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Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update

NPV said:
Random 500 PED gear people always searched for markup, always. They will do even better now.

Maybe adapt means, try different mob? Go hunt markup? At your volume, 105% would be fucking epic amount of PEDs :laugh:

I understand what you are saying, but people with a lot cheaper gear are doing better. Maybe game knowledge > VISA?

EDIT: Almost forgot. Maybe shooting same mob @ your LA isnt the best way to play the game? Quantity (big volume, lots of globals, nr1 hunter) vs "quality" (shit loot, shit markup, shit rares, total shit mob nobody else would hunt)
Click to expand...

Just switch to another mob? Nah! Its too easy! Better buy useless ring!:laugh:
 
girtsn said:
1. like 75% of loot is crapnel, 105% is quite difficult to imagine on decent turnover
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I would think the part with "decent turnover" should be rethought. As long as there is no visible mechanism to close a circle (say, lowbies would fuel midlvls with *something*, midlevels would fuel ubers and lowbies, and ubers would fuel lowbies and midlvls), you can file it under experiments. For the moment I can see some distinct things introduced low to mid, like nova and fragments exclusive in low mobs, carabok hides needed on Ark to progress uniforms etc. As long as this is not (anymore) visible for ubers' output (save for a few oils, ESIs and general rares which themselves kind of lack purpose now), maybe tune down your activity?

As long as you keep doing same thing on same mob and same place, MA will gather that you're happy with the current state of things.
 
Dunno what to say about this loot 2.0 but my recent return is horrible. I've been grinding kerbies, argo, longu for quite a while now coz i am working on my iron mission and i am using either batsim or armatrix bp-10 more recently or equipement that is usualy in the 2.87 eco range and i am getting loot as low as 50-60% return tt. I've had a run a couple of days ago with 3 globals on kerberos and still lost in tt return. If it was just exceptions for these really bad returns i wouldn't even bother with it but this is just madness...
 
aka_fr0st said:
Dunno what to say about this loot 2.0 but my recent return is horrible. I've been grinding kerbies, argo, longu for quite a while now coz i am working on my iron mission and i am using either batsim or armatrix bp-10 more recently or equipement that is usualy in the 2.87 eco range and i am getting loot as low as 50-60% return tt. I've had a run a couple of days ago with 3 globals on kerberos and still lost in tt return. If it was just exceptions for these really bad returns i wouldn't even bother with it but this is just madness...
Click to expand...

I feel ya there. Just did Molisk I-IV this week (6600 molisk) and was doing 1000 PED runs in the hopes of getting close to this fabled 98% return they are talking nonsense about. Figured it would be the best way to test just going for a lower end mob in a dense spawn and shooting non stop for several hours.

Total of 8 globals (mostly 20 PED) and 1 Nem. foot guards. 1000 PED loss. Average run 80-90% return, think I had literally one run where I was just over 100%.
 
Well, considering all ARmatrix guns are over 118% markup your losses get heavily amplified when you are paying for high markup weapons 1-2 times per hunt.
If you are constantly losing on a mob then you might want to try some other mob at similar health/damage levels, I might recommend Foul (Fort Troy), Combibo (billy's spaceship) or even Cornundacauda (Fort Zeus) as they have similar dangerlevels.

How many shots do you need to kill one of the mobs, If you pay high markup and need to fire a lot of shots to kill a certain mob you will lose out more on the cost of the gun since you do not cycle enough to cover the markup of said gun.



aka_fr0st said:
Dunno what to say about this loot 2.0 but my recent return is horrible. I've been grinding kerbies, argo, longu for quite a while now coz i am working on my iron mission and i am using either batsim or armatrix bp-10 more recently or equipement that is usualy in the 2.87 eco range and i am getting loot as low as 50-60% return tt. I've had a run a couple of days ago with 3 globals on kerberos and still lost in tt return. If it was just exceptions for these really bad returns i wouldn't even bother with it but this is just madness...
Click to expand...
 
Nick Seventia said:
Well, considering all ARmatrix guns are over 118% markup your losses get heavily amplified when you are paying for high markup weapons 1-2 times per hunt.
If you are constantly losing on a mob then you might want to try some other mob at similar health/damage levels, I might recommend Foul (Fort Troy), Combibo (billy's spaceship) or even Cornundacauda (Fort Zeus) as they have similar dangerlevels.

How many shots do you need to kill one of the mobs, If you pay high markup and need to fire a lot of shots to kill a certain mob you will lose out more on the cost of the gun since you do not cycle enough to cover the markup of said gun.
Click to expand...

You are wrong about the armatrix efficiency. Even with 120% markup, the final eco is still 2.9x. You can check this on wiki for the exact number
 
aka_fr0st said:
You are wrong about the armatrix efficiency. Even with 120% markup, the final eco is still 2.9x. You can check this on wiki for the exact number
Click to expand...

In loot 2.0 Efficiency only accounts for 7% of your TT-return. Even if Armatrix has high dmg/pec after markup loot is 93% based on costs and Mindark has stated that markup is not compensated for in loot.
 
Baldurn said:
In loot 2.0 Efficiency only accounts for 7% of your TT-return. Even if Armatrix has high dmg/pec after markup loot is 93% based on costs and Mindark has stated that markup is not compensated for in loot.
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Efficiency does not affect TT return, only loot composition (what items you get) as stated by MindArk.
 
Nop.
Charlie|MindArk MindArk Official 09-29-2017, 14:26
DPP affects loot composition and critical hit/damage etc affect the DPP.
Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%.
Click to expand...

In effect it means imk2 got special treatment as it got best efficiency for whatever reason. Plus it also still preserves the best dpp meaning the best chance to loot something good by loot composition.
Darth Revan said:
Efficiency does not affect TT return, only loot composition (what items you get) as stated by MindArk.
Click to expand...
 
Eco has nothing to do with the purchase cost of a gun, It just means that the ammo and decay of the gun is more efficient than another, will still lose you peds if you pay high markup for said eco.


aka_fr0st said:
You are wrong about the armatrix efficiency. Even with 120% markup, the final eco is still 2.9x. You can check this on wiki for the exact number
Click to expand...
 
girtsn said:
Nop.


In effect it means imk2 got special treatment as it got best efficiency for whatever reason. Plus it also still preserves the best dpp meaning the best chance to loot something good by loot composition.
Click to expand...

Yeah would be so much better if we had all items equal and there is only the same stats on everything! lul
 
common every other gun is +/- equal compared to it (90% compared to 50%-70% variance of others). it already had an advantage in dpp which stayed, what was the point of also increasing its efficiency to so much? especially as they justified introducing new better weapons was one of the points of efficiency. the best one is already made right, and it has been the best since it was introduced. nice way forward and gz to imk2 owners.
Ekholm said:
Yeah would be so much better if we had all items equal and there is only the same stats on everything! lul
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Having read all the posts I see IMO, two things. One, it seems that one must find the right mob to hunt which may not be the mob that offers the best loot just better returns. I was hunting kerrbies for the longest time and doing ok and then it just stopped so I had to look elsewhere. (BTW I never did make any money on them just was longer between depos ) Two, I see that almost all of the posts are about bad loot, however is it possible that the players that are doing ok do not want to share that information ? If someone does then the first thing that will happen is everyone will look them up on tracker and see what they are hunting and start hunting that mob. Personally I think the more a mob is hunted the better the loot pool for that mob, but I could be wrong.
 
girtsn said:
common every other gun is +/- equal compared to it (90% compared to 50%-70% variance of others). it already had an advantage in dpp which stayed, what was the point of also increasing its efficiency to so much? especially as they justified introducing new better weapons was one of the points of efficiency. the best one is already made right, and it has been the best since it was introduced. nice way forward and gz to imk2 owners.
Click to expand...

the efficiency value imk2 was given was based on its dpp value, just like all the other efficiency values given to weapons

they didn't suddenly grant imk2 anything it didn't already offer and it would have been messed up if they arbitrarily gave it a lower efficiency rating manually, so i don't really understand why this would be worth complaining about

yeah, imk2 is a weapon with great eco, which is why it has an expensive pricetag, it's also an item that is traded regularly so if you'd like to use it yourself i'm sure you could find one to buy next time an owner decides they're taking a break from the game
 
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Darkaruki said:
the efficiency value imk2 was given was based on its dpp value, just like all the other efficiency values given to weapons

they didn't suddenly grant imk2 anything it didn't already offer and it would have been messed up if they arbitrarily gave it a lower efficiency rating manually, so i don't really understand why this would be worth complaining about

yeah, imk2 is a weapon with great eco, which is why it has an expensive pricetag, it's also an item that is traded regularly so if you'd like to use it yourself i'm sure you could find one to buy next time an owner decides they're taking a break from the game
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What I was about to say.

They could have given imk2 70% eff. instead, but that would lead to all other guns have way less, and you would probably not be happy about that either.

I recommend what Darkaruki says, buy one yourself. There is at least one up for sale already on forum.
 
Ekholm said:
What I was about to say.

They could have given imk2 70% eff. instead, but that would lead to all other guns have way less, and you would probably not be happy about that either.

I recommend what Darkaruki says, buy one yourself. There is at least one up for sale already on forum.
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I think the gripe is even with a brand new loot system, MA haven't managed to move the game on from a weapon which was introduced in 2001. New players starting in 2005 have the same barriers as new players starting in 2017, the only difference is that those barriers are further from their reach.

Of course, there's the argument that they need to maintain investor confidence, which I somewhat agree with, but then on the other hand you have the decimation of crit buff item prices, hangars, compets, shops, land ares (exclusive mobs), all of which haven't exactly been maintained or rewarded.
 
Nick Seventia said:
Eco has nothing to do with the purchase cost of a gun, It just means that the ammo and decay of the gun is more efficient than another, will still lose you peds if you pay high markup for said eco.
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you're looking at it from the wrong perspective; example: tt gun (whichever u prefer) has a certain tt value and u burn it down completely dealing x ammount of damage. same tt gun imagine yourself paying +10 tt for it and dealing the same ammount of damage of course. GET THE POINT BRO? simple. the decay of the item becomes its tt value + MU. that's how markup based ECO is calculated.

Baldurn said:
In loot 2.0 Efficiency only accounts for 7% of your TT-return. Even if Armatrix has high dmg/pec after markup loot is 93% based on costs and Mindark has stated that markup is not compensated for in loot.
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read the above quote. i did not say for a minute that i should get more or less loot depending on the weapon i use. as far as i am concerned, this is a myth in loot 2.0.

for me, aham... FOR ME, what matters is that i at least don't waste peds by using unefficient shit (unECO; and btw efficiency is just a different measurement for ECO); to clarify for some that clearly don't understand simple basics, i prefer killing 1000 mobs for 1000 peds, rather than using GetWalletRekt Rail Gun (L) Special Edition (C) which as we all know has 0.001 ECO so you kill 1 mob for 1000 ped decay.
 
Darkaruki said:
the efficiency value imk2 was given was based on its dpp value, just like all the other efficiency values given to weapons

they didn't suddenly grant imk2 anything it didn't already offer and it would have been messed up if they arbitrarily gave it a lower efficiency rating manually, so i don't really understand why this would be worth complaining about

yeah, imk2 is a weapon with great eco, which is why it has an expensive pricetag, it's also an item that is traded regularly so if you'd like to use it yourself i'm sure you could find one to buy next time an owner decides they're taking a break from the game
Click to expand...

so many people don't understand that efficiency is actualy ECO/dpp whatever the hell you want to call it. it is just a different measurement of something that existed as a value ever since the game was created. i am shocked that people think it's something different and that someone with vast experience of the game thinks imk2 has great dpp AND great efficiency :laugh:
 
girtsn said:
common every other gun is +/- equal compared to it (90% compared to 50%-70% variance of others). it already had an advantage in dpp which stayed, what was the point of also increasing its efficiency to so much? especially as they justified introducing new better weapons was one of the points of efficiency. the best one is already made right, and it has been the best since it was introduced. nice way forward and gz to imk2 owners.
Click to expand...


For the record, i shot the weekend with t6 imk2. Cycled 12 hr a day 2 days i did teams and shared. I never looted an esi or l items.
Setups used
Mk 1 sight and scope
Candy cane
Summer ring with 2% crit
Christmas with 15% reload

Imk2 t6 all accuracy enh hyper 204
Imk2 t6 all accuracy with rdi alpha
Imk2 no enh rdi alpha
Imk2 no enh hyper204
Imk2 t6 half dmg half accuracy hyper 204
Imk2 t6 half dmg half accuracy rdi alpha
Imk2 t6 all dmg tried both amps

Imk2 no enh or amp

I was up 1300 ped after a bit over 30hr shooting
Each run was 1500 ped ammo. I think i did aroud 15 or 20 runs
 
It seems you are suggesting MA are openly lying to us then.
Charlie|MindArk MindArk Official 09-29-2017, 14:26
DPP affects loot composition and critical hit/damage etc affect the DPP.
Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%.
Click to expand...
clearly they say that the effects of efficiency and dpp are now 2 different things, and that is why I say imk2 was best for dpp and then got way better after the introduction compared to everything else as it is best on dpp & efficiency

aka_fr0st said:
so many people don't understand that efficiency is actualy ECO/dpp whatever the hell you want to call it. it is just a different measurement of something that existed as a value ever since the game was created. i am shocked that people think it's something different and that someone with vast experience of the game thinks imk2 has great dpp AND great efficiency :laugh:
Click to expand...
 
girtsn said:
It seems you are suggesting MA are openly lying to us then.

clearly they say that the effects of efficiency and dpp are now 2 different things, and that is why I say imk2 was best for dpp and then got way better after the introduction compared to everything else as it is best on dpp & efficiency
Click to expand...

they are 2 things that are directly tied together. you can change the efficiency by changing the attachmentso n your gun but buffs dont change the efficiency. thats basically the only thing that makes them different. buffs can change dpp but not efficiency. otherwise nearly 100% the same.
 
looted 2 small esi's and some L items with 6.2% crit (limited to 5%) and 22% dmg increase, no enhancers, ares perfected
-250 ped from 30k ammo spent - would take tt+ anytime
but looking at the rares I got so far, seems getting more than before acquiring the easter ring so there is something about the loot composition likely
Raven Lunchbox said:
For the record, i shot the weekend with t6 imk2. Cycled 12 hr a day 2 days i did teams and shared. I never looted an esi or l items.
Click to expand...
 
girtsn said:
It seems you are suggesting MA are openly lying to us then.

Charlie|MindArk MindArk Official 09-29-2017, 14:26
DPP affects loot composition and critical hit/damage etc affect the DPP.
Efficiency directly affects average TT return by 0-7%.
Click to expand...

clearly they say that the effects of efficiency and dpp are now 2 different things, and that is why I say imk2 was best for dpp and then got way better after the introduction compared to everything else as it is best on dpp & efficiency
Click to expand...

It's just regular "creative" language.

What we all think would be a mathematical shift (e.g. with 2.5 dpp you get 75% shrap 25% oil, with 3.0 dpp you get 50% shrap 50% oil) is actually just terminology. Linzey wrote on some thread, better to think of it as higher dpp = more loot events = more chances of MU items.

While Eff difference between 0 and 100 = 7%, so difference in 90% eff and 70% eff = 20%, = 0.2*7, = 1.4% tt return difference.

Essentially they're not lying because there are two mechanisms, but they aren't be totally honest as Eff and DPP are directly linked.
 
Aio said:
Essentially they're not lying because there are two mechanisms, but they aren't be totally honest as Eff and DPP are directly linked.
Click to expand...

Maybe I assumed too much from this, but couldn't they have un-linked the 2 stats with the moment of release and as of now are free to create items with any efficiency vs. any dpp? At least that seems the implication of the last sentence, for not yet existing items - otherwise there was no point to mention "existing items" :)

A new Economy rating parameter will be introduced, on a scale of 1-100, that indicates the efficiency of a tool and which influences loot calculations. This change from the once dominant damage/pec model will provide the design team with more freedom to release exciting and interesting items with a wider range of damage output and special effects. For example, our team will have the ability to create powerful new items that provide access to challenging and exciting content without dramatically increasing cost to play. Existing items will be assigned Economy values that reflect their relative efficiency to one another and to the entire array of items in the universe.
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Me Really Never said:
they are 2 things that are directly tied together. you can change the efficiency by changing the attachmentso n your gun but buffs dont change the efficiency. thats basically the only thing that makes them different. buffs can change dpp but not efficiency. otherwise nearly 100% the same.
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If you are not calling amps a buff you may be right but adding an amp to some of my weapons increases the efficiency rating.
 
CozMoDan said:
If you are not calling amps a buff you may be right but adding an amp to some of my weapons increases the efficiency rating.
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Amp is not a buff :wise:
 
Raven Lunchbox said:
For the record, i shot the weekend with t6 imk2. Cycled 12 hr a day 2 days i did teams and shared. I never looted an esi or l items.
Setups used
Mk 1 sight and scope
Candy cane
Summer ring with 2% crit
Christmas with 15% reload

Imk2 t6 all accuracy enh hyper 204
Imk2 t6 all accuracy with rdi alpha
Imk2 no enh rdi alpha
Imk2 no enh hyper204
Imk2 t6 half dmg half accuracy hyper 204
Imk2 t6 half dmg half accuracy rdi alpha
Imk2 t6 all dmg tried both amps

Imk2 no enh or amp

I was up 1300 ped after a bit over 30hr shooting
Each run was 1500 ped ammo. I think i did aroud 15 or 20 runs
Click to expand...

probably because team/shared loot is horribly messed up right now and high eco just leeches off of everybody who's eco is lower than yours

kind of like loot 1.0 did except on a micro scale instead of a global scale

for some reason MA doesn't really seem to care, so if you own a lot of crit items or high eco ULs go ahead and go leech PED from people in shared loot :thumbup:
 
Darkaruki said:
probably because team/shared loot is horribly messed up right now and high eco just leeches off of everybody who's eco is lower than yours

kind of like loot 1.0 did except on a micro scale instead of a global scale

for some reason MA doesn't really seem to care, so if you own a lot of crit items or high eco ULs go ahead and go leech PED from people in shared loot :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Its allways been like that most eco gets more loot per ped spe t and leaching from others with shitty, nothing new for 2.0
 
krogfan said:
Its allways been like that most eco gets more loot per ped spe t and leaching from others with shitty, nothing new for 2.0
Click to expand...

I agree. I've only been playing for 2 years this month and am nearing Level 50 in my highest profession but I've participated in shared events for the fun and the chance to get something if I'm lucky. But, are we really complaining that someone who spent 100k+ on gear is able to loot nicer items more often than someone who has invested so much less? It's a real economy, with real cash, so why in the world would we expect it to be any different than the real world, in which, most cases show that it takes money to make money. Of course you can get lucky on a lottery ticket, but this isn't a lottery we're playing. If you spend the cash you should expect a better return and if you do not, you should just expect to occasionally get lucky, and be satisfied with that.

Why would you expect to win a drag race in a stock car, if you're going up against the guy that has $100,000 invested in a race car?
 
krogfan said:
Its allways been like that most eco gets more loot per ped spe t and leaching from others with shitty, nothing new for 2.0
Click to expand...

This is not true, loot size previously was generated based primarily on mob health and loot split between damage dealt made sense

Currently loot is generated largely based on costs incurred, as opposed to mob health, meaning that loot split between damage dealt does NOT make sense

Try shooting a mob that you kill in 2 shots with no crit, 1 shot with a crit for a few dozen kills.

It is very plainly visible that misses add to the average loot size and crits "deduct" from the average loot size, as a result of loot being based primarily on cost incurred.

Now, go to shared loot and miss some shots, you will get nothing for it despite having added to the loot's size by incurring costs on the mob.

Also, go to shared loot and get a crit or two and stop shooting, you will notice your share of the loot for that kill will be higher than it should be relative to the costs you incurred on that mob, because the loot is not being split based on what the loot is based off of (costs) but rather is being split based off of what the loot is not being based off of (damage).

I'm honestly having a hard time believing you do not understand this, but if you didn't, now you do.

Have fun making TT profit off of unsuspecting idiots at shared loot!
 
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