number doesn't really matter, its just an average based on your set up and not how many times you roll the dice, in the long run.

As for bankroll, while it is important to discuss, it clouds the specific thing being argued here because we're adding an outside variable into the mix and giving it weight on a calculation that doesn't factor it in. I'm trying to pry the two apart because I wan't to clarify that it doesn't matter how long you're out in the field for, your return will reach X over time regardless if you do it all in one go or in separate parts.
 
So one thing they did when they put in the new loot system and took out no loots, was that I don't think they kept in minimum loots right (and these mobs already did not have no loots)? I remember caperons never looted far below 1 ped or so, but I got .5 ped or so after loot 2.0 sometimes. Except they did loot novas and blazars so there goes my theory :p.

But maybe the extra volatility is due to this?. For those used to the minimum payout mobs, this would amount to an increase in cost to kill the mob?

HMM!!!:lolup: :scratch2::broke::eureka:

edit: (Probably not the reason though...)
 
I think the 98% is not a real number, just example number.

If your expected tt return is xx% (in this case 98%) due to efficiency, you would expect that whether you pay 1 ped into a mob or 2 peds, basically.

;) Yeah me too, 98% is pretty nice if you can manage MU. Let's take that number and make it X. Because it isn't very relevant and is just confusing things. What really matters is that it no longer makes a difference if you pay less for your tickets because the prize you get back reflects how much you paid.

Ok yes, I understand and agree with all that. I though for a moment y'all had somehow shown that 98% was the convergence point and I got excited.
 
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I think the 98% is not a real number, just example number.

If your expected tt return is xx% (in this case 98%) due to efficiency, you would expect that whether you pay 1 ped into a mob or 2 peds, basically.

At the risk of comparing this game to a slot machine, I'm going to compare this game to a slot machine:

Pre Loot 2.0: This game was a like a slot machine where the payout was the same in absolute tt, but you could adjust the amount you paid to play the machine.

Post Loot 2.0: Now when you put money into the slot machine, the slot machine pays out proportionally to the money that goes in. The absolute tt output changes to a linear function of your input tt basically.

as i already stated, this only works in an environment where you have unlimited peds to create an unlimited sample size. a fictional environment that doesnt apply here as even 200k kills or more doesnt seem to cover all swings completely
 
Ok yes, I understand and agree with all that. I though for a moment y'all had somehow shown that 98% was the convergence point and I got excited.

Sorry, it's a unicorn. :cry:
 
as i already stated, this only works in an environment where you have unlimited peds to create an unlimited sample size. a fictional environment that doesnt apply here as even 200k kills or more doesnt seem to cover all swings completely

I mean in this case, you are just gambling....

You don't even need crit buffs to lower your cost, just go shoot snables lol. You can get SOO MANY MULTIPLIERS!
 
Right, and again, that's speculation on your part. Unless you have evidence that shows the loot algorithm works this way?

In fact if lowering your costs also lowers the value of loot, it certainly possible this could lead to *less* multis. It's entirely possible that the algorithm does the exact opposite of what you claim - and that the extra DPP may in fact lead to less multipliers, even though you're buying more loot events.

I'm not saying it does, since I have no evidence to show either way. I'm just saying that you keep stating that higher DPP = more multipliers as though it were gospel, but unless you actually have some proof of this then you are just making assumptions about the loot algorithm which may or may not be true.

why would you assume that they factor low dpp and high dpp different in terms of getting a multi, when already the average loot is directly related to kill cost. that just doesnt make any sense. and programwise its far easier to handle both the same way. and if both are handled the same way then tis obvious that more tickets means more chances for a bigger loot.

and yes, if your bankroll is unlimited and you can hunt all day long for the rest of your life on the same mob then it will even out eventually. BUT this is not the case. it just is not realistic. even on highroller with really high turnover and kill count i see differences of 5% and more in their logs over a months and more. so how big should a sample size be to get anywhere near that number? 100k kills? 200k? 1 million kills? the bankroll needed for this would need to be huge. and to minimize this effect it you would need to maximize the dpp. just like before.

so yeah in that fictional environment you are right. and in this fictional environment basically every item should be worth close to tt value only because you dont get any advantage, apart from the little efficiency stuff. but this is not the real situation. bankroll management is important and should always be considered. cos every theory that doesnt use swings and bankroll management is nice n all but it cant be applied.
 
I mean in this case, you are just gambling....

You don't even need crit buffs to lower your cost, just go shoot snables lol. You can get SOO MANY MULTIPLIERS!

now this doesnt make any sense. the same logic that applies to eomons also applies to snables. only difference being that you get more kills faster. but the swings should be the same. yeah you need less bankoll to cover those swings. thats my point. you need to apply your theory on a realistic environment cos otherwise its useless. i mean okay. go and tell girtsn he just needs to shoot another trillion eomon with his unlimited bankroll and he will get higher returns than he has now because "it will even out in the long run". i doubt that you can make his cryign stop with that.
 
why would you assume that they factor low dpp and high dpp different in terms of getting a multi, when already the average loot is directly related to kill cost. that just doesnt make any sense. and programwise its far easier to handle both the same way. and if both are handled the same way then tis obvious that more tickets means more chances for a bigger loot.

You answered your own question, dude.
 
why would you assume ...

<trimmed>

...but it cant be applied.

If your argument is about lowering cost to kill to stretch limited funds to bridge between multipliers, then yes, I can agree with that of course. But being able to hunt more to get yourself from one break-even multiplier to another is a rather small benefit by comparison to 1.0 and far less valuable.
 
MindArk and the Planet Partners strive to ensure a smooth and problem-free Version Update. Nevertheless, even after extensive testing some issues may arise after release. Such issues are often addressed via mini-patches directly after a release and in subsequent patches. If you feel that the possibility of encountering minor issues or bugs directly after a Version Update affects your gameplay to an extent that Entropia Universe is not enjoyable, please wait until the mini-patches have been released and any last minute issues have been resolved.

Never forget!
 
guys, please - this thread is not about how loot 2.0 supposidly works. and actually i was wrong with the thread title, as of now main points that have become clearer are:

* show some stats and behavior based points that crit buffs seem to lower the tt return % and to point out that the loot 2.0 averages for high turnover have a major deviation in real application cases (97% vs 92%) - why? - and "they should not" is not an answer
* highlighting the scammy nature of having sold and still selling crit buffs and then nullifying their dpp effects / or even screwing them beyond null
* highlight that when returns don't work for you, you are on your own - as supposedly the return system knows best and is bug free - the fact that there are crazy consistent losses does not matter
* ask MA why did they not go the hinted way of introducing decay for the rings
* ask MA why crit buff items did not get included in the efficiency calculation
* ask MA why imk2 got special treatment on loot 2.0 in terms of efficiency while newer thus more relevant and many times more expensive items got nullified
* ask MA why every unlimited buff had to be terminated if the main imbalance was a limited armor introduced before buff stacking
 
guys, please - this thread is not about how loot 2.0 supposidly works. and actually i was wrong with the thread title, as of now main points that have become clearer are:

* show some stats and behavior based points that crit buffs seem to lower the tt return % and to point out that the loot 2.0 averages for high turnover have a major deviation in real application cases (97% vs 92%) - why? - and "they should not" is not an answer
* highlighting the scammy nature of having sold and still selling crit buffs and then nullifying their dpp effects / or even screwing them beyond null
* highlight that when returns don't work for you, you are on your own - as supposedly the return system knows best and is bug free - the fact that there are crazy consistent losses does not matter
* ask MA why did they not go the hinted way of introducing decay for the rings
* ask MA why crit buff items did not get included in the efficiency calculation
* ask MA why imk2 got special treatment on loot 2.0 in terms of efficiency while newer thus more relevant and many times more expensive items got nullified
* ask MA why every unlimited buff had to be terminated if the main imbalance was a limited armor introduced before buff stacking

The conversations have spiraled so sorry if I missed but do you know what your return looks like if you take all the buffs off? For the sake of science.
 
* ask MA why imk2 got special treatment on loot 2.0 in terms of efficiency while newer thus more relevant and many times more expensive items got nullified
What do you mean by special treatment? 2.0 efficiency numbers correlate to the old dpp numbers.

Efficiency=(x-2)(23x-42)/2
x = maxdmg/cost
 
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The biggest question seems to be did they do a backup at 1.0 and when can it be reverted :smoke:
 
The biggest question seems to be did they do a backup at 1.0 and when can it be reverted :smoke:

MA's official post: "Nevermind, just kidding, we set it all back, psych! *trollface*" :laugh:
 
maybe its time to stop crying and to go test shit out yourself.

I did, that is why I am talking, these are my impressions. The point with grinding (aside from the fact that I am the very definition of anti-grinding, I am jumping mobs) is that it flows the economy.

If you take out 7 ArMatrix Lr-20+a104+laser+scope and after circa 4,5k ped rolled you are below 90% on a 500hp mob, something is wrong. Same goes for BP-40+beast, was the most volatile return I experienced in awhile. Surely it meant alot that it was on longtooth but then every mob suitable to that combo (allo esto trox maff) behaved the same. To the end of the budget dedicated to these tests.

My constant runs were not 90-95% with some 150% to compensate, they were 50-75% with some 130-150% here and there to not compensate. The bigger the efficiency & the effort, the lower the return. And aside from picking a reasonable speed to kill (I like to keep it at 10, if possible 15 hits/mob) and aiming the gun at the damn mob, I don't see where the big philosophy is.

Maybe I expressed my thoughts in a childish manner, but I simply feel that certain globals are no more in reach. And I do believe is a technical error, it doesn't make any sense. Yes it might be that grinding is not recommendable anymore but the problem with this mindset is that then the best solution is to play Solitaire.

Yes I did find things which works. Like, don't touch high efficiency guns or any gun for that matter, and use a mining finder instead :laugh:
 
I did, that is why I am talking, these are my impressions. The point with grinding (aside from the fact that I am the very definition of anti-grinding, I am jumping mobs) is that it flows the economy.

If you take out 7 ArMatrix Lr-20+a104+laser+scope and after circa 4,5k ped rolled you are below 90% on a 500hp mob, something is wrong. Same goes for BP-40+beast, was the most volatile return I experienced in awhile. Surely it meant alot that it was on longtooth but then every mob suitable to that combo (allo esto trox maff) behaved the same. To the end of the budget dedicated to these tests.

My constant runs were not 90-95% with some 150% to compensate, they were 50-75% with some 130-150% here and there to not compensate. The bigger the efficiency & the effort, the lower the return. And aside from picking a reasonable speed to kill (I like to keep it at 10, if possible 15 hits/mob) and aiming the gun at the damn mob, I don't see where the big philosophy is.

Maybe I expressed my thoughts in a childish manner, but I simply feel that certain globals are no more in reach. And I do believe is a technical error, it doesn't make any sense. Yes it might be that grinding is not recommendable anymore but the problem with this mindset is that then the best solution is to play Solitaire.

Yes I did find things which works. Like, don't touch high efficiency guns or any gun for that matter, and use a mining finder instead :laugh:

may i suggest that you just change planets? go away from the mainly hunted planets and hunt low traffic mobs. this may change your returns drastically. or at least the volatility.

and i cant recreate your returns... when im going with an lr 45 + some uneco but fitting amp on troxies, then i usually (8 out of 10 runs) end up with profit after the gun is used up... that may be a lucky streak so it may not count but it shows that it is entirely possible to profit. just not as easy as before

on a side note: i got a reminder on a case that i forgot to mention on the whole crit item matter:
biggest effect is not even the possibility of more multiplier for the same value but it lets you get possible MU cheaper. or at least lets you collect more MU items for the same money. that only works when hunting mobs with MU though, so doesnt apply for event mobs...
 
the formula including the correlation was a choice. if going for radical, why not make every weapon around same efficiency (which is quite true for most of them) even more so "allowing space for future improvements"? anyway the main point was - as opposed to making all crit buffs exactly same crap and not including them in efficiency at all.
What do you mean by special treatment? 2.0 efficiency numbers correlate to the old dpp numbers.
Efficiency=(x-2)(23x-42)/2
x = maxdmg/cost
 
When i read you all, it appear this is not a game but a casino/lottery :confused:

If this is a casino/lottery, there is something wrong with my country laws. But if this is a lottery/casino, loot 2.0 work perfectly. You try to loot something, you get a small loot (often) or a big loot (not often) and at the end you lose all what you have.


If this is a game, i agree for pay a fee to MA for play but i would like to have something valuable in exchange, in regards of the cost/investment you have to do.
I mean, i don't want earn a money if this is a game, but when i see you can't play more than 1 or 2 weeks with 300$ and when you see how things are repetetive and bored... There is not much fun, hunts are not dynamics, etc ...
Before loot 2.0, it was possible to beat the system, so there was a goal. Goal was to have max skills and best gear as you can have, for a day, maybe, play for free.

Now more skills mean, more cost. If you hunt at your level with your gear, according to MA stats with 94% for low players and 97% for grinders, it will cost your more $ for grinders ! It make no sense if this a game.
Before loot 2.0, skills reward for all missions had a sense. Now, it make no sense to give skills in reward.
If this is a game, MA should give us more items in reward for mission. This is possible with with loot 2.0 system after all.
So if this is a game, MA should take his fee on each kill/click and let other ped back to the players with components/items and let the players to create a market with these items.

PS : Sorry i'm a bad english speacker
 
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Before loot 2.0, it was possible to beat the system, so there was a goal. Goal was to have max skills and best gear as you can have for a day, maybe, play for free.

Not the system. Other players. If you made it into the top league of skills and certain rare equipment, you could get over the threshold of 100% returns, but the total sum of money redistributed to the players always remains less than 100% of the company's income. It is everybody else who paid for this and it starts to backfire when too many figure it out.
 
Not the system. Other players. If you made it into the top league of skills and certain rare equipment, you could get over the threshold of 100% returns, but the total sum of money redistributed to the players always remains less than 100% of the company's income. It is everybody else who paid for this and it starts to backfire when too many figure it out.

and that exactly is the problem. people throw huge chunks of money in here into gear and expect to make money off of it. they expect other players to pay for them because they got money. they expect it to be like in the real world, where money easily makes you more money. but as in the real world this works here as well. just not with the main professions that easily (anymore).
the times with just brainlessly throwing money into the game and hoping that other players will cover for that bullshit are over. and those people that quit over this... well its good that they are gone.
 
Not the system. Other players. If you made it into the top league of skills and certain rare equipment, you could get over the threshold of 100% returns, but the total sum of money redistributed to the players always remains less than 100% of the company's income. It is everybody else who paid for this and it starts to backfire when too many figure it out.

Ok, pretty same. There was a goal, like in all other game, beat all other players. So now ? What is the goal, if you can't beat anything ? Why to spend money on this game ? How players will stay ? Is this game will become like Second Life, a virtual universe with only social things ?
Why to play now ? In this state, the game is not attractive anymore for me.

Do you find fun to stay in front of a mob with auto fire for 30 seconde or 1 minute ? For what goal ?
ATH ? In this case this a casino, i read slot machine, so it's forbiden on alot countries if MA do not paid tax.
For skills ? Ok, but what to do with your skills if you can't beat anything ?

About buff, i understand why MA did that. But MA said, the return will be the same with and without buff. In fact this is not the case and many players prove it with there log in this forum.
You can't beat 100% TT regurlarly, ok, it's fair.
But using items who must give you an advantage, should give you an advantage versus players who don't have any items. It make sense for me. Again, this is not the case. And don't tell me something like better loot composition, loot composition is pretty same with and without buff if you max your weapon.
 
Ok, pretty same. There was a goal, like in all other game, beat all other players. So now ? What is the goal, if you can't beat anything ? Why to spend money on this game ? How players will stay ? Is this game will become like Second Life, a virtual universe with only social things ?
Why to play now ? In this state, the game is not attractive anymore for me.

Do you find fun to stay in front of a mob with auto fire for 30 seconde or 1 minute ? For what goal ?
ATH ? In this case this a casino, i read slot machine, so it's forbiden on alot countries if MA do not paid tax.
For skills ? Ok, but what to do with your skills if you can't beat anything ?

About buff, i understand why MA did that. But MA said, the return will be the same with and without buff. In fact this is not the case and many players prove it with there log in this forum.
You can't beat 100% TT regurlarly, ok, it's fair.
But using items who must give you an advantage, should give you an advantage versus players who don't have any items. It make sense for me. Again, this is not the case. And don't tell me something like better loot composition, loot composition is pretty same with and without buff if you max your weapon.

i havent seen a single log that shows that return with buffs is worse, long term, on a mob that is not longtooth or eomon...
and even then the logs show only the return with buffs. there is not a comparable one with same gun, armor and mob which shows better returns without buffs on a comparable sample size.
 
If loot in loot 1.0 were 2% of tt profiteers in loot 2.0 are only maybe 0,5% that can tt profit , the other 1,5 is redistribuated to the others increasing the average return of for example 93% . It's simple , in loot 1.0 people found a way to enter in that 2% , now they need to find a way to get into that 0.5%
 
Ok, pretty same. There was a goal, like in all other game, beat all other players. So now ? What is the goal, if you can't beat anything ? Why to spend money on this game ? How players will stay ? Is this game will become like Second Life, a virtual universe with only social things ?
Why to play now ? In this state, the game is not attractive anymore for me.

Do you find fun to stay in front of a mob with auto fire for 30 seconde or 1 minute ? For what goal ?
ATH ? In this case this a casino, i read slot machine, so it's forbiden on alot countries if MA do not paid tax.
For skills ? Ok, but what to do with your skills if you can't beat anything ?

About buff, i understand why MA did that. But MA said, the return will be the same with and without buff. In fact this is not the case and many players prove it with there log in this forum.
You can't beat 100% TT regurlarly, ok, it's fair.
But using items who must give you an advantage, should give you an advantage versus players who don't have any items. It make sense for me. Again, this is not the case. And don't tell me something like better loot composition, loot composition is pretty same with and without buff if you max your weapon.
Nobody said that nobody can't beat nobody... play wise , there are some that in 15 years didn't figured out how to profit, there are some that in 1 years already was doing profit, now it's up to you to figure out how to get profit and in how much time , it's just a new beginning, MA cannot serve you everything on the table , and you cannot expect that players will tell you now how to do it , test , shoot , do math till you get success.
 
Nobody said that nobody can't beat nobody... play wise , there are some that in 15 years didn't figured out how to profit, there are some that in 1 years already was doing profit, now it's up to you to figure out how to get profit and in how much time , it's just a new beginning, MA cannot serve you everything on the table , and you cannot expect that players will tell you now how to do it , test , shoot , do math till you get success.

I love when people try to give lesson when they don't know other players. You don't know how i play, my gear, what i tested etc etc ...
The case is not "What is the way to profit".
The case is : Items who must give you an advantage, do not give it !
I understand, some guys can be frustrated, jalous etc because they do not have any good item, it's like IRL after all, i don't care about that.
But Smigls made this thread for ask to MA to check the algorythm, because there is something wrong between what MA say and what we can show in game. This is legit. I didn't said MA should change loot 2.0 for loot 1.0.
I never asked to anyone (MA include) any help for learn the game, i tested and tryed by myself. I do not ask for over 100% TT. I never did that before, i never complained about loot return (i lost alot since i play, i'm not a profit player).

But, there is something wrong for me. Better is your gear, lesser it work properly, more the game cost. That's all. If now, we can't reach any goal (for example acquired the best gear as possible because they become useless) where we go ? If to have more skills mean more cost for play, why to skill ? If you still play at low level mob, why to play, where is the fun and pride to be skilled ?
 
I like you Justine. Game makes no sense anymore.
 
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