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Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update

Jhereg said:
Short answer is yes, on the same weapon.
Click to expand...

Hm okey, sounds a like stupid system to me, because should not the loot only be decided by the type mob?
So if a drag out the killing a mob that normally takes me 2 ped of ammo/decay to kill so it takes me 10 ped of ammo/decay I will on avarage get the loot of killing 5 of them?
 
billairboy said:
Hm okey, sounds a like stupid system to me, because should not the loot only be decided by the type mob?
So if a drag out the killing a mob that normally takes me 2 ped of ammo/decay to kill so it takes me 10 ped of ammo/decay I will on avarage get the loot of killing 5 of them?
Click to expand...

in theory yes, but your loot composition will be horrible and there are most likely some limitations in place as well.
 
Bertha Bot said:
[h=3]Developer Notes #14 - Loot 2.0 Update[/h]
One of MindArk’s primary long-term goals is to make Entropia Universe as affordable and entertaining as possible for all participants. Toward that end, MindArk is continually experimenting with various adjustments to in-game systems, with an eye toward lowering cost to play while maintaining a reasonable level of revenue that enables continued development and marketing of Entropia Universe.
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Point 1, we need a balance between fairness and competitive measurement/environment.
Not all players enjoy playing a fair game environment. It can be boring for some who prefer playing as competitive game environment.

MA, you can make it happen :)


Bertha Bot said:
Reductions in Cost to Play
On September 11th, we initiated a temporary test in which the MindArk fee for hunting was lowered significantly. In the long term, we hope that a lower MindArk fee will result in increased overall activity and new participant retention, and thereby compensate for the lower short-term revenue. We plan to continue experimenting with these revenue settings in the near future to gather more data.

Early data show positive results from those experiments:
  • Hunters with turnover of more than 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 98.6% on average.
  • Hunters with turnover between 10000 and 50000 PED since Sept. 11 have enjoyed returns of 97.05% on average.
  • Accounts created in 2017 have enjoyed returns of 96.94% on average since the changes implemented on Sept. 11.
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I just want to share here. During Longtooth Migration period, I cycled total 37k ped of ammo on Old Fred share loots (24k) & Longtooth mission (13k). At the end, my total return was 48k ped comprised of 39k ped & 9k ped respectively.

It seems like I got lucky with Old Fred giving me a huge global share but..... the Longtooth mission return was approximately 69%.

My conclusion was, I am unhappy because this game discourage players to do and completing mission within a short period of time. If I have to wait like few days or few months or years to complete a mission, waiting for the good and auspicious timing... I have no comment.


Bertha Bot said:
Loot Distribution Changes
As many participants have already noticed, changes have recently been made to hunting loot distribution, specifically regarding loot volatility and loot sizes. The overall net hunting return was not affected by these changes, but rather the frequency and size of various loot outcomes as a means of promoting more interesting and exciting loot outcomes and removing some of the more frustrating outcomes that were previously possible (especially on larger creatures).
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Previously, I have complained about no loots but it wasn't much frustration compared to evade, evade,evade.
I am definitely appreciated that no loots had been removed but how about the evades.

The evades was normal between Sep, what happened to Oct now? I am having so much of evades again... Do evades add up to the % or loot return ? I am not interested, statistically they do more harm than good...

Please review and do something about mobs evade.


Bertha Bot said:
Effects of Critical Hits/Damage on Loot
Finally, we have noticed several misconceptions in recent community discussions regarding Critical Hits that we would like to clarify. Critical Hits do not have a direct impact on loot value calculations per se. Since loot is now based on the actual cost to kill a creature in Loot 2.0, dealing more damage via critical hits (or by having higher damage per pec) does result in smaller loot events for a given creature, but this effect is directly proportional to the lower cost to kill and allows more creatures to be killed (i.e. more loot events) for a given amount of PED spent. Also, the composition of loot improves in such cases and results in a lower proportion of Shrapnel in loot. In other words, the use of items or consumables that provide increased Critical Hit Chance or Critical Damage can never have a negative effect on loot returns.
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I apologized as I am one of the players who comment about it but statistically, I am still right, even now. Most of the time, when I critically killed a mob, the loot return is definitely below 70% and what is more often is below 50%. Anyway, all these will not be important, if MA manage and able to make this game as I mentioned in Point 1 above. Thanks :)
 
yeeck said:
Point 1, we need a balance between fairness and competitive measurement/environment.
Not all players enjoy playing a fair game environment. It can be boring for some who prefer playing as competitive game environment.

MA, you can make it happen :)





I just want to share here. During Longtooth Migration period, I cycled total 37k ped of ammo on Old Fred share loots (24k) & Longtooth mission (13k). At the end, my total return was 48k ped comprised of 39k ped & 9k ped respectively.

It seems like I got lucky with Old Fred giving me a huge global share but..... the Longtooth mission return was approximately 69%.

My conclusion was, I am unhappy because this game discourage players to do and completing mission within a short period of time. If I have to wait like few days or few months or years to complete a mission, waiting for the good and auspicious timing... I have no comment.





Previously, I have complained about no loots but it wasn't much frustration compared to evade, evade,evade.
I am definitely appreciated that no loots had been removed but how about the evades.

The evades was normal between Sep, what happened to Oct now? I am having so much of evades again... Do evades add up to the % or loot return ? I am not interested, statistically they do more harm than good...

Please review and do something about mobs evade.





I apologized as I am one of the players who comment about it but statistically, I am still right, even now. Most of the time, when I critically killed a mob, the loot return is definitely below 70% and what is more often is below 50%. Anyway, all these will not be important, if MA manage and able to make this game as I mentioned in Point 1 above. Thanks :)
Click to expand...

seems like you are one of the guys that cycle and complain and dont even watch what they are fucking doing...
why the hell would you complain about evades? evades are great! im happy when the mob evades a lot. because that means i have more potential for a big loot on an easy mob. every evade gets given back in loot by 100% as its influencing the cost to kill.
jesus... just go and make some tests before you start to braindead complain about everything

and if you would watch what the players are talking about (me specifically) and what MA admits has been done then you would know that the balance between 15% kill cost returning mobs and 100% kill cost returning mobs has been changed. NO mob gives a 100% kill cost return anymore. none. zero. nada. the usual return of mobs now lays between 30 and 70% kill cost (the window got smaller) and they added a multiplier lower than the min multiplier of 3x before. now the min multiplier seems to be 1.5x and those happen a lot more frequent to make up for the missing max loot on non multiplied mobs. but yeah. go ahead and complain before reading, testing and thinking....
 
Me Really Never said:
seems like you are one of the guys that cycle and complain and dont even watch what they are fucking doing...
why the hell would you complain about evades? evades are great! im happy when the mob evades a lot. because that means i have more potential for a big loot on an easy mob. every evade gets given back in loot by 100% as its influencing the cost to kill.
jesus... just go and make some tests before you start to braindead complain about everything

and if you would watch what the players are talking about (me specifically) and what MA admits has been done then you would know that the balance between 15% kill cost returning mobs and 100% kill cost returning mobs has been changed. NO mob gives a 100% kill cost return anymore. none. zero. nada. the usual return of mobs now lays between 30 and 70% kill cost (the window got smaller) and they added a multiplier lower than the min multiplier of 3x before. now the min multiplier seems to be 1.5x and those happen a lot more frequent to make up for the missing max loot on non multiplied mobs. but yeah. go ahead and complain before reading, testing and thinking....
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I know you. YOU ARE THE SPECIAL ONE !

No comment to you. Cheers :cool:
 
wizz said:
So, you paid 37k and got back 48k.
And still complain?? :scratch2:
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Bro... I put a share there... I didn't said anything about complain. But I am unhappy, I stated clearly there.
Getting the extra is just ONE. But i am doing many missions. I don't need to explain more right?


As for some there, (not you my bro).... (he) live so well and doing so well in the game. So, that's why I don't even need to comment anything anymore.
 
Me Really Never said:
the funny thing is you said no comment but made a comment. anyway i think the facts have shown that you are obviously an idiot. nothing to add.
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Yup.
YOU ARE SOOOOOOOOOOOO SPECIAL, SMART & SUPER GOOD.

I so envy you :cool:
 
CozMoDan said:
Sorry I am not sure what you mean.
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You get less average loot per mob, but you kill more mobs.

Without buff, 10ped per mob. You get back 9.5ped per mob
With buff 8 ped per mob. You get back 8*0.95 per mob
Previous system was forr 3k hp mob @ 0.3pec per hp, you would always get back 9.5ped.

There's isn't a noticeable difference in buffs hunting normally, only if you used exploits (i.e. were part of the 2%).
So those scopes and sights that cost 100k are now worthless
 
Me Really Never said:
every evade gets given back in loot by 100% as its influencing the cost to kill.
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I must have missed where they say you get back 100% of evade shot cost. Can you link me to it?
Same goes for decay of faps, armor etc.
I doubt MA give you a compensation worth 100% of your cost, but only some part of it.
But please show me that post if I missed it.

Immortal said:
There's isn't a noticeable difference in buffs hunting normally, only if you used exploits (i.e. were part of the 2%).
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I would definitely not call it a exploit, since this was the way thr Calypso team went when introducing buffs and created these items. It was the very idea of the items, to increase your DPP to lower your cost to kill and thereby increase your returns.
 
Ekholm said:
I must have missed where they say you get back 100% of evade shot cost. Can you link me to it?
Same goes for decay of faps, armor etc.
I doubt MA give you a compensation worth 100% of your cost, but only some part of it.
But please show me that post if I missed it.



I would definitely not call it a exploit, since this was the way thr Calypso team went when introducing buffs and created these items. It was the very idea of the items, to increase your DPP to lower your cost to kill and thereby increase your returns.
Click to expand...

Ma stated that the kill cost is exactly proportional to the loot returned. and all tests ive done and seen from others support this. its easy to test. go out and shoot a 10 hp mob with a 20 max dmg gun. every evade mob with 1 evade will give exactly double the usual loot.
 
Ekholm said:
I would definitely not call it a exploit, since this was the way thr Calypso team went when introducing buffs and created these items. It was the very idea of the items, to increase your DPP to lower your cost to kill and thereby increase your returns.
Click to expand...

People exploited waves (well documented). Go read about eomons and vtols.
 
Immortal said:
People exploited waves (well documented). Go read about eomons and vtols.
Click to expand...

I know about that, but I would not say all the top 2% did this, and definitely not only people from the 2%.
 
Me Really Never said:
Ma stated that the kill cost is exactly proportional to the loot returned. and all tests ive done and seen from others support this. its easy to test. go out and shoot a 10 hp mob with a 20 max dmg gun. every evade mob with 1 evade will give exactly double the usual loot.
Click to expand...

You have done that ? Actually I did that with a 35 dmg gun. Killed 250 mobs (and did 3 runs and the loot went down with each run) and found nothing like what you are talking about.

Not to be rude but I checked your stats and am wondering how much info you have attained with only 154K in loot. I know that is just in globals, hofs, etc , but even if you double it to account for the other lower loots that is still just 300K. Just wondering ?
 
CozMoDan said:
You have done that ? Actually I did that with a 35 dmg gun. Killed 250 mobs (and did 3 runs and the loot went down with each run) and found nothing like what you are talking about.

Not to be rude but I checked your stats and am wondering how much info you have attained with only 154K in loot. I know that is just in globals, hofs, etc , but even if you double it to account for the other lower loots that is still just 300K. Just wondering ?
Click to expand...

yes ive done many many tests about that matter. one shotting 10 hp tabtabs for several k peds. there is some kind of non multi loot cap at approx 4x optimal cost per kill which would be around 12 pec per non multi loot on a 10hp mob. i killed about 12-15k of those with usually 10-15 pec per shot weapons. sometimes with higher but that didnt show any improvement due to the max non multi loot. and the return i had on the other runs was 110% tt over all those one shot kills.

i have to admit i havent done the test again after loot 2.1 change but i strongly suspect its still valid as they only changed top and bottom loot border.
every kill that gave 12 pec before gave up to 24 pec with one evade on them. this is pretty much 100% return. and as i said, MA practically stated it themselves as i asked about clarification on a few things and only a few hours later we got the dev notes 14 explaining lots of things.
and ive done the whole ultimate noob challenge on cyrene with a 2 shot kill weapon which showed the exact same stuff than i had on the tabtab regarding evades. thats another 15k kills on a 100hp mob. and after that i killed several thousand scout bot collector over the course of a few days and it was the same there as well.

and global value doesnt really mean jackshit as i am nearly all the time on either cyrene or toulan when im hunting. that means that 95% of my globals arent tracked. but in the months i where i play a lot i cycle roughly 3k peds daily and mostly on mobs that cost up to 5 ped per kill when im gambling a bit and for longer grinding sessions around 2 ped per kill. and yea i never got a stupid big loot like some others. but thats life i guess. i get my big loots on mining instead so im ok with that

and a side note: this account just got 2 years old (+-) and made it up to 250k skills naturally.
ive had an account before (which got deleted due to inactivity) which i played on between 2006 and 2012.
 
CozMoDan said:
You have done that ? Actually I did that with a 35 dmg gun. Killed 250 mobs (and did 3 runs and the loot went down with each run) and found nothing like what you are talking about.

Not to be rude but I checked your stats and am wondering how much info you have attained with only 154K in loot. I know that is just in globals, hofs, etc , but even if you double it to account for the other lower loots that is still just 300K. Just wondering ?
Click to expand...


If you going to try to comprehend or compare with (THE SPECIAL ONE), you are going to suffer man... (His) knowledge is beyond yours ;)

(He) said get more evades from the mobs and you will get all your loots back :cool:
 
yeeck said:
If you going to try to comprehend or compare with (THE SPECIAL ONE), you are going to suffer man... (His) knowledge is beyond yours ;)

(He) said get more evades from the mobs and you will get all your loots back :cool:
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No, he said evades "count towards loot" because they do, loot average is based primarily on cost. Skill misses, however, do not, and go towards the global bonus loot pool instead, so I would not recommend using unmaxed (Hit) to get "additional" evades, as those are misses and not evades.

Apart from that, there is no possible way to get any more or less evades, it's a flat 10% chance, so it's a moot point.

The point he is making, which is correct, is that loot average is based on cost, and evades are an example of incurred cost without any additional damage, but can be clearly seen as adding to the average loot return regardless.

Weapon efficiency and RNG also play a factor in loot outcomes.
 
Darkaruki said:
No, he said evades "count towards loot" because they do, loot average is based primarily on cost. Skill misses, however, do not, and go towards the global bonus loot pool instead, so I would not recommend using unmaxed (Hit) to get "additional" evades, as those are misses and not evades.

Apart from that, there is no possible way to get any more or less evades, it's a flat 10% chance, so it's a moot point.

The point he is making, which is correct, is that loot average is based on cost, and evades are an example of incurred cost without any additional damage, but can be clearly seen as adding to the average loot return regardless.

Weapon efficiency and RNG also play a factor in loot outcomes.
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I 100% understand you, bro :)
I recognized and respect on what you comment ya
That formula you mentioned there, it just a repeat over and over again, from thread to thread, channel to channel, player to player. Even I closed my eyes, I can sing that song.

BUT what I comment here, remains status quo :cool:


As for (THE SPECIAL ONE), he is SOOOOOOOOOOO SPECIAL. I have nothing to comment to (him).
Just praying to (him) to give me ALL his loots.
 
Me Really Never said:
yes ive done many many tests about that matter. one shotting 10 hp tabtabs for several k peds. there is some kind of non multi loot cap at approx 4x optimal cost per kill which would be around 12 pec per non multi loot on a 10hp mob. i killed about 12-15k of those with usually 10-15 pec per shot weapons. sometimes with higher but that didnt show any improvement due to the max non multi loot. and the return i had on the other runs was 110% tt over all those one shot kills.

i have to admit i havent done the test again after loot 2.1 change but i strongly suspect its still valid as they only changed top and bottom loot border.
every kill that gave 12 pec before gave up to 24 pec with one evade on them. this is pretty much 100% return. and as i said, MA practically stated it themselves as i asked about clarification on a few things and only a few hours later we got the dev notes 14 explaining lots of things.
and ive done the whole ultimate noob challenge on cyrene with a 2 shot kill weapon which showed the exact same stuff than i had on the tabtab regarding evades. thats another 15k kills on a 100hp mob. and after that i killed several thousand scout bot collector over the course of a few days and it was the same there as well.

and global value doesnt really mean jackshit as i am nearly all the time on either cyrene or toulan when im hunting. that means that 95% of my globals arent tracked. but in the months i where i play a lot i cycle roughly 3k peds daily and mostly on mobs that cost up to 5 ped per kill when im gambling a bit and for longer grinding sessions around 2 ped per kill. and yea i never got a stupid big loot like some others. but thats life i guess. i get my big loots on mining instead so im ok with that

and a side note: this account just got 2 years old (+-) and made it up to 250k skills naturally.
ive had an account before (which got deleted due to inactivity) which i played on between 2006 and 2012.
Click to expand...

Well the only I can say is I will start on my 677th run tomorrow. Each run yields about 275 small mobs and I get as many as 3 to 5 or 6 evades from time to time and many single evades and I can not see any difference in the loot and I don't think I would miss it if every time I did get an evade I would get double the loot. These small mobs are not much on loot but I don't think for the few globals I have got I can not remember a single one of them yielding any of the globals when one of the hits was a crit hit. It may have to do with the fact that when I do get a crit hit it usually takes only one or two shots to kill the mob. I will pay very close attention to that double thing from now on and the crit-hit thing also. But I have to say the double thing you talk does sound a bit crazy to me for one big reason that means that 10% of your mobs will be double because of the hit loss percentage.
 
CozMoDan said:
Well the only I can say is I will start on my 677th run tomorrow. Each run yields about 275 small mobs and I get as many as 3 to 5 or 6 evades from time to time and many single evades and I can not see any difference in the loot and I don't think I would miss it if every time I did get an evade I would get double the loot. These small mobs are not much on loot but I don't think for the few globals I have got I can not remember a single one of them yielding any of the globals when one of the hits was a crit hit. It may have to do with the fact that when I do get a crit hit it usually takes only one or two shots to kill the mob. I will pay very close attention to that double thing from now on and the crit-hit thing also. But I have to say the double thing you talk does sound a bit crazy to me for one big reason that means that 10% of your mobs will be double because of the hit loss percentage.
Click to expand...

why is it crazy? ye every 10th mob yields double the loot on average but you also paid double for it as you needed 2 shots. dont need to be a genius to see the correlation. and as i pointed out several times, MA stated it themselves...
but i guess there are people who believe the earth is flat as well...
 
CozMoDan said:
... I get as many as 3 to 5 or 6 evades from time to time and many single evades and I can not see any difference in the loot and I don't think I would miss it if every time I did get an evade I would get double the loot.
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Maybe I can help confirm things a bit here.
You get double the loot range if it takes 2 shots to kill instead of 1. On a one-shot kill (10 hp with say 10-20 hp weap) the first shot thus has to be an evade, otherwise the mob would be dead already.
Even so, loot range doesn't mean only the high end, but you will often get 6 pecs instead of 3 and 4 pecs instead of 2.
If you are shooting 10 shots to kill a mob then you have to know the ranges presented by whatever kill cost to see any difference. It doesn't change the basic observation, however, if you try that to see it for yourself.
 
My question is, do we definitely know at this point if overkills are now good, as in do we still need to use finisher weapons with lower damage to chip off the last bit of HP of a mob or can we just continue killing it with the main weapon?
 
ALEXANDER said:
My question is, do we definitely know at this point if overkills are now good, as in do we still need to use finisher weapons with lower damage to chip off the last bit of HP of a mob or can we just continue killing it with the main weapon?
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Imho overkill is still bad.
Maybe less bad than before, but still bad.

Lets say you get that average 95% return.
That means that from overkill you also get 95% return.
Meaning you lose 5% on that overkill.


So overkilling with 30 dmg will cost you 5% x 10 pec is 0,5 pec per overkill shot.

And since most get so horny from a 0,0001 pec advantage per shot, wasting 0,5 pec per mob is an unforgivable amount!!
 
wizz said:
Imho overkill is still bad.
Maybe less bad than before, but still bad.

Lets say you get that average 95% return.
That means that from overkill you also get 95% return.
Meaning you lose 5% on that overkill.


So overkilling with 30 dmg will cost you 5% x 10 pec is 0,5 pec per overkill shot.

And since most get so horny from a 0,0001 pec advantage per shot, wasting 0,5 pec per mob is an unforgivable amount!!
Click to expand...

well 95% is 95% return no matter how high the cost. thats why finisher are useless now. especially as you need time to switch to the finisher weapon and in the meantime the mob may regen a bit making it even less eco to kill it with a finisher. but loot is directly tied to cost to kill so it really doesnt matter a single bit.
and when you kill mobs that give good MU stuff with higher cost to kill you yield more of the MU stuff possibly.
 
Me Really Never said:
well 95% is 95% return no matter how high the cost. thats why finisher are useless now. especially as you need time to switch to the finisher weapon and in the meantime the mob may regen a bit making it even less eco to kill it with a finisher. but loot is directly tied to cost to kill so it really doesnt matter a single bit.
and when you kill mobs that give good MU stuff with higher cost to kill you yield more of the MU stuff possibly.
Click to expand...


Oppps, mis-read the poster above
 
Me Really Never said:
well 95% is 95% return no matter how high the cost. thats why finisher are useless now. especially as you need time to switch to the finisher weapon and in the meantime the mob may regen a bit making it even less eco to kill it with a finisher. but loot is directly tied to cost to kill so it really doesnt matter a single bit.
and when you kill mobs that give good MU stuff with higher cost to kill you yield more of the MU stuff possibly.
Click to expand...


lol!!

No problem mate, you just go on overkilling. Fine by me.

As you said, 95% is 95% return.
I say 5% loss is 5% loss.
And I'd rather have a 5% loss over a smaller amount if that's possible.

Also you forget that overkill decreases your efficiency.

The lower the cost to kill a mob, the better.
And overkilling doesnt lower the cost to kill now does it?

You're contradicting yourself as you claimed many many times that the more loot instances your create for less cost, the better.
overkilling only increases the cost to kill and as result gets you less loot instances for the same ped.

But as I said, I dont mind if you keep overkilling as you will only fill the loot pool for the rest.

So, thanks on behalf of the playerbase.
 
Me Really Never said:
and when you kill mobs that give good MU stuff with higher cost to kill you yield more of the MU stuff possibly.
Click to expand...

The lower kill cost the more MU stuff and less sharpnel you get. MA said so them self. But suppose they are wrong and you are right.
You probably made a 1k ped hunting run and know how everything works by now.
 
I see no problem with overkill, in fact I am sure that if you add up the time it takes to swap to a (usually slower) weapon, and then swap back for each kill that your kill rate per hour over time goes down quite a bit, decreasing efficiency enough to not justify the time spent.

Especially if server issues make swapping items nearly unbearable.

MA already stated that costs come back with 2.0, it seems returns are more based on PED spent, and volume of kills, not damage done, but most people want to continue to use markup items like (L), enhancers, pills...all drains(if u pay markups) taking away from the 9x%.

I really see no reason to have a finisher anymore on the basis of time spent, and MA stating costs come back...this should include the full cost of the shot, and often I think it actually adds to the base loot modifier if you can get a higher cost shot in for the kill regardless of hp left without a crit. This ofc assumes a weapon that is fairly matched for the mob not 250 damage hits on punies...though it might be an interesting test. I assume you will hit a cap on most mobs to some point still.
 
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