So, what 'should' loot 2.1,2.2...3.0 look like?

Ok, serious question about what players think a balance should be like between MA and different player groups, but with a bit of a twist.

My angle is - what is it that should allow some players to do better than others?
A: knowledge of the 'open' systems - what mobs drop what, where to mine for what, what bps to craft, efficiency factors etc?
B: knowledge of the 'closed' systems - loot cycles, loot pool refills, bonus payouts etc?
C: various levels of 'valuable' equipment which can be bought to gain an advantage?
D: skill levels which may enable access to bits of A,B and C?
E: other stuff?

It appears to me that C has been diminished quite a lot in loot 2.0. Without being up amongst the ubers, it seems to me that the equipment advantage is now mostly channelled into 'better loot quality = mu' rate, rather than tt returns.
My assumption is that MA needs to tweek this a lot more, so that the difference between loot quality is high for just a small range of kill cost difference for any particular mob. By this I mean that a mob set at a basic kill cost of, say, 10 peds, should have most of the mu loot drop options set for kills which cost under 10 peds (either by a bit of luck with crits, or weaps which can kill in a few shots - and be lucky with higher damage/lower costs on a kill without even needing crits, or efficient weaps at over what used to be 3.0 dpp, for example).

Do people think areas A-E are now totally off balance, or that MA should work within C, for example?

I expect this thread can be both broad and narrow while being on topic. Looking for opinions - nobody has to be right here...

F. None of the above.

what is it that should allow some players to do better than others

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Should be a level playing ground for all.

It is closer now than it used to be but inside info etc. still exists now.

Buying your way in to better loot which existed pre loot two point oh makes this a pay to win game which really makes casual players, I.e. mindarks target audience going forward, not wanna play much.

Loot two is essentially a progressive slot machine IMHO which is good... But waves still exist. Need to fix that... Make it more random on loot tables... Add ultra rare loot to all levels not just upper levels... When that two shrapnel drops....

For over a decade mindar has said any loot can drop from any mob... Make that a reality in the really rare hits... I.e
Swap the rare part of each mobs loot table occasionally... Not often.... And just on rare hits... Like Point 000002 percent of time puny might loot a Uber item... Still would be regular part o loot table for Uber mobs so like one percent for level 50, three percent for level eighty, etc.

Basically make the progressive jackpot more like a real world slot progression.... So that puny percent slowly would increase to one percent every in game hour actively hunting etc. Timer resets after log out... so those just hunting 5 minutes have less chance of uber items than those that are grinding hours and hours.

mastermesh said:

F. None of the above.



Should be a level playing ground for all.

It is closer now than it used to be but inside info etc. still exists now.

Buying your way in to better loot which existed pre loot two point oh makes this a pay to win game which really makes casual players, I.e. mindarks target audience going forward, not wanna play much.

Loot two is essentially a progressive slot machine IMHO which is good... But waves still exist. Need to fix that... Make it more random on loot tables... Add ultra rare loot to all levels not just upper levels... When that two shrapnel drops

Click to expand...

Yeah I agreed. This is the only proper RCE game. Let's see how fast we can kill it!

If there's no incentive to be the best, the best won't pay to be there. Slowly, the best becomes the worst in this system, and then there is no more system.

MA have truly screwed over the big players with this update; loads think this is a good thing but then players like myself (heavy depositors who are trying to improve) wont want to play either.

So loot 3.0 could be anything you envisage if there are no players to experience it.

mastermesh said:

F. None of the above.



Should be a level playing ground for all.

It is closer now than it used to be but inside info etc. still exists now.

Buying your way in to better loot which existed pre loot two point oh makes this a pay to win game which really makes casual players, I.e. mindarks target audience going forward, not wanna play much.

Loot two is essentially a progressive slot machine IMHO which is good... But waves still exist. Need to fix that... Make it more random on loot tables... Add ultra rare loot to all levels not just upper levels... When that two shrapnel drops

Click to expand...

No offense, but I hope you realize this post is nonsense

Level playing ground for all in terms of TT returns? Terrible idea, would defeat the purpose of nearly the entire game.

Inside info? I think Entropia at the heart is meant to be an 'information game' and this has always been a huge component to it, damaging that component would hurt the fun of the game quite a lot for almost everyone.

"Buying" your way into better loot existed before and exists now, it's a way to give value to the extensive quantity of gear inside the game, otherwise it has no purpose being in the game, and the metagame of trying to upgrade your setup and be efficient would be killed.

As far as waves still existing in Loot 2.0, it's true, but they're more frequent and shorter duration than before, so they aren't easily abused like they were in Loot 1.0, I think that's the best fix they could come up with because they couldn't afford to hire a cryptography expert to completely re-do everything, their new stuff is just based on their old stuff with some tweaking.

When it comes to ultra-rare loot being available at all levels, this already is the case, if you visit http://www.entropiawiki.com/ you will quickly see that nearly every single mob in the game has SOME sort of rare/ultra rare loots that drop from them, and in almost all the cases where it isn't obvious which rare/ultra rare loots are present from a mob, it's almost always because their loot tables haven't been updated by the players.

Thanks for the responses so far ...

mastermesh said:

F. None of the above.

Should be a level playing ground for all.

It is closer now than it used to be but inside info etc. still exists now.

Buying your way in to better loot which existed pre loot two point oh makes this a pay to win game which really makes casual players, I.e. mindarks target audience going forward, not wanna play much.

Loot two is essentially a progressive slot machine IMHO which is good... But waves still exist. Need to fix that... Make it more random on loot tables... Add ultra rare loot to all levels not just upper levels... When that two shrapnel drops

Click to expand...

Do you really mean by a level playing field that a noob should be just as likely to get the same returns (tt and mu) as players with experience/knowledge and in-game skill points?

I get the point about inside info or stuff discovered without actual inside info and kept fairly secret. Is there a dividing line there about how people find out about stuff (like which mob to hunt right after a vu is on the dodgy side)?

I'm wondering whether the randomness hasn't in effect been helped by the loot quality function. Many of us used to know when certain loot was likely to enter the loot pool - and some preferred to hunt exactly then only... . If you now not only need any old kill/looting event, but also a kill which costs less or quite a lot less than average (as in OP) - and the wave inputs are much more frequent, that may make it much harder to tell when to hunt...
That's still knowledge from B, yes, so I understand people not liking that, but has loot 2.0 had any effect there, or even made things worse?

Should be a minimum hours hunting required in order to post in hunting forums..

Darkaruki said:

When it comes to ultra-rare loot being available at all levels, this already is the case, if you visit http://www.entropiawiki.com/ you will quickly see that nearly every single mob in the game has SOME sort of rare/ultra rare loots that drop from them, and in almost all the cases where it isn't obvious which rare/ultra rare loots are present from a mob, it's almost always because their loot tables haven't been updated by the players.

Click to expand...

This is true but it also falls foul of what MA (and I guess the playerbase through lack of systematic understanding) have failed to address.

Loot in EU is not based on chance, it is rather based on availability (the fact you can modify your loot should point towards this additionally but it isn't the only evidence you have). Items are looted based on their availability in the pool; if an imk2 is available (item cap +1) you can be sure it will be looted fairly rapidly. MA have artificially hard-capped the items currently in the game to control over-supply (saturation) by grinders; i.e., once imk2 is identified as loot on mob A, mob A is grinded by 90% of the playerbase until everyone has an imk2 at tt+1 (extreme hypothetical).

What MA have failed to create is a pipeline of items where A is superceded by B which is superceded by C etc. It's unfortunate by they create their own constraints on this by a) economy and b) dps being linear with cost. Economy means that there is a max (5.00 oldschool, 3.5 newschool) which is related to 100% on the new readout. DPS being a constraint in that you can't have items which continually rise in DPS, because this also means the costs of hunting are continually rising until a point where it is impossible for people to compete with those who have extreme bankrolls (this is directly analogous with real-world inflation caused by capitalism, but just magnified).

The fixes to their problem are also just as "problematic" - they have unlimited items in game which are prime items, in loot 1.0 this would be the ultra-eco imk2, which are already bound by their constraints. So I guess loot 2.0's key objective was to nerf those prime, unlimited items so that others could take their place.

The issue with that is, MA want full control - you cannot have a system where:

Hunter + Miner -- Material --> Crafter -- Product --> Hunter+Miner (cyclical)

Or rather, MA cannot allow this system, as then the economic system would be controlled not by MA but by the Crafters. All the complaints about these "whale" hunters making TT profits would be replaced by the exact same people complaining that these Crafters are siphoning off funds for their own profits.

The only way to fix this system truthfully is to "start again".

MA - if you do read these forums - I suggest creating a new instance, where when you go in the instance you can access the instance TT. This sells a weapon which (I'd suggest starting with low DPS) does a new damage type - lets call it Phase. In the instance, there are mobs, which can only be damaged by weapons which do Phase damage. They drop parts which can be crafted to new higher DPS Phase weapons, and also very rarely drop items which do more Phase DPS, so players can hunt the larger creatures in this instance. Then, when you get to the end of the lifespan of the Phase weapons (i.e. you hit level 100, where your cost per hour of using the level 100 items is at its maximum) you create a new instance which has a damage type "Ghost" or something.

Then, you modify regular mob stats so that perhaps imk2 only does 80% output (same cost) versus Atrox. To kill Atrox, you must use BLP.

This way you add more lifespan to your game. Because without it, the game really is coming to the end of it's life.

1. Skill level. Not just what it enables you to hunt (or mine, craft) but it should give you better loot, at least a little.

2. Game knowledge. Not that you figured out tricks like waves or other mechanics, but rather you know what drops what or where stuff is located, although this stuff is widely shared and it's hard to get much of an advantage here, at least for very long.

3. Gear. Yes, it should matter.

Not like 2.0

Quite some difference in post lengths on this topic - still, catering for all is good ...!

Aio - in text:

Aio said:

MA have artificially hard-capped the items currently in the game to control over-supply (saturation) by grinders; ...
I think that a slow drop rate for really good items has the advantage of not needing to change the system often and keeping mu high for longer. To reach such a point now after quite a few years of existence is maybe actually something MA has done well?

What MA have failed to create is a pipeline of items where A is superceded by B which is superceded by C etc... DPS being a constraint in that you can't have items which continually rise in DPS, because this also means the costs of hunting are continually rising until a point where it is impossible for people to compete with those who have extreme bankrolls ...

... I guess loot 2.0's key objective was to nerf those prime, unlimited items so that others could take their place.

Do you think others are going to take their place? A continuation of the Armatrix range that goes further past level 100 skill? Maybe people on the current top of the range don't want to say what better loots they are getting from what I guess is now an eco rating above 66% or whatever, but it looks like ESIs and other 'regular' goodies are still dropping.

The issue with that is, MA want full control - ...
The only way to fix this system truthfully is to "start again".

New instance idea...

Then, you modify regular mob stats so that perhaps imk2 only does 80% output (same cost) versus Atrox. To kill Atrox, you must use BLP.

This way you add more lifespan to your game. Because without it, the game really is coming to the end of it's life.

Interesting thoughts there - I'll have to think about this some more. The new cave with higher levels available is possibly a test to provide a new type of limited access via mu mats instead of missions, skills or pure ped buy-ins... If you still have to go through many kills for each boss, however, maybe this is still where dps counts on the foot soldiers and people should change to low kill cost on the bosses for better loot composition?

Click to expand...

I'm not necessarily saying MA HAVE done a good job, but it looks as if there is potential for a pretty good system overall here, which is why I wanted to ask a bit about basic characteristics of what should bring rewards in an MMORPG.

Smart players should reap the benefits over players who don't care.
A level 100 who's Killing big atrox with a Kats determination and not using An amp should get worse loot, then a level 60 player who uses a shagadi/imp trauma amp VI, simply because it's the better choice.
(Also when the level 60 player advises the level 100 player that using An amp on a Kats is smart, then the level 100 player shouldn't call the level 60 player names and brag that he holds the all time atrox Killing record)

Loot 2.1 Should occasionally hold benefits for players who have a Nice dps/dpp/ effective setup.
I would like to see non sib weaponry drop from time to time. And a way to upgrade it to sib using crafters materials and mining materials. These looted non sib items should also be customisable , so the colorers and texturers have extra jobs. That way a lot of professsions benefit. L-weapons should be totally craftable and not lootable. This way only ul non-sib loots, which doesn't matter for level 100 players, and sib is totally in the hands of crafters/miners.
Loot 2.2 - 3.0 should focus on bringing back item drops that are now missing. Atau/Btau drops for example. They are not a threat now that armatrix is here. Many others material drops, which focus on reviving crafting and mining. Also a rare item should be lootable by a single Hunter. Do not only put those in a Boss mob, with shared loot, but also in an eomon Young for example.
A loot version update should not give secrets away in how loot works. It is for the players to discover. If you pay attention you Will figure it out eventually.

Spawn said:

...
Loot 2.2 - 3.0 should focus on bringing back item drops that are now missing. Atau/Btau drops for example. They are not a threat now that armatrix is here.

A loot version update should not give secrets away in how loot works. It is for the players to discover. If you pay attention you Will figure it out eventually.

Click to expand...

If old crafting bps are not a threat now, they could still be if MA changes things again, surely? Also, if not worth crafting at the moment, why bring back the necessary rare mats for them; do you think people will craft with them again?

On the "secrets", people often stop something if they have learnt over time and then it gets changed and puts them back at near zero firm knowledge. I get fed up of that - more so if MA don't even explain they have changed stuff and I don't know about it. Continuing to sell and advertise stuff which has been nerfed (rings?) is even further on a bad path. I guess my point is that MA should at least announce that "changes have been made" to an area of the game - and preferably old knowledge should not be nullified at a stroke.

I've just had an interesting exchange of posts on the subject of hanging around waiting to shoot at boss mobs.

I say interesting because I am open to opinions I don't share - and it often gets me thinking, so thank you ...
I'll write here so as not to derail and also because I think this is a good place.

Waiting for a boss, waiting for a wave (whether slow or fast) - these are all surely allowable in the game mechanics and not an exploit. Using the armour with buffs on mob types which didn't decay it - also not an exploit - it is on offer in game and not a particularly clever stroke of genius to work out where certain tools may gain an advantage.
This element is where players surely compete against each other. MA needs a rake and players should be trying to use efficiencies to lower MA's take from them personally and maximise their mu gains if players are playing a battle over peds. If players just want to have fun or take more risks, then sure, be less efficient if that is required.
However, putting bonus loots up for grabs in shared loot mobs not everyone 'pays' for themselves is not a very good idea, in my opinion, but we are seeing this quite often and in new implementations too such as the new cave.

This is the 'wrong sort' of A and B knowledge advantage (see OP), but what is the right sort instead?