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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xen View Post
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    Gamblers paid markup, sometimes a lot, to gamble click on expensive bp's for many years before the ep bp's were introduced. And I think you were around to see that. That might drop a little if they took the ep bp's away or altered them, but now there are other possible gamble bp's that are much less expensive than before that I feel many gamblers would still click, and at least they include some materials that support the economy. People used to click Dynera bp's that used igni at over 150%, for just one example.
    Yes, they did, I agree. But it was never anywhere near the scale of EP crafting.

    Dyn BP costs 54PED/click (2.7x the highest cost/sec of EP crafting) yet on EL;

    Platonas Tromos Bios 2121 Globals 1150543 PED

    is the most "globalled" crafter.

    EP4 costs 20PED/click, and:

    Henry BabyOxide Ha 46316 Globals 12530227 PED

    that's 21.83x the global amount, and 10.89x the global value.

    It falls from there, 5th place on Dyn has just 943 globals (0.45x), compared with 5th place on EP (24786 globals, 0.54x).

    The stats are there, no matter what "oldschool" gamble BP (berets, scopes, lasers) EP absolutely blows them out the water. I'm not arguing the gamblers would leave; ofc not, gambling exists anywhere and everywhere. But the scale MA has allowed with EP4... considerably different.

    If you say that MA are making 5%, on TT loss, then on Henry they have made 626511PED ($62.5k) and on Platonas they have made 57527PED ($5.7k).

    Even if you look at the economic input (false MU), of igni being 150% yet so in demand, Platonas was contributing 21PED/click in MU. If you say he globalled on 1% of his clicks (very, very generous in your argument's favour) then he contributed 21*200k = 4.2M PED, or $42k USD, which is still 0.6x what Henry has paid MA.

    Economy and MA are intrinsic - if they make money, they can afford to raise the % returns. An ideal situation for MA is an infinitely small rake (infinitely small loss per cycle) on an infinitely large amount of players.

  2. #22
    Mutated Xen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aio View Post
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    Yes, they did, I agree. But it was never anywhere near the scale of EP crafting.

    Dyn BP costs 54PED/click (2.7x the highest cost/sec of EP crafting) yet on EL;

    Platonas Tromos Bios 2121 Globals 1150543 PED

    is the most "globalled" crafter.

    EP4 costs 20PED/click, and:

    Henry BabyOxide Ha 46316 Globals 12530227 PED

    that's 21.83x the global amount, and 10.89x the global value.

    It falls from there, 5th place on Dyn has just 943 globals (0.45x), compared with 5th place on EP (24786 globals, 0.54x).

    The stats are there, no matter what "oldschool" gamble BP (berets, scopes, lasers) EP absolutely blows them out the water. I'm not arguing the gamblers would leave; ofc not, gambling exists anywhere and everywhere. But the scale MA has allowed with EP4... considerably different.

    If you say that MA are making 5%, on TT loss, then on Henry they have made 626511PED ($62.5k) and on Platonas they have made 57527PED ($5.7k).

    Even if you look at the economic input (false MU), of igni being 150% yet so in demand, Platonas was contributing 21PED/click in MU. If you say he globalled on 1% of his clicks (very, very generous in your argument's favour) then he contributed 21*200k = 4.2M PED, or $42k USD, which is still 0.6x what Henry has paid MA.

    Economy and MA are intrinsic - if they make money, they can afford to raise the % returns. An ideal situation for MA is an infinitely small rake (infinitely small loss per cycle) on an infinitely large amount of players.
    But you can't match EP vs each other blueprint seperately, because previously gamblers used to click lots of different BP's, now most of them have gone to EP, most of the time. So it's really EP vs everything they used to click.
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  3. #23
    Elite Aio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xen View Post
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    But you can't match EP vs each other blueprint seperately, because previously gamblers used to click lots of different BP's, now most of them have gone to EP, most of the time. So it's really EP vs everything they used to click.
    Take a look for yourself. There are no figures, anywhere, combined or not, which match EP - and EP hasn't really been around that long either. Also I disagree it was that varied; Starman for example was the only one grinding berets.

  4. #24
    Elite Kerham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xen View Post
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    Gamblers paid markup, sometimes a lot, to gamble click on expensive bp's for many years before the ep bp's were introduced. And I think you were around to see that.
    For sure and I also did that when I still believed in chasing/forcing hofs. And I was paying in the worst days 165% on gazz for oa-101(L) to drone hunters who were then lecturing me and others like me on the forums on economics and math. A situation, may I say, injust.

    If we talk frontally about gambling, now it looks more decent. I don't dare and I won't dream of touching ep4, for me 20 ped per attempt is simply something which I won't do nomatter what. Same as I haven't shot down a single leviathan or whatnot comparable.

    If the volatility is anything comparable to what I tested for clicking on condition other bps, is decent. Of course you can see (I would presume) the money flying away at that stake, but I would guess that the majority of their runs have extremely low volatility, with a deep hole here and there to regulate the overall %. Still none of them affords to click continuously and all of them take long breaks from it from what I noticed. But for most of the buck, I would guess the bang is decent and comparable to decent casinos. Whereas before it looked more like rogue casinos, where 10% roi was quite often.

    Wherever you'd see a review of a casino, those who aknowledge the phenomenon and control it will always look at the conditions. Nice personnel, treats on the side, good atmosphere, loyalty program, decent rake, good return in the higher 90s, whatnot. EU performs well in this direction for those who take it like this. Sound and video effects, lively community and a bazillion of things to see and do on the side for a change. From this perspective, forcing this cathegory to MU is firstly economically risky. I personally disagree altogether to this existing ingame in the first place, but then is impossible to draw a line, there has to be there a threshold of responsibility on the player also and without any kind of risk there would be no EU. Ultimately if one wants to be absurd even hunting punies can be considered a form of gambling. I just hope MA to be responsible about it, to ensure maybe in future some cooling-off mechanisms (German regulations on the matter for example) which to give the player some time to maybe take a break from it etc

    I know I am quite off from the main discussion, but for me is the same topic. And with this I think I covered all my thoughts on EP itself.

    Then is the separate aspect of nanocubes themselves. The current gizmo cycle turns them into shrapnel, but until the shrapnel stage, they swallow animal oils, nova and blazar ensuring a, well, market to hunters. Then these bps are the main source of (L) clicks for ArMatrix, which lowers crafter-to-crafter MU. ArMatrix themselves as can be seen in Auktuma's chart cover a horde of mined resources and also introduced a large scale component market. Without nanocubes in this scheme, you'd have either too high profits for hunters, either too high profits for miners, at the progressive expense of those most unable to produce MU, the low hunters. Whereas with this whole scheme, the weapons' MU goes with the scale and ensures a much healthier cycle than before. Combined with the higher overal tt return % introduced with 2.0, insures that you need way less MU to cover, leaves room for profit, but at the expense of the necessity of a bigger (by comparison) bankroll needed than before, to stack oils. In same time, hunters are not anymore confined to a few select mobs and can just go and pursuit their fun and, given inspiration and luck, some profit. Lastly, skilling in crafting nowadays doesn't mean anymore to be forced to just click useless items which you throw in tt hoping that sometime in future it will pay off. You have the alternative to build it slowly and rather inexpensive from MU perspective so there is room for more crafters than before.

    I honestly can't see how this is not a good way. Surely it can be improved, but compared to the "good old times" when you had ul gun, no wiki, looted peds, no market for, like, anything and only chasing hofs, is a completely different soup. If they would only come up with improved tailoring, with like temporary buffs on decaying clothes or something to cover rest of loot and something to make space more interesting, it would be great.

  5. #25
    As was stated by Xen, people will still click wether it's EP or not, the issue is that EP and Nanocubes do nothing for the game and are an exact copy of a casino slot machine, which is a short term way of making $ but does nothing for long-term stability of gameplay.

    Slot Machine:
    - Walk into casino.
    - Go to bank machine.
    - Withdraw cash.
    - Put cash into slot machine.
    - Press button.
    - Repeat.
    - Hope for jackpot.

    EP Crafting:
    - Login to Entropia.
    - Go to Trade Terminal.
    - Purchase Nanocubes.
    - Put Nanocubes into crafting machine.
    - Press button.
    - Repeat.
    - Hope for HOF.

    There's one crucial step missing from the EP Crafting equation that even the ArMatrix BPs have and that's participating in another activity, wether it be Hunting, Mining or Trading/Buying from Auction. This stimulates the economy and the price of resources go up turning crafting into more of a manufacture to SELL (we will then see shops get used, more trading, more business) instead of manufacture to HOF.

    By the way, ArMatrix BPs are clicked because the weapons are good, not because they use nanocubes.

    I don't blame anyone for pumping in insane amounts of cash to play the Entropia's version of a Slot Machine. That slot machine used to not get so many clicks but the overall market health was much better as well which is what drives this game, the Real-Cash-Economy that is suffering from this implementation.

  6. #26
    Elite Kerham's Avatar
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    The health of that economy were gamblers buying resources to gamble (for example, on tailoring), because tailoring itself had no actual output in economy as it doesn't have today. That is not healthy economy, that is unsustainable punishing of one single cathegory of players.

  7. #27
    I would just like to point out that in your signature you "Wanting to Buy" a crafted tailoring item:





    Tailoring and any manufacturing that involves loot, not purchased TT items has a direct effect on the economy.

    By the way, there's one on auction right now (not the colour and texture you're looking for though).

  8. #28
    Mutated mastermesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Power View Post
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    As was stated by Xen, people will still click wether it's EP or not, the issue is that EP and Nanocubes do nothing for the game and are an exact copy of a casino slot machine, which is a short term way of making $ but does nothing for long-term stability of gameplay.

    - Login to Entropia.
    - Go to Trade Terminal.
    - Purchase Ammo/Probes/Tree Resource Gathering Tool, etc.
    - Put Tool that was purchased to use
    - Press button.
    - Repeat.
    - Hope for HOF.

    Remove the probes from the TT and make them craftable, and then we can change things a bit... Also remove the ammo and make them craftable. Hell why we are at it lets remove the sweat tool and make it craftable and L too?

    If Explosives are craftable, lets make the other ammo types craftable too. Perhaps just remove ammo from the trade terminal and make you have to go through the webshop to buy ammo?

    Hell, why not just remove the TT all together and make it all soul bound?
    Last edited by mastermesh; 09-28-2017 at 10:21.

  9. #29
    Elite Kerham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Power View Post
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    Tailoring and any manufacturing that involves loot, not purchased TT items has a direct effect on the economy.
    You didn't crafted once, did you? Let's consider the MU calculation from Eu-wiki corect. 15,6 tt/ click, 0,7MU. You need to click it consistently to reach both the expected tt return at high skills (90%) and the expected chance of success. Let's be optimistic and say 30% CoS. You also need to stack the materials and buy them by thousands of pieces to avoid buying materials for 2-3 clicks at 350%.

    So per 1k clicks:

    Time to manufacture: circa 1 hour and 10 minutes.
    TT cost: 15600 ped
    MU cost: 700 ped
    expected tt return: 14040
    expected number of items: 300
    expected tt/item: 46,8 (partly residue, partly item, partly resources. Let's consider for sake of math is 100% item)
    expected loss: 2260 (tt+MU) (2k. in 1 hour! and we're using very conservative MU from eu-wiki)
    expected MU/item: 7,53 (again, see above, I would guess it closer to 10 to be able to sell, actually should be 'round 20 to have any hope at some break even)

    excpected sales/day: ?????????? (I know there is ONE beret on auction, is there for few days already).

    expected profit: well, kind of nothing, we only measured the effort to break even..

    And that is ONE day of auction, ONE HOUR of crafting. As I said, you never touched crafting in your life, you just have opinions.

  10. #30
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    EP was an option in BP crafting, right?
    You choose what you want to craft. Dont hate EP or EP crafters.

    And adding nanocube to certain BP crafting is like, paying some PED or AMMO (without markup) + other materials with MU to craft. So simple.This is how I see them.

    Don't bring in some reason just because you have tons of of components in your storage, hoping MA will add them as main crafting components. You want get rich fast right?

    Even you are unhappy on my comments, if I am MA, I want to put some % of craft materials without MU and easy to get, what should I replaced with nanocube?

    AMMO or PED.
    So pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee get rid of nanocubes.... and replace them with AMMOs.
    PED is better! Make most players to depo.

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