Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update

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[h=3]Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update[/h]
One of MindArk’s primary long-term goals is to make Entropia Universe as affordable and entertaining as possible for all participants. Toward that end, MindArk is continually experimenting with various adjustments to in-game systems, with an eye toward lowering cost to play while maintaining a reasonable level of revenue that enables continued development and marketing of Entropia Universe.

Reductions in Cost to Play
On September 11th, we initiated a temporary test in which the MindArk fee for hunting was lowered significantly. In the long term, we hope that a lower MindArk fee will result in increased overall activity and new participant retention, and thereby compensate for the lower short-term revenue. We plan to continue experimenting with these revenue settings in the near future to gather more data.

Early data show positive results from those experiments:
  • Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 98.6% on average.
  • Hunters with turnover between 10000 and 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 97.05% on average.
  • Accounts created in 2017 have enjoyed returns of 96.94% on average since the changes implemented on Sept. 11.

As noted in a previous Developer Notes, Loot 2.0 drastically lowered the costs for armor decay and healing, which we can now confirm has led to a substantial increase in the usage of those mechanics. This is an example of the type of positive changes we are hoping to identify and implement in other systems: changes that benefit participants (in terms of lower cost to play) as well as MindArk’s revenue, resulting in a better overall gameplay experience and growth of Entropia Universe.

Loot Distribution Changes
As many participants have already noticed, changes have recently been made to hunting loot distribution, specifically regarding loot volatility and loot sizes. The overall net hunting return was not affected by these changes, but rather the frequency and size of various loot outcomes as a means of promoting more interesting and exciting loot outcomes and removing some of the more frustrating outcomes that were previously possible (especially on larger creatures).

Effects of Critical Hits/Damage on Loot
Finally, we have noticed several misconceptions in recent community discussions regarding Critical Hits that we would like to clarify. Critical Hits do not have a direct impact on loot value calculations per se. Since loot is now based on the actual cost to kill a creature in Loot 2.0, dealing more damage via critical hits (or by having higher damage per pec) does result in smaller loot events for a given creature, but this effect is directly proportional to the lower cost to kill and allows more creatures to be killed (i.e. more loot events) for a given amount of PED spent. Also, the composition of loot improves in such cases and results in a lower proportion of Shrapnel in loot. In other words, the use of items or consumables that provide increased Critical Hit Chance or Critical Damage can never have a negative effect on loot returns.



Originally Posted Here
 
Early data show positive results from those experiments:
  • Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 98.6% on average.
  • Hunters with turnover between 10000 and 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 97.05% on average.

I don't believe in personal loot pool, but isn't this proof that personal loot pool exists :scratch2:
 
funny. today i make a thread about asking and they deliver a few hours later. ty MA

and thank you very much for stating what my observations have shown and what i was preaching since quite some time (in regards to how dpp is working now). my observations were correct in every single point.
 
I don't believe in personal loot pool, but isn't this proof that personal loot pool exists :scratch2:
How so?

This just shows that the people who grind the hardest are usually the ones running the better setups because they've invested more in their setup and are savvier, and as a result are also experiencing higher returns on average than players who have invested less, are less savvy, and usually are less dedicated as well.

Seems pretty straight forward to me, they're trying to show that the uber grinders are, in fact, experiencing very fair return rates considering the kind of markup they can hunt for, not to mention shrapnel making up most of the loot and converting directly at 100:101 ratio..
 
Seems more you play the game is trying to compensate you more or that Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 (16 days) are most efficient hunters in the game.
 
Seems more you play the game is trying to compensate you more or that Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 (16 days) are most efficient hunters in the game.

It's the second one... :duh:
 
Any comments on whats going on with the bad lag on many servers ingame? As a daily user this is the worst lag i have experienced since i can remember.

No its not my internet, I am playing on 350MBs/sec and latency of ~20msec or less outside of the game.
Usually ingame lag would directly show under spikes in latency. However this past week it is different. Switching tools is super laggy and no apparent latency spikes along with lag issues. Or at least its not showing with ingame latency meter.

Hunting is barely doable on many servers. And many other players are reporting the same results over the last week or so.

Help would be greatly appreciated and probably urgently needed on this as many participants are logging out or simply not playing until this is fixed.
 
How so?

This just shows that the people who grind the hardest are usually the ones running the better setups because they've invested more in their setup and are savvier, and as a result are also experiencing higher returns on average than players who have invested less, are less savvy, and usually are less dedicated as well.

Seems pretty straight forward to me, they're trying to show that the uber grinders are, in fact, experiencing very fair return rates considering the kind of markup they can hunt for, not to mention shrapnel making up most of the loot and converting directly at 100:101 ratio..

Actually, this doesn't read like "most efficient hunters = highest returns" at all.

I know plenty of people with low dpp setups turning over high ped, whom would fall into this >50k bracket. If (as you assume) this would be pure high efficiency, they would artificially skew the return % lower.

What the statement actually reads (to me) is that, MA are identifying what cycle amounts are appropriate in identifying loot. I.e. >50k turnover, they expect >98, >10k >97, and all >96.

They've been pretty clear that dpp (or eff, whatever you wanna go with) only affects loot composition (by 7% min/max) and now they've highlighted that crit bonuses only boost this composition factor.
 
Actually, this doesn't read like "most efficient hunters = highest returns" at all.

I know plenty of people with low dpp setups turning over high ped, whom would fall into this >50k bracket. If (as you assume) this would be pure high efficiency, they would artificially skew the return % lower.

What the statement actually reads (to me) is that, MA are identifying what cycle amounts are appropriate in identifying loot. I.e. >50k turnover, they expect >98, >10k >97, and all >96.

They've been pretty clear that dpp (or eff, whatever you wanna go with) only affects loot composition (by 7% min/max) and now they've highlighted that crit bonuses only boost this composition factor.

http://www.entropialife.com/TopHunters.aspx
if you go to this page and look at the top hunters you will note almost all of them are running very eco setups for their heavy grinding

there are exceptions, just like there are also some very eco players who grind less, but overall, the players grinding the hardest are on average running setups that are more efficient, and getting slightly higher average returns as a result.

dpp, excluding crit, does not only affect loot composition, it affects avg return rate by 7%, from 0-100% eff is what they said.
 
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Great changes!! Team and solo hunts has been alot more fun the last couple of weeks.

Overall return may not have been better then normal, but sharing a few 4-digits with friends beats that usual 90-95% dull experience. Keep it up. This loot system is a much better advertisement for the game :)

IMO
 
[h=3]Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update[/h]

Early data show positive results from those experiments:
  • Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 98.6% on average.
  • Hunters with turnover between 10000 and 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 97.05% on average.
  • Accounts created in 2017 have enjoyed returns of 96.94% on average since the changes implemented on Sept. 11.

Originally Posted Here

First off, thanks for the update!
Just a slight point about that list; there are presumably a huge number of players who don't fit any category there, namely those with a daily turnover of less than 600 peds or so a day since the test began, but have been around a lot longer than just this year!
I wonder what those returns are ???

It's also nice to see discussion on critical hits, for example, being commented on by MA to clear up some misunderstandings :). Please continue to show you have been reading our discussions MA, ty!!!
 
[h=3]
Early data show positive results from those experiments:
  • Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 98.6% on average.
  • Hunters with turnover between 10000 and 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 97.05% on average.
  • Accounts created in 2017 have enjoyed returns of 96.94% on average since the changes implemented on Sept. 11.

still no definition of what the hell turnover means... Is that the amount of ped they deposited, the number of ped they spent in decay, the amount of ped spent in ammo, or the amount of tt value they turned in when they 'turned it over' to the tt?

Also, where the hell did #13 go? We got #12 and a #12 Follow Up but no #13 Dev Note?
 
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Lol i bring the average down by quite a bit
 
thisisfine.jpg
 
Guys, great to see you're doing and trying and experimenting, but can you please double check if the servers themselves can actually carry this new calculations? Maybe something was overlooked, otherwise I can't explain myself the sudden change in performance once 2.0 was introduced.

http://www.entropialife.com/TopHunters.aspxdpp, excluding crit, does not only affect loot composition, it affects avg return rate by 7%, from 0-100% eff is what they said.

It doesn't affect avg return rate by 7%, you misunderstood it. The impact of eff is 7%, that doesn't equal a variation of return itself of 7%. I've posted before this example: if a party has 7% of places in parliament (among other parties ofc) and the parliament is discussing a tax modification of 2,5%, respective party has a power of 7% influencing where the tax level will go, within the respective bracket of 2,5%. From published stats in these dev notes, the bracket seems to be of around 3% min_max, mainly turnover based, which would translate into a combination of dpp and dps, going to one or the other based on mob, skill level etc

That is to mean, you don't need to be afraid that an eff of say 50 would decrease your avg return rate by.. what?.. compared to an eff of 70 (which is anyway out of reach until a certain skill level). What you should be afraid of is unmaxed weapons and too low turnover per respective cathegory. So the worst hunter ever nowadays would use karma killer at lvl20, naked with ek-2600 to kill 10 argos 30 drones and 2 leviathans, and then logout.

still no definition of what the hell turnover means... Is that the amount of ped they deposited, the number of ped they spent in decay, the amount of ped spent in ammo, or the amount of tt value they turned in when they 'turned it over' to the tt?

You can't seriously be asking this. Decay+ammo, where ammo is in fact decay too. Shot in mobs, not in the sky in pvp area.
 
Any comments on whats going on with the bad lag on many servers ingame? As a daily user this is the worst lag i have experienced since i can remember.

yes, pls do something about the lag. Everything stops for 2ish seconds every minute or so.
 
Yeah, about that lag. I can't be bothered to log in.
 
Any comments on whats going on with the bad lag on many servers ingame? As a daily user this is the worst lag i have experienced since i can remember.

No its not my internet, I am playing on 350MBs/sec and latency of ~20msec or less outside of the game.
Usually ingame lag would directly show under spikes in latency. However this past week it is different. Switching tools is super laggy and no apparent latency spikes along with lag issues. Or at least its not showing with ingame latency meter.

Hunting is barely doable on many servers. And many other players are reporting the same results over the last week or so.

Help would be greatly appreciated and probably urgently needed on this as many participants are logging out or simply not playing until this is fixed.


I spoke to Support on the website chat and was told they have received several reports of lag. I expected to hear of many more than "several" and would encourage others to also use the webpage based chat or submit a ticket explaining just how bad the lag is.
 
they have received several reports of lag.

In other words, they don't know what the fuck is going on in their own game and have to be told via support tickets that their shit is all fucked up.

Same as it ever was.
 
Thank you so much for the update PLEASE keep them regular - we have a community manager after all.... right?

I at first was liking the changes, but quickly my loot fell off like usual. The hope was in less armor/fap decay.
Problems remain with loot items having zero mu and huge swings of volitity exist.

And as posted above, what about the large group of people that go through say 300-1000 peds? or even 5k peds? Your figures start off at 10k, that's pretty high. I still have never maintained 97% or 90% for that matter for more than a couple of days. What's my return after a week to 1 month? 0-10%. Deposit 100 bucks, have 1-10 dollars at end of month. I would LOVE to see myself have 80 even, but I don't so I still keep my distance from this game.

I remain hopeful for the future and involved from a distance.
 
It is great that you adjust to lower the fees, even if temporary.
Some questions:
1. Is the temporary test over or still ongoing?
2. Is "returns on average" including costs (repairs)? does it include MU? if so, your MU figures cannot be correct as the auction data is off, there are many items which show MU because of historical sales but really cannot be sold / MU is way lower.
3. Smilgs has enjoyed a tt return of 92.66% since 11th of September and 91.82% before that, the only higher return was when not using the crit buffs for a week - strange coincidence? Losing 15000 peds per month with 39000 peds just before is just as frustrating of an experience...
[h=3]Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update[/h]
...
Reductions in Cost to Play
On September 11th, we initiated a temporary test in which the MindArk fee for hunting was lowered significantly. ...
Early data show positive results from those experiments:
  • Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 98.6% on average.
...
Loot Distribution Changes
... removing some of the more frustrating outcomes that were previously possible (especially on larger creatures).

Effects of Critical Hits/Damage on Loot
...
In other words, the use of items or consumables that provide increased Critical Hit Chance or Critical Damage can never have a negative effect on loot returns.
 
well at least i was right , buffs are just for dps and to lower your defense cost

@smilgs silly goose get out of lands :))
 
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[h=3]
Early data show positive results from those experiments:
  • Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 98.6% on average.
  • Hunters with turnover between 10000 and 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 97.05% on average.
  • Accounts created in 2017 have enjoyed returns of 96.94% on average since the changes implemented on Sept. 11.

I just don't understand why you don't list the the return for the majority of the players who been around for long but play for way less than a 10000 ped turnover in 16 days. That info was missing last time you posted info regarding this. Just ubers and newly created accounts.

Also, is time a factor. Do you need to reach a certain turnover within a certain time to reach these returns?

I play for way less and I can say clearly that I'm rarely close to these returns.

So please, can you include stats for the poor and rl busy middle class to? :)
 
I just don't understand why you don't list the the return for the majority of the players who been around for long but play for way less than a 10000 ped turnover in 16 days. That info was missing last time you posted info regarding this. Just ubers and newly created accounts.

Also, is time a factor. Do you need to reach a certain turnover within a certain time to reach these returns?

I play for way less and I can say clearly that I'm rarely close to these returns.

So please, can you include stats for the poor and rl busy middle class to? :)

MA doesnt want to state that group as they are probably way below 90%. And that doesnt look good for player retention.
 
I just don't understand why you don't list the the return for the majority of the players who been around for long but play for way less than a 10000 ped turnover in 16 days. That info was missing last time you posted info regarding this. Just ubers and newly created accounts.

Also, is time a factor. Do you need to reach a certain turnover within a certain time to reach these returns?

I play for way less and I can say clearly that I'm rarely close to these returns.

So please, can you include stats for the poor and rl busy middle class to? :)

your returns don't strictly get any better or worse from playing less, just more volatile since the sample size will be smaller.

ex: I log on in the morning, clear feffoid cave, hit a 500ped hof, 29000% return rate :eyecrazy:

ex2: I log on in the morning, clear feffoid cave, get no multis, 50% return rate :scratch2:

repeat this process a million times and you will most likely average out to somewhere around one of the figures given, most likely, depending on what kind of setup you've got

I think the reason they didn't put a metric for below 10k cycled in the past two and a half weeks is because they consider those players to be small time/softcore players and decided to put information on how new players were doing instead, to represent this group.
 
What's my return after a week to 1 month? 0-10%. Deposit 100 bucks, have 1-10 dollars at end of month. I would LOVE to see myself have 80 even, but I don't so I still keep my distance from this game.

You should measure your return versus total consumption not versus initial investition. If you start with 1k and have 7 runs at 90%, it will be:

consumption: 1000+900+810+729+656+590+531=5216
return: 900+810+729+656+590+531+478=4694
%: 4694/5216= 90%

Absolute value= -522
Apparent % = 47,8% while in effect you have constant 90%

That's why bankroll, dps, mob choice, turnover speed etc are important factors.
 
You should measure your return versus total consumption not versus initial investition. If you start with 1k and have 7 runs at 90%, it will be:

consumption: 1000+900+810+729+656+590+531=5216
return: 900+810+729+656+590+531+478=4694
%: 4694/5216= 90%

Absolute value= -522
Apparent % = 47,8% while in effect you have constant 90%

That's why bankroll, dps, mob choice, turnover speed etc are important factors.

I totally understand that is how it works, but it's the amount of time said bankroll lasts is the problem. As we all know it doesn't work nice and tidy like your example. I'm not sure we want to to be nice and tidy either to tell the truth. My experience remains that I deposit $80 and it lasts a few days maybe 1 week. Not sure how that's 90% return. I guess the math says it is, but when those 8 runs last 2 days - it's too expensive.
What I want to see is I put $100 in on the first of the month, and by the last day of the month I have 8-900 peds worth left. I'll dream on.
 
What i have noticed is that loot swings are wider now then a month earlier. While this might not affect people with decent bankroll, it seems going back to the higher swings. Also avg data does not mean much when a few people with higher % returns due to bigger hof sizes could easily offset those who haven't got any.

A better categorization would be how many people are getting 90%, 95%, 97%+ returns within the subgroup of those turning over 10k,25k,50k. Its easy to put figures which speak +ve for a given duration but imo this is misleading at best.

Overall a big thumbs up for communication and the fact that you guys are taking things seriously and being more transparent then you have ever been. An increase in % return is very important for people who cycle a higher amount and will serve as a much needed motivation. The theory presented seems perfect, however your data analysis needs more work imho.
 
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